NL100 KK against 4bet
 

hello guys,

i want to post a hand where i dont know who i have to play it in the right way, sorry for ma bad english [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

stats mp3: vpip: 21%, pfr 7%

Everest Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50/$1 (HH Converter by Kreatief)

CO ($192.00)
Button ($107.05)
SB ($228.55) (Hero)
BB ($34.90)
MP2 ($76.60)
MP3 ($213.75)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $2.00</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $5.00</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $18.00</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $31.00</font>, Hero ????

raise, call or maybe fold?

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

This is a tough spot as a 4-bet min raise will usually result in villain flipping over AA. Call and hope to spike a king, I don't think you can fold KK PF.

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

21/7, how many hands is that over? I would call and seriously consider folding the flop. I'm like everyone else here and 'never fold KK pf' but this is a spot where I find it so hard to see how he could have AK or QQ.

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

Given you are deep, he doesn't seem aggressive + 2 min-re-raises, i call and see a flop. You can set mine here.

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

I normally hate these threads, but this really is a pretty sick spot given stacks and villain's stats. I'd like calling so much more if we had position...but given how small his raise is, I think it's the only option really.

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

21/7 over 100 hands. it was the first time i played with him and i dont see him making some crazy moves.

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

so here are the result. i decided to call and hope to hit a king because im sure he has aa.

Everest Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50/$1 (HH Converter by Kreatief)

CO ($192.00)
Button ($107.05)
SB ($228.55) (Hero)
BB ($34.90)
MP2 ($76.60)
MP3 ($213.75)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $2.00</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $5.00</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $18.00</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $31.00</font>, Hero calls $13.00,

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( $70.5 )
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets $40.00</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>,

Results:
Outcome: MP3 wins $62.00

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

yeah, i like calling here and seeing a flop

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
so here are the result. i decided to call and hope to hit a king because im sure he has aa.

Everest Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50/$1 (HH Converter by Kreatief)

CO ($192.00)
Button ($107.05)
SB ($228.55) (Hero)
BB ($34.90)
MP2 ($76.60)
MP3 ($213.75)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $2.00</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $5.00</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $18.00</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $31.00</font>, Hero calls $13.00,

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( $70.5 )
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets $40.00</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>,

Results:
Outcome: MP3 wins $62.00

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a problem with spots like that. I decide that I call, cause I have to set mine. Then villain bets small on all three streets and each street i think, "Well my qq only got to be good here line one time in four" and after he shows me aces at the showdown i realize a big chunk of my stack is one ): I wonder how to better avoid them

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so here are the result. i decided to call and hope to hit a king because im sure he has aa.

Everest Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50/$1 (HH Converter by Kreatief)

CO ($192.00)
Button ($107.05)
SB ($228.55) (Hero)
BB ($34.90)
MP2 ($76.60)
MP3 ($213.75)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $2.00</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $5.00</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $18.00</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $31.00</font>, Hero calls $13.00,

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ( $70.5 )
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets $40.00</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>,

Results:
Outcome: MP3 wins $62.00

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a problem with spots like that. I decide that I call, cause I have to set mine. Then villain bets small on all three streets and each street i think, "Well my qq only got to be good here line one time in four" and after he shows me aces at the showdown i realize a big chunk of my stack is one ): I wonder how to better avoid them

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

stats mp3 for how many hands?

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

Guys wtf... I think everyone's "call and see a flop" advice is Horrible unless we are doing it with 22+.

22=KK vs AA.

Call the flop.

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
Guys wtf... I think everyone's "call and see a flop" advice is Horrible unless we are doing it with 22+.

22=KK vs AA.

Call the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that most people saying setmine would setmine with 22 (once you get to the spot where you're putting $13 more in).

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

Ok - But we shouldnt be doing this. We don't make enough. If we are calling here with KK to set mine (cannot believe I typed that) then just fold instead.

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

I disagree. If you're planning to be fancy with your KK you better c/r flop and fold push.

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok - But we shouldnt be doing this. We don't make enough. If we are calling here with KK to set mine (cannot believe I typed that) then just fold instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are getting 18:1 if we stack him and against somebody who has AA very often. You don't think we make enough?

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

18:1 implied is enough to set mine, especially considering his range is heavily weighted towards AA. So folding PF is clearly out of the question.

OP, I think you played it against this particular villain.

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

just fold KK... its not a very good hand

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

We are getting closer to 16:1 arent we? And no thats not enough.

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

i Was being blatantly sarcastic at folding pf. I just dont htink calling and folding a J ghih flop is very good.

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
We are getting closer to 16:1 arent we?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's 2+18+31= 51 in the pot. 183 remaining in villain's stack, so if we stack him we make 234. We have to call 13 to see a flop, 234/13 = 18.

18:1.

[ QUOTE ]
And no thats not enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL?

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We are getting closer to 16:1 arent we?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's 2+18+31= 51 in the pot. 183 remaining in villain's stack, so if we stack him we make 234. We have to call 13 to see a flop, 234/13 = 18.

18:1.

[ QUOTE ]
And no thats not enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL?

[/ QUOTE ]


Ok. Sorry I added wrong I think. Anyways we are barely getting this odds to set mine

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

The thing is you don't need all that high of implied odds here, because we are very confident that your opponent has exactly AA here, it is different than the cases in your link where we don't know the villians range.

I would think getting 10:1 here would be a profitable call, 16 or 18:1 is a no-brainer.

Actually this is a 5-bet not a 4-bet correct?

Anyway I always get myself in trouble on these type of flops, thinking the villian is betting so small, maybe I am good here. You made a nice fold on the flop, one that I wish I would make more regularily.

Re: NL100 KK against 4bet
 

[ QUOTE ]

Ok. Sorry I added wrong I think. Anyways we are barely getting this odds to set mine

[/ QUOTE ]

That post should be applied in situations where we have a villain 3-betting us with a wide range. That's not the case at all here.

You'll notice that he calculates the minimum implied odds we need to be 11.7:1. This is far less than 18:1. However, we must note that the calculation assumes:

1) Villain stacks off every time we hit
2) Hero stacks off every time he's beat

Although (1) will not be completely true in practice, it is a decent assumption to make here since we know villain's range is heavily weighted towards AA and the pot is big. Secondly, if we are willing to get away from AKx type flops, then (2) may not be true.

What this all means is that the set odds needed in this case are overstated by that post.