I turn a set and check-call
 

The villian in this hand is a tight-passive regular. He is older, and probably thinks I'm on the verge of being a LAG (which is entirely relative). I've been showing down winners (albeit weak ones) and my image is probably pretty solid. I've never seen him cap the flop before, and when he bets/raises big bet streets, he has close to the nuts. I've never seen him cap any street before ever.

I raise in EP with TT, on call behind me, he calls on the button, BB calls.

Flop is 234tt.

BB checks, I bet, he raises, BB folds, I trey, he 4-bets, I call.

Turn: T

I C/C

River: 9

I C/C

C/R the turn and call a trey? Fold the river UI?

I can't think of a good way to play this hand OOP, maybe you guys can help me out here.

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

Isn't there a good chance he flopped a set and correctly puts you on an overpair? There's no way you can fold the river UI. Although you're behind A5 (and a much less likely 65 since he's tight), on the turn, you're ahead of the small sets as well as a tight passive AA/KK line (maybe not your game, but I see this with some frequency).

The turn card can't scare him that much, so I like a turn c/r followed by calling a 3-bet and c/c'ing the river, or b/c'ing the river if your turn c/r is just called.

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

I can't imagine ever folding top set here. If his 4 bet on the flop proves absolutely that he has the nuts, then you should fold there, not draw to a runner runner boat.

Actually even if you think his four bet means either a set or a straight you should fold there rather than draw to a two-outer.

Is it possible he could have OESD and nut flush draw and play it that way on the flop though? I imagine he would be a favorite over you at that point.

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

If he's as passive as you say and you've never seen him cap the flop before, then you can fold to his flop cap. I wouldn't love it, but against this type of player you'll save money in the long run.

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't there a good chance he flopped a set and correctly puts you on an overpair? There's no way you can fold the river UI. Although you're behind A5 (and a much less likely 65 since he's tight), on the turn, you're ahead of the small sets as well as a tight passive AA/KK line (maybe not your game, but I see this with some frequency).

The turn card can't scare him that much, so I like a turn c/r followed by calling a 3-bet and c/c'ing the river, or b/c'ing the river if your turn c/r is just called.

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No offense to you personally.. but this is yet another example of "aggrobot" thinking... ignoring reads and information and forging ahead because "we have a set." This is level one thinking.

If the old villain is passive (and there is no reason to doubt the OP's highly detailed description) there is NO WAY he'd 4-bang a small set on the flop with a straightened board. Passives don't floor it when there's even the slightest chance of being behind. A passive would maybe raise and call a r/r at most.. but more likely a passive would even just call your flop bet and see what the turn brings.

Fear of folding is the number one attribute of, guess what? A fish/donkey. There are better spots to turn a set of tens than this. The most aggressive you can afford to be here, under these circumstances, is to c/c this to the river and lose less than you might have.

In other words, OP played the hand very well. The only slight mistake was arguably 3-banging the flop.. but then he probably wouldn't have gained the info from the 4bet and wouldn't have slowed down on the more expensive streets.

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

how does a tight passive ever have A5 or 56 here after you raise PF? i would automuck it pf, does that make me "king nit?"

unless he really is a loose passive, not a tight passive

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

* grunch *

I routinely play against these tight-passive older regulars at my live 2/4 table.

Preflop I play the same way.

Flop I also play the same way. His raise could be 55 or perhaps a smaller pair than TT. However, it might be AA..JJ. Once he 4bets though I think we can pretty much narrow it down to a flopped set (most likely) or an outside chance of a flopped straight (not as likely, because do tight old guys play A5s or 56s to a raise with no one else in the pot?).

I think turn I check/raise because there's no way an old tight guy is 4betting a draw, so he's going to bet if checked to. As well, I just think there's much more chance he's flopped a set here rather than a straight. I call down if 3bet cuz I'm not good enough to fold top set; otherwise I'm leading any river.

GcluelessnoobG

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

The passives I play with would call a single raise in the BB with 65s every time. Wouldn't any good player? Just because a player is passive doesn't make him an idiot.

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
The passives I play with would call a single raise in the BB with 65s every time. Wouldn't any good player? Just because a player is passive doesn't make him an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

he called 2 cold on the BUTTON

recheck OP's post

and yes calling two cold there with 56s or A5s after a raise by a sane EP player and 1 caller is idiotic and something no winning player on this forum should ever do.

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

[ QUOTE ]

If the old villain is passive (and there is no reason to doubt the OP's highly detailed description) there is NO WAY he'd 4-bang a small set on the flop with a straightened board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tight passive old guys aren't completely stupid; they know they are ahead against a preflop raiser on this board almost every time when they've flopped a set. If they had of flopped a set on a TJQ board (say TT) then they'd be more likely to play it passively.

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

i would like more bets to go in on the big streets; preferably the turn. i think his range is lower sets more than it is made straight, in which case we're ahead a lot on the turn. i think c/r and call down a 3 is probably okay. i don't think b/3b is quite as good although it's more of a hunch than anything else because when 4 bets go in we're behind a lot.

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

Things I believe to be true:

There are no hands that an actual tight player has that beat us on the turn.

If the player is a fairly loose cold caller, then A5s, 44-22 and other pocket pairs are in his range. When we're talking 65s, I think we're talking really loose.

If he is in fact really tight and really passive, he can hold AA-KK here.

A *relatively* tight passive player may get active with 44 on that flop. He has little reason to believe you have A5 or 65 and views you as a LAG. Just because he's passive against all the other passive players doesn't mean he doesn't realize how strong top set is against your EP raise.

Count, I think you play a little weak tight sometimes, you think I play a little aggrobot sometimes. Maybe we can learn something from each other.

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

well. if he has 22, 33, 44, A5 or 56 you don't have the odds to make it past the flop. speaking of the flop, why did you 3bet? does he raise worse hands than one pair on a flop like that?

anyway, against that range you need 5.33-1 to call down when you hit your set on the turn. i think you're only getting around 4-1. still, you must call the turn with the FH/quads redraw and at that point on the river you're getting a very good price that he's "overplaying" a set.

to keep him from checking through a "weak" hand in his range, bet/folding the river seems like a decent option. mostly, the correct play on this hand is exclusively read-dependent. if you can include two pair hands or something you definitely need to give more action with top set. in fact, an argument could be made that given your image you need to be giving more action. but as i said, this is all read-dependent.

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

What were you hoping to catch on the turn? If you can't raise when you hit your gin card just fold the flop.

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

lots of interesting discussion on this hand concerning the villains holdings...i'd like to put in my thoughts, probably all has been said before

preflop possible hands of villain: 22, 33, 44, A5s, 65s, 54s, middle pair JJ-99...cold calling from the button with two players already in the pot and the blinds to act really doesn't seem too loose for all of the above hands, with potential of 4 opponents in the hand & having the button there are implied odds & position enough to justify cold calling i believe...43s, 32s too weak to play

flop action seems to say "made hand, but vulnerable"... thus middle pocket pairs are out (not made), and 65s too (65 is the nuts here so probably a slow play to the turn, why drive out the bb? just call and instead raise on the turn as it gets as much money in the pot as capping on the flop)

the flop action looks like an attempt to drive out gut shot draw that beat a set, split A5, or 54 two pair..

probability of each one of the above hands -- i think this is the calculation:

low set or A5s straight...6 x 3 combos of low set, 4 x 1 combo of A5s, 54s 4 x 1 - 22 out of 26 we are ahead on the turn when the T hits...

thus check/raise on the turn is the play, and call a 3 bet on the turn because of outs to make a house and beat the straight...or even leading out to three bet could be good to...here i think c/r is better as villain would likely just call out lead out or quit if we 3 bet him on the turn, but he might call a check/raise...does he think we are aggro? 3rd level thinking needed here to decide c/r or lead/3bet

i guess the designation of loose/passive is not precise enough for us all, as we each have our own interpretation of what those words mean when it comes to hand selection...and as you might guess, i figure betting is often protection motivated...

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

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i would like more bets to go in on the big streets; preferably the turn. i think his range is lower sets more than it is made straight, in which case we're ahead a lot on the turn. i think c/r and call down a 3 is probably okay. i don't think b/3b is quite as good although it's more of a hunch than anything else because when 4 bets go in we're behind a lot.

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Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

there's also a small chance he has aa imo

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

mtn, i most definitely plead guilty to having a weak-tight streak in me. I try to balance that tendency by playing decent cards and getting my good hands to showdown.. And I wasn't necessarily calling you an "aggrobot" (lol) personally.. just that there is a definite tendency of some to over-push value so thin that it's actually creating value for the opponent with a better hand.
But all told, I can probably learn more from aggrobots than they can from me. Yes, I have the "tight" part of TAG down cold.

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
there's also a small chance he has aa imo

[/ QUOTE ]I think the entire hand hinges on how accurate OP's read is. If villain is really tight-passive, then he was most definitely behind on the flop, but most definitely ahead on the turn. If so, I also think the chances are very good villain has AA.

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
there's also a small chance he has aa imo

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my first thought.

-McGee

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

I think it's way, way more likely he flopped a set than has a straight. Even if he isn't terribly comfortable getting heavily involved without the nuts, on a baby flop like that he's going to push a set pretty hard because even he knows that he's ahead 99% of the time against a pf raiser.

I think I definitely c/r the turn to guarantee getting at least three bets in on the turn and river. I don't want to donk it and have Mr. Tight Passive go into his candy coated showdown shell on me and miss a bet. I would just call a threetown and c/c a river bet. I'm playing as if ahead until he three bets me, and even then it would be real tough for me not to pop it one more time. I think it's illegal to fold a set on the river for one bet on a board this dry.

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

I'd put him on AA, KK, QQ, or JJ. Hard to see him sticking around PF with A5 or 56. But no reraise? Maybe not with JJ. Maybe he put you on JJ-KK and figured he'd see a flop with A5. Who knows.

Only gigantic mistake here is folding but I'd be unable to stop raising with a set of 10s. Would he bet out with the nut straight? Maybe, but with JJ I would be playing just like him and oblivious to your set.

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

when i play against tight passives that view me as an aggro-lag kid they are just waiting for the chance to flop a set and go "crazy" on me. a set is just as likely as A5 or 65 imo. i mean, 2 3 4 flop, 44 HAS to be the nuts vs a preflop raisor right?

3 combos of 22
3 combos of 33
3 combos of 44
4 combos of A5s
4 combos of 65s

the sets have a slight lead here combometricly. how else would you expect this dude to play a set? and don't forget the times this type of player will just coldcall with AA-JJ waiting for safe flops to pound you.

in the games i play hardly anybody is that passive though i have certainly met players who are really passive and it would be best to just call down i suppose.

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

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a set is way, way, more likely as A5 or 65 imo.

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FYP. It's a tight passive coldcaller. How is this ever anything but a small pocket pair?

Re: I turn a set and check-call
 

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Fear of folding is the number one attribute of, guess what? A fish/donkey.

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if i never folded an overpair in my life i think i would still do okay. certainly there are worse things that characterize a fish/donkey.

fear of calling is actually the number one attribute of mediocre winning players who are afraid to look stupid.