Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

I've been playing NL online for the last two years and moved to vegas a couple months ago with the intention of playing live cash games for a living. I've saved up 1500 to get me started in the 1/2 games and I have a table waiting job to back me up. I just wanted to get advice from the locals that have already cut their teeth playing 1/2nl live in vegas.

My general strategy is raising up big cards and big pairs preflop to isolate against 1-2 players, and limping connecters and small pairs and going for the implied odds of hitting the sets, flushes straights etc against the fish that overplay their hands.

I've mainly been playing at Mirage but I was wondering where peoples favorite places and times to play are. Is it possible to get rated and comp'd anywhere for 1/2nl?

Any general advice and pitfalls to avoid I'd appreciate.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

Try the Venetian 1/2 NL. Full of suckers and you get comped a little for playing.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

study more.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

My advice is to get that bankroll increased as soon as possible. You only have about 7 buy-ins and that could go quickly with a downswing. The Excalibur spreads a 1/3 NL game which is generally pretty juicy and they bring food out to the players around diner time (hot dogs, hamburgers, etc.). Game selection is pretty generous at that level. Most 1/2 NL games will be fishy enough to grind out a living. If you play at Stations Casino or Coast Casino properties, you can generally get comp dollars for every hour you play. I heard the games at the Palms are pretty good with lots of action. But again, the biggest piece of advice is to get a proper bankroll, you want to have 15-20 buyins if you want to play professionally, so that means about $3000 - $4000 to play with, so that you don't go broke. I moved away from Vegas a year ago, so hopefully what I told you still applies.

Good Luck!

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

As far as comps go, you can get a buffet ticket at the Mirage a couple times a week. You just need to play 3+ hours in a day. You have to ask the floor manager to get it.

Places like the Venetian actually have a player card which gets you comped $1/hour.


The primary strategy for 1-2 no-limit is "make a hand, bet it, and get paid off".

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

I'd really get that bankroll up asap. Especially playing for a living, you want more buy-ins than a normal recreational player.

And keep reading and studying. This is something I didn't do and it hurt my game a lot. Keep a journal for poker if you have to.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

which book would apply the best for playing low stakes NL live? I've all the "must read" poker books and i'm a cardrunners member. But if I was going to reread something to sharpen my game, what would apply? other than caro's book of course.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

ok well the 1/2 game at Imperial is absolutely ridiculously soft. If there's a softer game during the drinking hours, I don't know of it.

But as everyone said, you're massively jumping the gun with your roll and even probably your skill level. Sounds like you're taking a much too simplistic strategic view of things.

Can you beat the 1/2 game online at all ? I mean if you can break even at that you'll crush the IP game. But if you're a net loses at the 1/2 game online, it's not time to go at this with any kind of ambition...

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

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But if you're a net loses at the 1/2 game online, it's not time to go at this with any kind of ambition...

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He has a job. He gets a new bankroll every payday.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

ya I also just re-read and saw "I've been playing NL online for the last two years "

Ya you can beat the IP game. go for it.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

i'm in the same boat kinda as this guy but ive been playing for around 4 years online now beating the games, although i just can't stand the online games anymore. It's not the same as a live game, not even close.

i could play for hours to stack someone at a rate of 60-80 hands per hour. but when i hit a casino i walk away with two stacks in 40 minutes. The games at casinos are crazy soft.

I've been saving up a bankroll for casino niagara, and the fallsview, which i live near ( in niagara falls canada. Usually when i play there i play the 1/2 games (100 max), so i only really need 2k.

usually when i play there i just steal blinds if I can to stay afloat, till i hit a monster or get some big pockets.
then when im a deep stack i just play more lag and just clean up.

have not had the opporitunity or the bankroll to play in the higher stakes games yet but look forward to it one day.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

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My general strategy is raising up big cards and big pairs preflop to isolate against 1-2 players, and limping connecters and small pairs and going for the implied odds of hitting the sets, flushes straights etc against the fish that overplay their hands.

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Vegas 1/2 doesn't work that way. Much of the time if you make a standard raise of 3 to 5 times the big blind, you'll get 3 or 4 or 6 callers. Make it 7 or 8 times and you get no callers. Seldom can you get only 1 or 2 no matter what you bet.

In addition to the bankroll advice from others, I would sit in a few games to watch how they go. Don't play anything, just pay your blinds for 3 orbits, then go find another game. 30 or 40 bucks invested this way can save you some bucks when you're ready to play for real.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

he's not kidding about how those games go. I'm living in CA temporarily, and I went out to Vegas a couple weekends to try some live 1/2.

I thought the same strategy would work fine, but it's so different. I still haven't gotten used to it. I got lucky the first week and cleared like $1000 on a $150 buy-in. I mostly played very tight and only pushed my bets when I was a big favorite.

the next week, I went again, expecting the same outcome. It goes without saying that I lost most of what I'd won the first week, and was baffled by the result.

Expect to see a LOT of longball at 1/2 in Vegas. People will sit down with $3000 in their pockets and continually go all-in with their $200 buy-ins until they have a $400-$500 stack at the table. Then, those same folks will bet huge (a $20 standard raise is not unusual), and bully all the tourists out of their $300-$400 that they came to play with, usually $50 or so at a time.

Until you can figure out how to neutralize or somehow take advantage of that kind of play, expect to be very frustrated at Vegas 1/2.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
which book would apply the best for playing low stakes NL live? I've all the "must read" poker books and i'm a cardrunners member. But if I was going to reread something to sharpen my game, what would apply? other than caro's book of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the book you need. Specific to low limit No Limit cash games:

http://www.amazon.com/No-Limit-Texas-Hol...5598&sr=8-1

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

awesome. thanks! I just ordered the new 2+2 book that also seems to cover the same ground.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
he's not kidding about how those games go. I'm living in CA temporarily, and I went out to Vegas a couple weekends to try some live 1/2.

I thought the same strategy would work fine, but it's so different. I still haven't gotten used to it. I got lucky the first week and cleared like $1000 on a $150 buy-in. I mostly played very tight and only pushed my bets when I was a big favorite.

the next week, I went again, expecting the same outcome. It goes without saying that I lost most of what I'd won the first week, and was baffled by the result.

Expect to see a LOT of longball at 1/2 in Vegas. People will sit down with $3000 in their pockets and continually go all-in with their $200 buy-ins until they have a $400-$500 stack at the table. Then, those same folks will bet huge (a $20 standard raise is not unusual), and bully all the tourists out of their $300-$400 that they came to play with, usually $50 or so at a time.

Until you can figure out how to neutralize or somehow take advantage of that kind of play, expect to be very frustrated at Vegas 1/2.

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man your whiny...if you lost 1k at a 1/2 table in b+m then you have alot more to think about..i have NEVER lost that many buyins at a casino at that level. You should be analyzing your game.

if your losing 5 buyins in one night at one table, then your just playing horribly. I dont care what anyone here says about variance. At that level the variance shouldnt be that high. if people are going all in all the time then just wait till you have a big pair and call and stack them...i dont see the problem here.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

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man your whiny...if you lost 1k at a 1/2 table in b+m then you have alot more to think about..i have NEVER lost that many buyins at a casino at that level. You should be analyzing your game.

if your losing 5 buyins in one night at one table, then your just playing horribly. I dont care what anyone here says about variance. At that level the variance shouldnt be that high. if people are going all in all the time then just wait till you have a big pair and call and stack them...i dont see the problem here.

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yeah, i understand I'm probably sucking somehow to've lost back what I won, but at least $300 of that was losing to 3-outers and flush draws when I was ahead with all my chips in.

The rest is because I haven't figured out how to deal with the guy who will raise you on every card regardless of what you have. I got sucked out on by people outdrawing me when I bet the pot with top pair so many times it was ridiculous.

When the cards are going your way, having a lot of players who don't give a flying fart about their $1000 is great. When the cards aren't cooperating, that can be your death. . . .

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

when people re-raise you alot like that you have to either play big pot poker or be a nit..if someone goes over top of me alot ill just go waaaay overtop and see what he does, most of the time they fold like an umbrella..

as for people drawing out on you, thats just bad luck. If you get a really good draw just start REALLY overbetting the pot with them and throw people off. make people have to commit their stacks on their crappy draws and two outers.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

yeah, I think that's exactly my problem out there: I don't really know anything about "big pot poker". I wasn't exactly expecting to see that at 1/2. When I did, I just avoided it at first and got lucky. of course, that didn't last.

Any suggestions on where to begin learning about big pot?

My background is mostly in SnGs, and small-stakes multitable tourneys, which I do ok at. (5-10% ROI)

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

If you want to be a pro you have to play like a pro and there's no better book to teach you than Play Poker Like the Pros by Hellmuth, the name of the book says it all.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

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awesome. thanks! I just ordered the new 2+2 book that also seems to cover the same ground.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not even close. Professional NL Hold'em by Flynn, Metha, and Miller will make your eyes pop out when it comes out in 2 weeks (I have already read some of it). The other book is meh at best.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

man your whiny...if you lost 1k at a 1/2 table in b+m then you have alot more to think about..i have NEVER lost that many buyins at a casino at that level. You should be analyzing your game.

if your losing 5 buyins in one night at one table, then your just playing horribly. I dont care what anyone here says about variance. At that level the variance shouldnt be that high. if people are going all in all the time then just wait till you have a big pair and call and stack them...i dont see the problem here.

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You sir are a douche and clearly don't understand variance at all. He also didn't say he lost in one night.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

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Then, those same folks will bet huge (a $20 standard raise is not unusual)

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Uh, standard at 1/2?

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to be a pro you have to play like a pro and there's no better book to teach you than Play Poker Like the Pros by Hellmuth, the name of the book says it all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you Hellmuth's relative or best friend? This book is not good, but I guess a search in Books & Publications will tell you that.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

Nice Phil spam.......

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]

Can you beat the 1/2 game online at all ? I mean if you can break even at that you'll crush the IP game. But if you're a net loses at the 1/2 game online, it's not time to go at this with any kind of ambition...

[/ QUOTE ]

Live 1/2 plays more like .05/.10 online.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]

Expect to see a LOT of longball at 1/2 in Vegas. People will sit down with $3000 in their pockets and continually go all-in with their $200 buy-ins until they have a $400-$500 stack at the table. Then, those same folks will bet huge (a $20 standard raise is not unusual), and bully all the tourists out of their $300-$400 that they came to play with, usually $50 or so at a time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been in Vegas almost a month now and haven't seen ANY of this. A couple guys I've seen buy in short over and over and get it in on the flop frequently, but most players are just retarded. They limp call preflop and check fold the flop almost all the time. Getting to showdown as an aggressive player is so rare it's not even funny, and you are rarely going to get it all in because generally live people don't like to call big bets and at 1/2nl they won't raise you without the mortal nuts.

I've seen sets folded countless times on the flop and even middling flushes folded on unpaired boards as well. basically none of these were good laydowns.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Can you beat the 1/2 game online at all ? I mean if you can break even at that you'll crush the IP game. But if you're a net loses at the 1/2 game online, it's not time to go at this with any kind of ambition...

[/ QUOTE ]

Live 1/2 plays more like .05/.10 online.

[/ QUOTE ]

Make that .01-.02

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

I like to think I'm succesfull at 100NL online...over 50,000 hands. Live 1/2NL in Vegas is very fishy. Plays like micro stakes, but with more money. I have had a problem live being called down with middle pair [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
The one thing I cant agree with is haveing people fold sets, flushes...if they hit...they will go broke or bank with it.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

thanks TT!


OP: Don't forget to check out the master stickies in the SSNL and MSNL forums. Plenty of meat to chew on there.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

[ QUOTE ]
thanks TT!


OP: Don't forget to check out the master stickies in the SSNL and MSNL forums. Plenty of meat to chew on there.

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I wouldn't say it if it wasnt true Matt... its going to be a very popular book. Congrats to you and the boys! When the book comes out it would be great if you start a "B&M NL" thread here to discuss how players can adjust to the table texture in a live game. There is a common thread among some in this forum that they assume B&M and online games "play" different, it would be great if you can discuss how the concepts are the same between online and live with adjustments according to table texture, opponent information, etc. I think it would help a lot of players who are hard-core B&M forum fans who may not visit the Full Ring NL or SSNL forums that often!

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

As a dealer at the IP I can verify he is not kidding. The games are so soft it is crazy. It is a high variance game with people calling down with 2nd pair, etc. Buy-ins are capped at 200, min of 60. You get $2 per hour when you are playing in cash games for comps... which goes a long way in that place as food is cheap.

Stay away from the buffet, 5th floor is good tho.

I work days, so if you are in there feel free to stop in and say Hello. Only bald white guy on Days... can't miss me.

[ QUOTE ]
ok well the 1/2 game at Imperial is absolutely ridiculously soft. If there's a softer game during the drinking hours, I don't know of it.

But as everyone said, you're massively jumping the gun with your roll and even probably your skill level. Sounds like you're taking a much too simplistic strategic view of things.

Can you beat the 1/2 game online at all ? I mean if you can break even at that you'll crush the IP game. But if you're a net loses at the 1/2 game online, it's not time to go at this with any kind of ambition...

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

So what kind of hourly can one expect at 1/2NL? I can't think it would be more than $10 an hour after rake/tips....

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

For some people, yes.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

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So what kind of hourly can one expect at 1/2NL? I can't think it would be more than $10 an hour after rake/tips....

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I have heard that an expert player can sustain $15 per hour in these games.

Obviously most players who can do that move up and don't play in these games. Check out this thread where the OP is making $40/hr in super soft 1/2 games over almost 400 hours, though even he admits that that is through good game selection and he doubts the games that allow this will be around all year.

I would hazard to guess that a decent 2+2er who can beat 25NKL or 50NL online could average $10/hour over the long term if they could avoid boredom or tilt.

Anyone got other opinions or experience?

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

My 1/2 rate is pretty insane - somewhere in the 70 per hour range, but very limited hours (I only play 1/2 when waiting for something, generally 30-40 min sessions).

I honestly think 20-25 per hour is reasonably sustainable over extended periods, providing good psychological management and game selection.

Reality is that's live poker - all short term results and quite frankly, a long term highly profitable 1/2 NL player should not exist as the $$EV will be higher elsewhere.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

Yeah, think of it like this, a player with a 20BI roll ($4k) and a true (but unknown) winrate of $15/hr:

* would need 800-1000 hours of play to get in 25k hands to establish his winrate as something other than variance

* but would hit the $10k BR requirement for the 2-5 game in an average of only 400 hours

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

the thing that i have always found interesting about these types of discussions is that for me and maybe some others is that a hourly rate of say 20-25 per hour would be more then enough for me to live my life. so playing 1-2 no-limit hold'em in the right areas of the country should allow a good player to obtain the result with the least amount of risk. the most i have ever made per hour at a "real job" was 10.25 per hour being told what to do and having to be there when they said i had to. but i understand that others need a higher life style and 20 per hour dosent cut it.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

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i'm in the same boat kinda as this guy but ive been playing for around 4 years online now beating the games, although i just can't stand the online games anymore. It's not the same as a live game, not even close.

i could play for hours to stack someone at a rate of 60-80 hands per hour. but when i hit a casino i walk away with two stacks in 40 minutes. The games at casinos are crazy soft.

I've been saving up a bankroll for casino niagara, and the fallsview, which i live near ( in niagara falls canada. Usually when i play there i play the 1/2 games (100 max), so i only really need 2k.

usually when i play there i just steal blinds if I can to stay afloat, till i hit a monster or get some big pockets.
then when im a deep stack i just play more lag and just clean up.

have not had the opporitunity or the bankroll to play in the higher stakes games yet but look forward to it one day.

[/ QUOTE ]


move up asap cause the time charge in that game is ridiculous. 100 max buyin and $5 per half hour is absurd...move up to the 5/5 when you have $5k.

Re: Beginning 1/2 NL grinding in Vegas
 

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I've seen sets folded countless times on the flop and even middling flushes folded on unpaired boards as well.

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Sorry, this is at normal 1/2 NL tables in Vegas? I call shenanigans.