Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation Offer
 

Hi Everyone:

Over the past two months Two Plus Two and its forum members have been responsible for noticing, investigating, and ultimately alerting the world to the suspicious and potentially fraudulent cheating activity occurring at Absolute Poker.

For over two decades Two Plus Two publishing has been committed to the responsible growth of the poker industry and the fair play of the game. During the past five years the emergence of online poker has been both a blessing and a curse in this regard. Although online poker has certainly introduced our game to countless new players, it has also threatened to cast doubt on the game’s fairness and legality. Two Plus Two has tried to associate itself only with companies committed to fair, accurate, and legal poker.

Despite the scar left on the industry in wake of the recent allegations of online cheating, Two Plus Two is pleased with the way these forums have uncovered and addressed the issues. You have let the industry know that any potential cheating will be discovered, exposed, and not tolerated by poker players and customers of online poker sites.

Due to the size and influence of these forums within the industry, Absolute Poker recently approached me to ask if Two Plus Two would confirm to our forums that Absolute has done everything in its power to address and fix the recent allegations of cheating, security breaches, and improper activity. As you all know, I would never agree to such a statement unless

1. I believed it to be true, and
2. I thought it was in the best interest of the Two Plus Two community.

I am not an investigator able to make a determination that Absolute Poker, or any online site, is 100% safe for poker. I mentioned to Absolute that my attorneys may be able to conduct an investigation on my behalf. If my attorneys, who I have worked closely with for almost twenty years, agreed that the Absolute Poker site was safe, I would post a forum notice to that effect. The representative from Absolute Poker who we spoke with was initially agreed to these terms and I presented the investigation opportunity to my attorneys.

My attorneys informed me that they would be willing to conduct a thorough investigation of Absolute Poker. The law firm could immediately assemble a team of lawyers, computer specialists, and ex-government fraud investigators to fully analyze the current situation at Absolute and give an accurate report on the same. In order to accept, however, my attorneys needed to make it very clear that:

1. The investigation and report would be for the direct benefit of Two Plus Two and its forums, not Absolute Poker,

2. A positive outcome for Absolute could not be guaranteed,

3. The report and investigation would not include Two Plus Two’s (or its attorneys’) position on the general legality of online poker, and

4. They would accept direct compensation for the investigation only from Two Plus Two as a client.

Our attorneys sent us a formal letter outlining their investigation plan. Two Plus Two believes the plan is reasonable and guarantees an objective result that you, as Two Plus Two members, can rely on when deciding whether to support Absolute Poker in the future. We have forwarded the letter to Absolute Poker for approval, and so far, we have not heard an answer. In fact, Absolute Poker recently issued a press release stating that they have retained the “Gaming Associates” company to conduct an investigation into the recent allegations.

We at Two Plus Two don’t know enough about Gaming Associates to judge its ability to conduct an adequate investigation of Absolute Poker. We do know, however, that this proposed investigation makes us uneasy for a few reasons. First, according to its press release, Absolute Poker is funding the investigation directly, with no third party involved to ensure objectivity. Second, Absolute has apparently agreed to allow Bluff Magazine and Pocket Fives to review the findings of the investigation without a similar arrangement for Two Plus Two. This seems strange considering Two Plus Two’s role in uncovering and discussing this situation. Finally, Two Plus Two believes that a report from Gaming Associates, an Australian company apparently dealing primarily with Antigua and Barbados companies, may not maintain the same weight and reliability as the international law firm retained by Two Plus Two.

Ultimately the decision to support Absolute Poker in the future is up to each of you. Two Plus Two, although it does not condemn Absolute at this time, will not offer any support nor give any assurances until its proposal is accepted or discussed by Absolute.

I have posted this update for two reasons. First, I wanted to inform all Two Plus Two posters of the Absolute situation and our current stance on the issue. Second, I wanted to encourage discussion on whether Absolute’s current investigation proposal with Gaming Associates is adequate to protect its site and the online poker industry in general.


Best Wishes,

Mason Malmuth
Two Plus Two Publishing

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation Offer
 

not allowing 2p2 to be apart of this investigation does seem like thier trying to hide something, i would think it would be in AP best interest to allow 2p2 to be apart of this, not sure if people in the 2p2 community are gonna buy gambling assoc. findings regarding this scandal

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

Thanks for the info Mason [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Wanna grab a burger some time?

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

seems shady

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

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not allowing 2p2 to be apart of this investigation does seem like thier trying to hide something, i would think it would be in AP best interest to allow 2p2 to be apart of this, not sure if people in the 2p2 community are gonna buy gambling assoc. findings regarding this scandal

[/ QUOTE ]

it could be that, or it could be that paying 2p2 is more expensive than paying pocket fives, because 2p2's standard's for giving the audit an OK require hiring a bunch of experts, which AP would pay for (albeit indirectly)

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

Cliffnotes?

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cliffnotes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Boycott Absolute.

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investiga
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cliffnotes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason unexpectedly owns absolute, nobody really notices because he usually lets the 2p2 community down when he makes these types of statements on issues affecting the poker world.

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

[ QUOTE ]
2. A positive outcome for Absolute could not be guaranteed,

[/ QUOTE ]
Fail.

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

Cliffnotes:

2+2 offered to pay an independent team of lawyers to do a thorough investigation of the situation and report back to the community their findings, whatever they are. Absolute has not responded and does not seem interested even though it would cost them nothing and increase their credibility greatly.

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2. A positive outcome for Absolute could not be guaranteed,

[/ QUOTE ]
Fail.

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What are you talking about? Your statement makes no sense. In threads like these we need to find a detterent for idiots, it just makes 2p2 look bad.

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

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[ QUOTE ]
not allowing 2p2 to be apart of this investigation does seem like thier trying to hide something, i would think it would be in AP best interest to allow 2p2 to be apart of this, not sure if people in the 2p2 community are gonna buy gambling assoc. findings regarding this scandal

[/ QUOTE ]

it could be that, or it could be that paying 2p2 is more expensive than paying pocket fives, because 2p2's standard's for giving the audit an OK require hiring a bunch of experts, which AP would pay for (albeit indirectly)

[/ QUOTE ]

It is extremely standard for companies to pay for their own audits. Not sure why AP would have a problem with it, unless they really are in bad shape.

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

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Two Plus Two believes that a report from Gaming Associates, an Australian company apparently dealing primarily with Antigua and Barbados companies, may not maintain the same weight and reliability as the international law firm retained by Two Plus Two.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason, care to expand on this statement a little further? It sounds like you're implying that the quality of the work performed by gaming associates can't really be determined. Are they another Kawananahaha gaming commission?

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

I think what he is saying is that you do not hire the fox to watch the hen house!

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

Didn't David ask for $200,000 to do this?

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cliffnotes:

2+2 offered to pay an independent team of lawyers to do a thorough investigation of the situation and report back to the community their findings, whatever they are. Absolute has not responded and does not seem interested even though it would cost them nothing and increase their credibility greatly.

[/ QUOTE ]

fail

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

It would obviously cost AP money. How much? I'm not sure.
But after dishing out over a million to their customers involved in the scandal, you would think they wouldn't have a problem agreeing to this.

Mason is offering this becuase of the public perception of the independant auditor AP hired.

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

AP makes so much per day in rakeback/BJ and other things that 200k +/- is really almost nothing for them and this would greatly increase there credibility with the poker world, after they messed up pretty bad.

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

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AP makes so much per day in rakeback/BJ and other things that 200k +/- is really almost nothing for them and this would greatly increase there credibility with the poker world, after they messed up pretty bad.

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There is a big assumption in the bolded part.

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

[ QUOTE ]
It would obviously cost AP money. How much? I'm not sure.
But after dishing out over a million to their customers involved in the scandal, you would think they wouldn't have a problem agreeing to this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolute dished out over a million to their customers involved in the scandal, but wasn't that money all from the cheaters account? I was under the impression that the cheating accounts were unable to withdraw any, or atleast a large portion, of the money and so the players affected were compensated by the cheating account's money. If that is the case, then compensating the affected parties basically cost AP nothing.

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It would obviously cost AP money. How much? I'm not sure.
But after dishing out over a million to their customers involved in the scandal, you would think they wouldn't have a problem agreeing to this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolute dished out over a million to their customers involved in the scandal, but wasn't that money all from the cheaters account? I was under the impression that the cheating accounts were unable to withdraw any, or atleast a large portion, of the money and so the players affected were compensated by the cheating account's money. If that is the case, then compensating the affected parties basically cost AP nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]
That isn't quite accurate, they paid out more than was cheated. For example, in the 98 person POTRIPPER tournament they paid out $1K to every person in the event plus they bumped everyone up a spot. That is well more than the $30K that was cheated by POTRIPPER.

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It would obviously cost AP money. How much? I'm not sure.
But after dishing out over a million to their customers involved in the scandal, you would think they wouldn't have a problem agreeing to this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolute dished out over a million to their customers involved in the scandal, but wasn't that money all from the cheaters account? I was under the impression that the cheating accounts were unable to withdraw any, or atleast a large portion, of the money and so the players affected were compensated by the cheating account's money. If that is the case, then compensating the affected parties basically cost AP nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]
That isn't quite accurate, they paid out more than was cheated. For example, in the 98 person POTRIPPER tournament they paid out $1K to every person in the event plus they bumped everyone up a spot. That is well more than the $30K that was cheated by POTRIPPER.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, they paid the observers whose info was leaked accidentally. More importantly, wasn't a bunch of the money dumped prior to all this. Did they actually recover that or was it withdrawn?

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It would obviously cost AP money. How much? I'm not sure.
But after dishing out over a million to their customers involved in the scandal, you would think they wouldn't have a problem agreeing to this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolute dished out over a million to their customers involved in the scandal, but wasn't that money all from the cheaters account? I was under the impression that the cheating accounts were unable to withdraw any, or atleast a large portion, of the money and so the players affected were compensated by the cheating account's money. If that is the case, then compensating the affected parties basically cost AP nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]
That isn't quite accurate, they paid out more than was cheated. For example, in the 98 person POTRIPPER tournament they paid out $1K to every person in the event plus they bumped everyone up a spot. That is well more than the $30K that was cheated by POTRIPPER.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok so AP did use some of their own money to refund some of the players, but it isn't anywhere near the million that most people think came out of their own pocket.
Or am I just wrong?

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

Me thinks AP will wait for the results of the audit before deciding if 2+2's input would be helpful or not.

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

without a independent 3rd party to investigate and do an audit, who knows if everybody that got cheated was paid back, what accounts where involved, how long has cheating been going.........so many questions we probably will never get answers

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

i'm not quite sure what 2+2 would get out of this? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cliffnotes:

2+2 offered to pay an independent team of lawyers to do a thorough investigation of the situation and report back to the community their findings, whatever they are. Absolute has not responded and does not seem interested even though it would cost them nothing and increase their credibility greatly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like AP is just too scared that we'd do a too thorough an investigation. They obviously are trying to hide something. If they didn't have anything to hide, what do they have to lose besides increase community confidence that they are safe to play on?

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

They would figure out of AP is safe. Helping AP but also helping online poker by making this whole situation end as smoothly as possible. Pretty unbelievable that they haven't accepted this.

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

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They would figure out of AP is safe. Helping AP but also helping online poker by making this whole situation end as smoothly as possible. Pretty unbelievable that they haven't accepted this.

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Yes, they would help AP and help online poker. How does 2+2 benefit from either of those?

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

augie - me too.
I also don't know why I would trust 2+2's lawyers to do an adequate job on this.
Mason isn't an online-gambling expert to my knowledge.
I don't know if his lawyers know much about it nor do I know if they know what types of 'computer experts' would do the best job. I think there are plenty of knowledgeable 'computer experts' who would struggle with something like this if they don't know enough about the whole online-poker thing.

The fact that Mason has known his own lawyers for 20+ years doesn't mean that I should trust them, does it?

Their 3rd party investigation of this might be more objective than the group that AP has doing it. But I'm not sure if objective necessarily means effective in this situation.
I'm not sure it wouldn't though.

Just my initial thoughts on the matter.
I appreciate Mason's efforts here. But AP choosing to not let 2+2 do the investigating almost seems like the least objectionable thing AP has done through this whole mess.

I do think AP could be more professional and actually offer a response to 2+2 though.

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like AP is just too scared that we'd do a too thorough an investigation. They obviously are trying to hide something. If they didn't have anything to hide, what do they have to lose besides increase community confidence that they are safe to play on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Or maybe they already have enough people investigating them and they don't have to say yes to every request. Sure they are doing their best to cover it up, but maybe they think that all of the stuff they are doing is necessary and they don't have bend over backwards to accommodate Mason's demands because they already have independent auditors and several representatives of the poker community committed to doing something.

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

[ QUOTE ]
Second, Absolute has apparently agreed to allow Bluff Magazine and Pocket Fives to review the findings of the investigation without a similar arrangement for Two Plus Two. This seems strange considering Two Plus Two’s role in uncovering and discussing this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's kind of funny how when Nat was considering whether to go down to Costa Rica "as a representative for twoplustwo", Mason was very quick to point out that "I'm sorry but you do not represent Two Plus Two. That authorization can only from me."

However, when it comes to taking credit for uncovering the scandal, he's happy to have all the credit associated with the "Two Plus Two" name.

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

if online poker is deemed safe by the majority 2+2 benefits because they sell poker books.

LDO.

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Second, Absolute has apparently agreed to allow Bluff Magazine and Pocket Fives to review the findings of the investigation without a similar arrangement for Two Plus Two. This seems strange considering Two Plus Two’s role in uncovering and discussing this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's kind of funny how when Nat was considering whether to go down to Costa Rica "as a representative for twoplustwo", Mason was very quick to point out that "I'm sorry but you do not represent Two Plus Two. That authorization can only from me."

However, when it comes to taking credit for uncovering the scandal, he's happy to have all the credit associated with the "Two Plus Two" name.

[/ QUOTE ]

don't post anymore.

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Second, Absolute has apparently agreed to allow Bluff Magazine and Pocket Fives to review the findings of the investigation without a similar arrangement for Two Plus Two. This seems strange considering Two Plus Two’s role in uncovering and discussing this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's kind of funny how when Nat was considering whether to go down to Costa Rica "as a representative for twoplustwo", Mason was very quick to point out that "I'm sorry but you do not represent Two Plus Two. That authorization can only from me."

However, when it comes to taking credit for uncovering the scandal, he's happy to have all the credit associated with the "Two Plus Two" name.

[/ QUOTE ]

don't post anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cliffnotes:

2+2 offered to pay an independent team of lawyers to do a thorough investigation of the situation and report back to the community their findings, whatever they are. Absolute has not responded and does not seem interested even though it would cost them nothing and increase their credibility greatly.

[/ QUOTE ]

fail

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uh, unless im way off, Mason clearly stated that the lawyers would only accept compensation from 2+2 so 2+2 is paying and AP doesnt have to pay anything, like I said.

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like AP is just too scared that we'd do a too thorough an investigation. They obviously are trying to hide something. If they didn't have anything to hide, what do they have to lose besides increase community confidence that they are safe to play on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Or maybe they already have enough people investigating them and they don't have to say yes to every request. Sure they are doing their best to cover it up, but maybe they think that all of the stuff they are doing is necessary and they don't have bend over backwards to accommodate Mason's demands because they already have independent auditors and several representatives of the poker community committed to doing something.

[/ QUOTE ]


maybe they should consider that it would be a better show of good faith to let those that represent the site where the entire scandal was uncovered do the audit

yeah maybe they are getting audited left and right... who cares... they should be bending over backwards to regain some semblance of trust with the community that uncovered the dirt on them in the first place

so yeah in response to your post... they should indeed be bendin over backwards... and after they are done with that they should get on their knees and open their mouths too.. and not just on valentines day, anniversaries, and birthdays

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cliffnotes:

2+2 offered to pay an independent team of lawyers to do a thorough investigation of the situation and report back to the community their findings, whatever they are. Absolute has not responded and does not seem interested even though it would cost them nothing and increase their credibility greatly.

[/ QUOTE ]

fail

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uh, unless im way off, Mason clearly stated that the lawyers would only accept compensation from 2+2 so 2+2 is paying and AP doesnt have to pay anything, like I said.

[/ QUOTE ]
4. They would accept direct compensation for the investigation only from Two Plus Two as a client.


mason isn't paying for abso's lawyers LDO

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Second, Absolute has apparently agreed to allow Bluff Magazine and Pocket Fives to review the findings of the investigation without a similar arrangement for Two Plus Two. This seems strange considering Two Plus Two’s role in uncovering and discussing this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's kind of funny how when Nat was considering whether to go down to Costa Rica "as a representative for twoplustwo", Mason was very quick to point out that "I'm sorry but you do not represent Two Plus Two. That authorization can only from me."

However, when it comes to taking credit for uncovering the scandal, he's happy to have all the credit associated with the "Two Plus Two" name.

[/ QUOTE ]

don't post anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's a valid point. I wasn't going to point it out though.

Re: Absolute Does Not Respond to Two Plus Two’s Fraud Investigation O
 

I think someone should, thats some low bs, give credit where credit is due.