JJ with two overs
 

Like everyone else, I hate Jacks. Here's a hand that I just had. Should I be folding this flop? Or pealing one off?

PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO:(Villain)/ posts a blind of $0.02.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO :Villain (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, Villain bets</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero ???? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img].


Edit: I just noticed (once I converted this hand) that Villain just posted in the cut-off and therefore could have anything (but most likely calling a raise with paint).

Re: JJ with two overs
 

call/fold have to be close.... doubt there is too much difference in ev. i probly peel one off and fold the turn ui

btw like everyone else, i love jacks. just fwiw

Re: JJ with two overs
 

Have to agree with Bulletproof, call the flop bet and then lay it down on the turn, of course I don't think raising the flop would be a terrible play either, and if he re-raises you it's an easy fold on the flop, if he calls I think you still have to lay it on the turn facing a bet.

Re: JJ with two overs
 

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I don't think raising the flop would be a terrible play either

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what do you hope to accomplish? what is your plan for the turn, oop against the bettor -- bet again?

Re: JJ with two overs
 

continuation bet with overcards into large board is probably not a good plan but I think its doable 1 in 5 especially with this many callers.

Most people save their reraise to the turn so I doubt you are going to get reraised here. If you do its a pretty easy fold.


So one small bet into a loaded board is going to define your hand pretty fast.

I think you have more than 20% equity here.

Re: JJ with two overs
 

[ QUOTE ]
of course I don't think raising the flop would be a terrible play either

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Putting "of course" in front of a statement doesn't make it not ridiculous.

OP: I fold as a default but your hand is probably worth about 3 outs and you're getting just about the right odds for that, closing the action so peeling looks close.

EDIT: I don't think the flop check is close at all.

Re: JJ with two overs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think raising the flop would be a terrible play either

[/ QUOTE ]

what do you hope to accomplish? what is your plan for the turn, oop against the bettor -- bet again?

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad, just re read the hand and didn't realize that UTG+1 called the villians bet, when I read it I was thinking everyone folded and he was heads up with villian. Of course raising here is an obvious spew and doesn't accomplish anything, is it ok to use "of course" here Xhad??

Re: JJ with two overs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
of course I don't think raising the flop would be a terrible play either

[/ QUOTE ]

Putting "of course" in front of a statement doesn't make it not ridiculous.

OP: I fold as a default but your hand is probably worth about 3 outs and you're getting just about the right odds for that, closing the action so peeling looks close.

EDIT: I don't think the flop check is close at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Xhad ... I can't see hero's hand as having a worth of 3outs ... if we hit our Js we can get into really big trouble (and the the board will present redraws)

i'm not too sure what i would give it (but having the possibility of of losing a lot of big bets significantly impacts out holdings making this a fold)

Re: JJ with two overs
 

I'd bet the flop the first time. Sure you have lots of opponents but it is a big freakin pot and they cant fold if you dont bet. You wont take it down here very often though. Im much happier shutting down when faced with aggro after I bet than I am in being weak and just giving up. Stick that 1 small bet in on the flop please.

Even if a bet is not right here I am going to make a more general comment and say that, recently (not aimed necessarily at OP but may apply) I recall seeing alot of hands posted where hero played a hand poorly/passively either preflop or on the flop and then asks the question..."what do I do now?" Well Ill tell you what you do, you avoid putting yourself in that tough spot in the first place. Play aggressively, yet sensibly, on the flop and THEN see how much your opponents like their hands. Getting raised when you bet is often way different to getting bet into after you check.

In short, in if you are considering playing a hand in such a way that you are likely going to find yourself with a tougher decision later in the hand then perhaps dont play your hand that way. Okay Okay so dont go overboard and be a spewtard but dont be giving up big pots so damn meekly, give your opponents a chance to make mistakes.

Re: JJ with two overs
 

the pot's big. fire the flop. believe it or not we have the best hand some decent part of the time and may even get a weak Queen or even just a hand with outs against us to fold. even if that isn't the case, betting is better if you plan on seeing the turn.

as Aussie stated, it's much easier to play out hands like this if we begin to define what everyone is holding. too many people autobet when check to in these games and it can leave us wondering where the hell we are. as the old addage goes, if we're in a situation that makes it CLOSE to a call, simply betting it ourself has several benefits over playing passively.

Re: JJ with two overs
 

middle pair folds at .02/.04 getting over 11:1? Seriously guys. Betting just sets up a c/r far more often than it does anything good. Yeah pot is big, you also have 4 opponents and a flop that is close to the worst possible, and anything that would fold this flop for 1 bet is a far longshot anyway. So it's not for protection nor is it for value, I'm not sure what you guys are trying to do.

If villain is going to autobet any two cards then c/r'ing is better than betting.

Re: JJ with two overs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Xhad ... I can't see hero's hand as having a worth of 3outs ... if we hit our Js we can get into really big trouble (and the the board will present redraws)

[/ QUOTE ]

You also have a redraw on the rare occasion a J completes a straight and overall stand to make money on the turn if you hit. I would fold though.

Re: JJ with two overs
 

[ QUOTE ]
...may even get a weak Queen or even just a hand with outs against us to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol @ folding a queen or 9T in 0.02/0.04, remember that when Villan miscklicks it is 50% to be a raise.

I think this is c/c 1 (for 2J plus BDSD), fold turn UI, we dont have to worry about meta game or anything else. There is simply no reason to outplay people or manuvering razor thin EV edges playing a game that is beatable for 20BB/100 it just adds variance.

just my 2

Re: JJ with two overs
 

I would fold.

Re: JJ with two overs
 

Interesting input. Thanks. I did check-call and folded the turn when I didn't improve. Now in retrospect, I'm thinking a flop bet wouldn't have hurt (since I was planning on committing 1 SB anyway) and then hit the brakes on the turn UI or if raised. I don't like the check-raise, it's spewing chips and building a bigger pot for whomever has a queen or a week king (or even A10 or J10).

Re: JJ with two overs
 

OK... this is weird. I just had an almost identical situation with JJ. I raised from MP1 and got a couple callers. This time I bet the flop (KQx) and the button calls and BB calls. We all check a blank turn. The BB bets the river... crying call now?

Re: JJ with two overs
 

If by "crying call," you mean "laughing fold," then yeah. If you're going to check the turn with the intention of folding (I assume), then if the river blanks off, that changes nothing. Perhaps BB is betting the river as a desperate bluff, but then again perhaps he's also value-betting Qx.

Re: JJ with two overs
 

I would fire the flop. There is still some chance we are good. Will make the hand easier to play.

Re: JJ with two overs
 

I kid you not, I just played this hand against a big 80/10 fish.....and guess what...MHIG

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
fish calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, fish calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, fish calls, CO folds, Button folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, fish calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">fish bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Jh Jd (two pair, kings and jacks).
fish has 6c 5c (two pair, kings and fives).
Outcome: Hero wins 9.50 BB. </font>

Re: JJ with two overs
 

Well once you get HU against a known fish it's different. And of course you're good some % of the time, but 5-handed I think that possibility is negligible. Also, checking has almost no chance of getting you a free turn in your hand.

Re: JJ with two overs
 

[ QUOTE ]
If by "crying call," you mean "laughing fold," then yeah. If you're going to check the turn with the intention of folding (I assume), then if the river blanks off, that changes nothing. Perhaps BB is betting the river as a desperate bluff, but then again perhaps he's also value-betting Qx.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the second time around, I "laughingly folded". No one else called so the better didn't show. I think it was the right decision. No wonder we all hate Jacks!