200PS: When one hand beats you
 

Villain is a semi-regular, okay player. We have little history, but we are on several different tables together.

I didn't be the flop, because I figuered he usually bets to steal on the flop when checked to, and as only limper. Of course I should have b/3bet, since my hand is somewhat diguised as well.

Turn is pretty standard, my problem is river. How much do I bet? Do I bet/call? Do I check/call? What's the best line? The only hand that beats me is 45xx.

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($329.35)
MP ($45.50)
Button ($196.35)
SB ($89.30)
Hero ($364.65)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls $2, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($6) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks.

Turn: ($6) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $5.7</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $22.8</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $74.1</font>, UTG calls $51.30.

River: ($154.20) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="purple">Hero ????</font>

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

Value bet. Also, why are you checking the flop?

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

[ QUOTE ]
Value bet. Also, why are you checking the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the worst response I have ever seen in the history of 2+2. Please read through the OP, k thx bye

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

1) I know you don't want to hear this, but bet the flop, this check is abhorrently horrendous. Why would you want to give a free card on this board? Betting flop here makes other streets much easier to play.

2) As played, bet the river, call a shove. If he has 45xx, so be it. I can't really imagine any hands he can have that check the flop, and repot the turn, with 45xx in them. 2254? Nothing else would make sense unless this is the line he takes with hands like AA54 with diamonds.

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

The problem with betting the river, of course, is it gives villian the opportunity to shove and I don't think we really want to have to call an AI. I feel like your ahead here 8/10 times, but I can't see him calling a 1/2 psb with anything we beat. Lately, it seems my opponents have been re-raising my turn bets w/ combo str and flush draws and little else. They've been pulling this move when it gets checked around on the flop, like this particular hand. I think a c/c is optimal as it appears he's willing to bet the river.

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

All, I know I know I know, I should have bet the flop, as I say in OP, the flopcheck is really bad, and of course I know that. I almost didn't want to post this hand, because I am embarassed over the flopcheck.

Noobster: I think he can call a 1/2 pot bet on the river with a lower set, but if he had 8's or 3's, it's strange he didn't bet the flop. So I kind of agree with you. But I want to hear some more responses as well...

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

Ok, let me rephrase.

I don't like the flop check. You'd need a ton of hands and a sick read imo to KNOW that the last player to act is going to bet this flop in a LIMPED pot. If you do have that sort of read, then cudos, it didn't work.

I think you need to value bet here. I'd bet about $100-110 here. Having the 4 in hand helps your cause.


If you take the c/c line, will you call a full psb? I'd think anyone checking here is calling most if not all bets.

I also think you should valuebet, because given the turn action, I'm not sure how many bluffs you catch, even if he missed a bunch of draws and has no showdown value, I think you get rivers with worse showdown hands AND air checking behind.

I'd just lead out for $100 and if he shoves probably fold. You'll never get bluffed here in this spot and hands you beat that have showdown value, wouldn't turn them into bluffs. It would be a little over $150 if he shoved and if hes a regular, hes not shoving with anything other than 45xx imo.

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

There's really only two hands that make sense here: 22xx and 456 with diamonds. If you check, you don't have to worry about a lower set betting, so I think you can check/fold pretty comfortably, and if you bet, 222 will almost certainly call one more bet.

The problem is that I think the wrap is much more likely than the lower set here. All in all, I think the best play is to check/fold here. The check behind flop/raise turn actually defines villain's hand really well here to the point that we're almost sure that if villain's drawing, he has 45 in his hand since his draw had to improve on the turn for him to wait for that street to raise. Thus, there's no reasonable hand villain can bluff with, and villain will very rarely value-bet worse than what we have.

Maybe if he bets 1/3 pot and you get suspicious he might have 88 or something, you can look him up, but I think most of the time, check/folding is the correct play here. (Note: This in no way means, you're giving up on the hand. Villain will check behind fairly often. It's just that when he bets, you're beat.)

Oh, BTW, if you do decide to lead, a smidge under half-pot is the right amount. You're not really repping a bluff at all given your line, you're just looking for a stubborn call from something like 222 that knows they're beat and wants to see your hand to make sure.

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

Check/fold? You can't be serious? How many hands can Villain actually play this way that have 45xx in them? Put it this way, if you're Villain here, do you put Hero on JJxx or better, considering the flop check? You wouldn't call a river bet with other sets? Seems silly to me.

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

I really wish you had bet that flop, but this may have paid off.

I think you can either check-call the river or (I think I prefer this line) make a value-bet of about $60. If you get raised, I think you have to fold after betting. But I also think there are some bad hands that will still call here. I really don't see how anyone can raise a bet without the straight, since you're repping it.

Anyhow, I can see 4567 with diamonds giving you that action as well as little sets. I can't help but believe A456 with diamonds bets the flop. Also, with both wraps 5-handed, the lack of UTG raise seems to me unusual--which speaks for a small set or something.

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

Quite a few. I think it depends somewhat on propensities to raise wraps UTG, and he's got to be suited.

My real problem with the check-fold line is that I think you're inviting a bluff short-handed. I really like a 1/3-1/2 pot "blocker" bet, at least if you're not the type of player who just always pots the river. I think there's call equity from some losers and it forces villain to have the nuts in order to raise. I do think he has it a lot of the time.

I'm assuming villain to be more or less solid but with some typical short-handed gameyness as well.

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

[ QUOTE ]
How many hands can Villain actually play this way that don't have 45xx in them? Put it this way, if you're Villain here, do you put Hero on JJxx or better, considering the flop check? You wouldn't call a river bet with other sets? Seems silly to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, the only hand that makes sense here that we beat is 22. This is a combo draw that improved on the turn (likely by turning a wrap) more than half the time. Do you think 88 or 33 checks behind on this flop in an unraised pot? I never see that. Sometimes, people get retardedly stupid with top set, but never with middle set or bottom set.

And if I'm villain, I put hero on a set about 90% of the time. With the 3-bet on the turn, it seems obvious that hero has a huge hand and just whiffed a C/R on the flop. When does someone ever 3-bet full pot on the turn fairly deep with two pair or a combo draw?

I'm not saying villain won't call with 22 on the river; a lot of players are bad, but if I'm villain, I fold that to the turn 3-bet. A combo draw with 45 seems almost obvious to me, I'm surprised you think it's unlikely.

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

I think many replies here are clouded by knowing villain had 45.

Also if you watch his videos, he checks the flop a lot, even after raising. :P

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think many replies here are clouded by knowing villain had 45.

Also if you watch his videos, he checks the flop a lot, even after raising. :P

[/ QUOTE ]

How would I know that. It doesn't say so anywhere in the post? I guess I could've inferred it was likely from the title, but I wasn't even thinking about that when I looked at the hand. Just that the action on previous streets made it a likely holding. Even if the flush came instead of the straight, I think you'd have a better chance of being good here.

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

Oh god, Ribs is the villain here? Now the river's definitely a check/fold. I seriously think he has the straight over 90% of the time even before you bet. Bet/calling is beyond horrible. If you really need help letting this go, lead for $60 or so first, but you should definitely be dumping this.

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh god, Ribs is the villain here? Now the river's definitely a check/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

hehe this hand didnt click till just now [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

Who said Ribs is the villain? Is Ribs a poster here?

I [censored] it up btw.

PS: The villain is indeed Ribs

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who said Ribs is the villain? Is Ribs a poster here?

I [censored] it up btw.

PS: The villain is indeed Ribs

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a level right?

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who said Ribs is the villain?

[/ QUOTE ]

check out the low content thread.......

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh god, Ribs is the villain here? Now the river's definitely a check/fold. I seriously think he has the straight over 90% of the time even before you bet. Bet/calling is beyond horrible. If you really need help letting this go, lead for $60 or so first, but you should definitely be dumping this.

[/ QUOTE ]
what is it about the way he plays that makes you so sure he has the 54? please explain ofr those of us who have never played with him before

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

Well, first off, he's never playing 22 unless he misclicked preflop or has something really specific to go with it like maybe JJ. And he's straightforward/solid enough that he's never checking behind with J8, 88, or 33 on the flop. (Not that those were likely anyway, but the probability of those hands went from ~5% to whatever Ribs' misclick frequency is.) Also, a naked flush draw is very much in the range that Ribs checks behind on the flop as he tends to play passively with weak draws. Finally, if he did somehow end up with 22 on the turn, he's good enough to fold to the 3-bet when Timber makes it obvious that he has a better set that missed a C/R. The only hand left is a flush draw that picked up a wrap on the turn.

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

So a flush draw with the upper wrap is more aggressive on the flop here always?

Re: 200PS: When one hand beats you
 

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that I think the wrap is much more likely than the lower set here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take it one step further: if villain is a reasonablly competent player, he can never have a set here after calling the turn raise.

Mathematically, he can't have JJ obv., he would have bet 88 on the flop when it was checked to him last to act, and he can't call a pot-sized 3-bet on the turn with 22 or 33.