200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

Villain here is bigdkeene, running like 45/2 over enough hands. No other reads, except he's well terrible. I've got a lot of input for this hand obv, but I'll leave it open-ended for now to generate better discussion.

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $519.50
MP: $194
Hero (CO): $208.15
BTN: $219
SB: $54.95
BB: $65.40

Pre-Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG calls $2, MP folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $10</font>, 3 folds, UTG calls $8

Flop: ($23) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $17.50</font>, UTG calls $17.50

Turn: ($58) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets $20</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $40</font>, UTG calls $20

River: ($138) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets $75</font>, Hero calls $75

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

call the turn, i prefer a min-raise on a more drawy board.

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

first thought was that the turn raise seems kinda silly... second was that the 3 on the river didnt change anything and if you were raising the turn for value then you might as well go for the kill on the river.

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

What do you put him on that you beat when he donks the turn and river?

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

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first thought was that the turn raise seems kinda silly... second was that the 3 on the river didnt change anything and if you were raising the turn for value then you might as well go for the kill on the river.

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Unless he thinks that villain will call with straight draws and 7s on the turn and won't on the river, which I think is the case.

IDK if it's immaterial or not, but as well as getting value the turn minraise kinda puts you 'in control' of the hand again.

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

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What do you put him on that you beat when he donks the turn and river?

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7s and busted straights enough of the time to make the call +EV?

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

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first thought was that the turn raise seems kinda silly... second was that the 3 on the river didnt change anything and if you were raising the turn for value then you might as well go for the kill on the river.

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Unless he thinks that villain will call with straight draws and 7s on the turn and won't on the river, which I think is the case.

IDK if it's immaterial or not, but as well as getting value the turn minraise kinda puts you 'in control' of the hand again.

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Exactly my thoughts. I was planning on checking behind all rivers on the turn.

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

In addition, I think the turn raise keeps him honest; I'm repping a monster imo.

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

this is a really dry board and the only draws besides gs have 8s in them, you have 2 of them

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

US this kind of clown will continue with all gutshots especially JT which has overs too.

i like your turn logic but i think it also follows from that same logic that a bigger raise is better

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

This looks ok. I think a river fold is also ok considering that you rep a lot of strength on the turn. Its unlikely he bets a 7 or missed draw IMO. However, he only needs to do it 25% of the time for this to be a call so i like a call too, lol.

NH.

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

make it 75 on the turn and fold to a shove...for the same reasons you minraised the turn because he's still calling and you're more likely to get to showdown.

I think the river is a fold....really only because I dont think he ever expects us to fold to that size of bet after we raise the turn.

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

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In addition, I think the turn raise keeps him honest; I'm repping a monster imo.

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If you think he thinks and you're repping a monster to him and he's donking the river the correct read is to fold. As played I crying call then get really pissed off and end my session after he turns up A3.

EDIT: besides pf stats have you seen him donk streets previously? If it's typical of him I'd say you can justify calling.

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

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make it 75 on the turn and fold to a shove...for the same reasons you minraised the turn because he's still calling and you're more likely to get to showdown.

I think the river is a fold....really only because I dont think he ever expects us to fold to that size of bet after we raise the turn.



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I would still call the river. If we are beat it is most likely to something like A3. These type of players are idiots and will do stupid random stuff when they realize they can't win at showdown regardless of the action leading up to the river.


edit: I think the fact that we minraised the turn makes this more of a call.

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

i got that u were checking behind on all rivers, but river is a fold as played imo

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

GRUNCH

is the turn miniraise an attempt at a cheap showdown? if so, I think it's fine and it'll probably get some value out of worse hands, so i like it. I hate it if you're trying to fold out a 9.

river is tough. does he ever have a 3 by the river--given flop and turn action? (maybe cause he sucks...but who knows.)If he had a big hand before the river, he's surely raise the turn.

the question is what is the intention of the flop bet? the size is weird because he's obviously capable of donking much smaller. So I don't think he'd make a blocking bet this big with a smaller pair.

Instead, I think his river bet is either a value bet (with a 3 or weird played FH) or a bluff of a missed straight. Given the turn action, I think the river call is pretty good. (although i'd like a river call alot more if u had pocket 66)

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

I like making it 60ish on the turn for a free sd. Fold to a push obv.

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

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In addition, I think the turn raise keeps him honest; I'm repping a monster imo.

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So why did you call the river?

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

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In addition, I think the turn raise keeps him honest; I'm repping a monster imo.

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So why did you call the river?

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cause villain's hand doesn't add up. we only have to be good here a small % of time. and the villain sucks and thinking on the river can be "oh damn, my straight didn't get there, i can't win by checking down, i have to bet to win" (while conveniently forgetting what the hero was repping on the turn.)

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

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In addition, I think the turn raise keeps him honest; I'm repping a monster imo.

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So why did you call the river?

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Yeah really, if you're going to raise the turn you can't call the river imo. In that case calling the turn is better, which is a reasonable line if you're uncertain about how villain would react on the turn to a raise.

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

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In addition, I think the turn raise keeps him honest; I'm repping a monster imo.

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So why did you call the river?

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cause villain's hand doesn't add up. we only have to be good here a small % of time. and the villain sucks and thinking on the river can be "oh damn, my straight didn't get there, i can't win by checking down, i have to bet to win" (while conveniently forgetting what the hero was repping on the turn.)

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Yeah, but what's the reasoning repping a monster on the turn with a marginal hand if you don't think villain cares?

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

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In addition, I think the turn raise keeps him honest; I'm repping a monster imo.

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So why did you call the river?

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Yeah really, if you're going to raise the turn you can't call the river imo. In that case calling the turn is better, which is a reasonable line if you're uncertain about how villain would react on the turn to a raise.

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against a thinking opponent, i'd agree. against a donk who doesn't think about our cards, i disagree.

The thing is that donks have street by street short term memory.

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

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against a thinking opponent, i'd agree. against a donk who doesn't think about our cards, i disagree.

The thing is that donks have street by street short term memory.


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Turn:
"Looks like top set, I'll call with my gutshot and stack him.


River:
"Hmmm, actually seems more like AK imo, I bet"

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

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In addition, I think the turn raise keeps him honest; I'm repping a monster imo.

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So why did you call the river?

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Yeah really, if you're going to raise the turn you can't call the river imo. In that case calling the turn is better, which is a reasonable line if you're uncertain about how villain would react on the turn to a raise.

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against a thinking opponent, i'd agree. against a donk who doesn't think about our cards, i disagree.

The thing is that donks have street by street short term memory.

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But the reasoning to rep a monster and keep him honest is obv flawed if we're paying off the river. And if we think this is true (villain has a short term memory loss), why would we like to raise the turn instead of just calling down?

Either we raise the turn and fold to any more resistance or we just call down imho. We just don't like to play a big pot with such a weak hand if we think villain might be spazzy.

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

If your minraising to check it down I prefer calling since your probably good for another smallish bet on the river. On the river vs. some donks its a fold, vs. splashy ones who can bet any pair here cause they're clueless call.

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

I just call turn. As played, definitely fold the river. He donked again after you raised him. That is rarely nothing, and your holding really cuts down on the number of busted draws (which were meager to begin with).

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

River can be a call or fold since villain is a "clown" and his donk bets are really unpredictable. They could be a feeble bluff attempt after he misses his straight draw or maybe he was still set-mining a tiny pp through the river. Maybe his donk bet is him afraid of not extracting value on the river with A3, 9x, or a weirdly played set. The only thing that really matters here is figuring out how to bet against him.

I don't like the turn minraise because it doesn't fold anything out, doesn't give you any idea of where you're at, and doesn't extract value from straight draws. It even leaves you in a position where you're not sure whether you're committed enough to call river. The river could literally be any card (besides an 8) and you'll be asking the same question "[censored] am I ahead or behind?" Either call the turn for pot control or go strong with your turn bet and commit yourself to the pot. Perhaps raising turn to take control in the hand is a very good play against a player thinking past level one. Perhaps repping a monster makes sense against players that pay attention to what you're repping. For donks who donk, these strategies are bad imo.

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

i like how you play pf and on the flop, but the turn minraise is terrible. What does it accomplish? Just call the turn and re-evaluate the river.

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

What better hands does he ever make this river bet with, aside from A3?

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

A FH, 2 pair, 9x. He obviously has something. So if you think he's going to bet some made hand worse than ours, he obviously can be betting all of those.

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

I highly disagree that he makes this bet with 9x. There's 9 combo's of FH hands (22, 77, 99), and the rest is air. His line makes no sense imo, and I was offered nice odds.

Anybody wanna guess what he tabled?

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

AA

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

A3

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

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I highly disagree that he makes this bet with 9x.

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You make a fishy min-raise on the turn. He thinks wtf, calls and makes a small value/block/wtf-bet on the river with his top pair. What's so unbelievable with that? And why do you rep a monster to keep him honest when you don't think it will keep him honest?

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

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I highly disagree that he makes this bet with 9x.

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You make a fishy min-raise on the turn. He thinks wtf, calls and makes a small value/block/wtf-bet on the river with his top pair. What's so unbelievable with that? And why do you rep a monster to keep him honest when you don't think it will keep him honest?

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Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

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I highly disagree that he makes this bet with 9x.

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You make a fishy min-raise on the turn. He thinks wtf, calls and makes a small value/block/wtf-bet on the river with his top pair. What's so unbelievable with that? And why do you rep a monster to keep him honest when you don't think it will keep him honest?

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Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

Don't really agree with you guy'zz river logic.

He showed JT and I are winnar.

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

zomg will is like sooooo good at teh pokerz

Re: 200NL - Strangeish line against clown
 

lol don't mind this clown