let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

I've heard it so many times it makes me want to puke. People hold beliefs they think are true, but have not bothered to do their homework on the actual facts. These facts are readily apparent, accessible, clear and unambiguous, yet the ignorant keep making blanket statements such as:

Poker hardly makes any money.

There's no money in poker.

Poker is unprofitable.

Casinos lose money on poker.

Bull-pucky, bull-pucky, bull-crapola.

I wonder if these people actually like the taste of bullpucky, because that's what comes out of their mouths every time something like this is said.

A fairly busy 10 or 12 table room can easily make several million dollars a year. The costs associated with running and maintaining this room will likely not exceed 30% of their total rake. My figures come from numbers I've actually seen with my own eyes, but obviously I can't give exact numbers.

One of the most telling spreadsheets I've ever done was the minimum break even point for a typical 10 table room. I figured expenses based on wages of needed staff (by number of tables open), plus comps and peripheral expenses (electricity etc). I figured many of the expenses on the high side. The results were quite telling.

Even with one table open, the room could still make a profit. This was true even if the game wasn't taking in full average rake for the room. Even short-handed, one game would almost certainly meet costs.

With more than one table, the minimum break even rake per table goes down pretty quickly. Eventually the curve levels off. For example, a room with 100 tables would see little difference between 75 and 100 tables. Yes, this does indicate that there are limits to the profitability of poker. You simply cannot take a room that makes millions and force it to make billions by raising the rake.

So there's a limit to how much can be made with poker. So what? Are dollars earned at poker worth less than other dollars? Last I checked, no.

Let me share something a mentor taught me about casinos. He asked a group of us this question:

If you were opening a new, fairly small casino, which would you rather have - sports book or cardroom?

The answer is - cardroom. Sportsbooks take risk, one big game could cost the casino big money. This is also why smaller casinos have quite small limits on certain games, most notably craps. However, a cardroom is quite safe and pretty much guaranteed income.

So what's friggin' up with so many people thinking poker doesn't make money? I'll tell you what's friggin' up - idiots who majored in business, but have no actual life experience in the world of poker. What's worse is that these idiots took one beginning course (for non-math majors) in statistics. Now statistics have some uses, but they need to be tempered with common sense, something severely lacking in the upper management of disneyland, err, las vegas.

So one black day, long ago, one of these mega morons got ahold of a statistic. This single piece of useless and insignificant information has caused poker more harm than anything ever could again. This moron calculated the average profit per square foot of casino space for slots, table games, and poker. Poker of course doesn't compare at all in this one specific area of casino numerology.

Now if space were an issue, I could understand the desire for slots or table games over poker. But let's get real, there's no shortage of space out here in the desert. In virtually all big casinos I've been in, slot banks are spaciously spread out. Just make them all four to six inches closer and you'd have lots of space for a nice, centrally located poker room.

And speaking of centrally located, only fools bury the poker room in the back, especially near the sportsbook. Poker rooms that are buried and hard to find won't get walk-in players and won't have near the action or volume of a centrally located room.

Casino bigwigs may wish poker would go away, but they only highlight their own ignorance by doing so. The fact is poker is not going away, so you might as well face it and do it right.

Another fact that's overlooked is the considerable money spent by poker players in other parts of the casino. My estimate is that at least 30% of poker players are regulars at table games, slots, or both. Shun poker, send the money elsewhere. Although harrahs has royally screwed up the world series of poker year after year, with bigger and bigger fiascos each time, there's a reason why they went so far out of their way to get the wsop. They know how much peripheral money they're going to make from the players (not to mention the millions in poker money) . Too bad they don't give a damn about poker, or the players.

Get with the program and get the facts straight. Poker makes money. You really have to go out of your way to make poker unprofitable.

And perhaps the most important point of all - bullcrap just doesn't taste very good. So quit saying poker doesn't make any money.

Al

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

what a phony argument, sportsbook or cardroom. dude , you need a new mentor.....lol. a new small casino would lose munney either way. waste of space, better to allocate square footage to something that has a chance.

slots is what makes a casino munney. cardroom and book just to keep players happy.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

Al, thanks for taking the time to post this. Always appreciate your willingness to share what you've learned about the poker biz, and your efforts to educate (which I'm guessing frequently feels like banging one's head against a wall.)

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

Reminds of a joke about statisticians.

Three of them are out hunting deer. They spot a huge buck at the same time, so the first one shoots and misses 10 feet right. The next lines up the buck and misses 10 feet left. The third one just stands there, jumps up and down and says "I hit it"

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

Sad part is, it may not come down to revenue per square. Often times business will go towards path of lest resistance.
Poker rooms are very labor intensive when compared to slot space. And the players card in the slot area is (i think) worth more $$ wise than the poker player.
While I think you are right about $$ generated from poker rooms, slots are just a whole lot less trouble to the casino.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

Al,

What did you calculate for space overhead? $40/sqft/year? What's the right amount?

My guess is poker will be given a broad exception in some states as gambling laws relax. Cardhouses will spring up to meet the demand. A medium-sized room in an outlying county here (outside of the Triangle) would do well, especially since building and land costs would be low. Figure overhead of about $12/sqft for building and land costs with utilities. Not sure what the tax rate would be.

If there were 12 tables with 40% occupancy and the rake were, say, $4 per hand, what kind of money would we be talking after paying everyone? Let's say 5000 sq ft to start, so about $70,000/year in building and grounds.

Also, how do you feel about living in North Carolina? ;-)

Matt

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

No one's saying poker rooms don't make money.

Its just that the casinos have the mentality that slots make the big money, so let's direct our efforts there.

I believe if gambling enterprises treat the poker players better they would have much higher revenues overall. I figure more players would bring their wives and girlfriends, and they would be exposed to gambling, just maybe would drop a few on slots, if only they would do better on room rates and comps for poker players.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

I've played a few sessions of poker with the former manager of a small poker room that was in a more-or-less locals casino in Vegas. He claimed the room netted a little less than 500K a year in profit, and that was with less than 10 tables and a $3 max. rake.

There's no way that particular casino would have made more money if they replaced the poker room with slots and video poker, as there are at any time already dozens of unoccupied machines in the casino. Poker is clearly profitable and good for the financial health of casinos.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

There was a time not long ago that I worked in a poker room that was making a small profit. The casino decided to give up that small profit to replace it with empty space to get poker players out of their casino. The demographics have changed enough that casinos suits (for the most part anyway) aren't concerned about poker players scaring away their other guests.

Sometimes a poker room will lose money on paper. Not because having poker costs the casino money, but they choose to move the profit to some other department. That same poker room that closed to get poker players out of the casino had put up a lot of red ink before getting to the black. The red ink came from food and beverage charging full retail price for drinks. The hotel greatly over charging for hotel rooms. Even stuff like having signs made for in the cost more (out of the poker budget) to have done internally rather than going to an outside vendor. The poker room generated revenue for the casino, but still had plenty of red ink in the budget.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sad part is, it may not come down to revenue per square. Often times business will go towards path of lest resistance.
Poker rooms are very labor intensive when compared to slot space. And the players card in the slot area is (i think) worth more $$ wise than the poker player.
While I think you are right about $$ generated from poker rooms, slots are just a whole lot less trouble to the casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

Slots may be less trouble, but does taking out a poker room and putting in slot machines really make the casino any money?

When was the last time you walked into a casino and saw every machine in use? Or even 75% of the machines in use. If you add more slot machines are you going to get more slot play? Or are you going to simply spread your slot play over a wider numkber of machines?

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

[ QUOTE ]
When was the last time you walked into a casino and saw every machine in use? Or even 75% of the machines in use. If you add more slot machines are you going to get more slot play? Or are you going to simply spread your slot play over a wider numkber of machines?

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone that knows slots once told me that when you have more machines you will get more play with the same number of guests. I guess they try out more machines looking for a lucky one.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

tell me what small room made 500k a year in las veggas.

i very rarely see a small room with players.

you want make munney with small space put girls in bkikinis selling beer. works in bangkok....lol.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

[ QUOTE ]

A fairly busy 10 or 12 table room can easily make several million dollars a year.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many rooms in the entire US have this level of business. I honestly have no idea.

Oh, your arguments remind me of descriptions of venture capitalists sinking what could be steadily profitable businesses by going for the home run mega success because they only need one such success to more than make up for a string of failures. Few people are satisfied with grinding out a slow and steady profit if they think they have a chance at more which is, ironically, why some people fail at playing poker.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

Poker makes money? I guess so. Resorts Casino, East Chicago Indiana:
1/5 Stud poker. $1.00 Ante. $1.00 Bring-In. 10% to $5.00 rake. $1.00 toke. $1.00 Bad Beat. That's $9.00 per pot to the joint, the way each pot typically plays.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

What's a toke? Why would the house collect the bring-in?

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

The dealer gets the toke.(tip) The ante and bring-in go into the pot and the house gets nothing from the BBJ. The only thing the house gets is the $5 rake

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

RR, as usual, hits it on the head: "the demographics have changed", and very recently at that.

Even so, I'd still choose a sportsbook over a poker room. The pit players and slot players are far more likely to insist that the resort where they stay has a sportsbook, than a poker room. If I lose those players to the competition, I'll lose a lot more than I could possibly lose on "one big game" in the sportsbook--because I can often win "one big game" down the road to make up for it.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

You think things are bad over where you live?

Try playing limit he in australia, star city casino.

$5/10 limit, each person pays .75c per hand, regardless of position!. Yes, over 100 hands, you will pay $75, or 7.5bb for the pleasure of playing!

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

[ QUOTE ]
These facts are readily apparent , accessible , clear and unambiguous

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool. Where can I see these facts? A link would be great, but I also have access to great libraries.

Thanks.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

I don't know about the Vegas casinos, but in the two casinos I have experience with (Fallsview and Rama in Ontario), slots take up close to 80% of the floorspace. It's obvious to me that slots are the most profitable gambling "game" per square foot, as they require an absolute minimum of staff to maintain them.

But ...

I have never ever seen close to full capacity at the slots at these two casinos. There is literally no such thing as having to wait to play slots, unless the patron wants to play a specific machine among the thousands.

Thus, the higher profitability of slots is not a relevant issue, in that there is ample spare capacity and no money is being lost by the casino because people who want to play slots, can't (because the casinos have in essence created spare slot capacity by choice).

Contrast this to the small poker rooms these establishments have (17 at Fallview, 12 at Rama). About 5 to 8 hours out of every day there are lengthy waiting lists, representing income lost by the casino because people who want to play poker (and I agree with Al that the poker rooms are profitable) have to wait.

So I think it's misleading to state that since slots are the top earners, this is what should matter most. No - it's the loss of potential income that should be the focus of the casinos.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

[ QUOTE ]
What's a toke?

[/ QUOTE ]
A tip to the dealer

[ QUOTE ]
Why would the house collect the bring-in?

[/ QUOTE ]
They wouldn't, that guy is wrong. The ante, bring-in and the Bad Beat Jackpot drop are returned to the players. I will say that I miss the rake structure at the Wynn.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know about the Vegas casinos, but in the two casinos I have experience with (Fallsview and Rama in Ontario), slots take up close to 80% of the floorspace. It's obvious to me that slots are the most profitable gambling "game" per square foot, as they require an absolute minimum of staff to maintain them.

But ...

I have never ever seen close to full capacity at the slots at these two casinos. There is literally no such thing as having to wait to play slots, unless the patron wants to play a specific machine among the thousands.

Thus, the higher profitability of slots is not a relevant issue, in that there is ample spare capacity and no money is being lost by the casino because people who want to play slots, can't (because the casinos have in essence created spare slot capacity by choice).

Contrast this to the small poker rooms these establishments have (17 at Fallview, 12 at Rama). About 5 to 8 hours out of every day there are lengthy waiting lists, representing income lost by the casino because people who want to play poker (and I agree with Al that the poker rooms are profitable) have to wait.


[/ QUOTE ]

And what, may I ask, do you think most of these players waiting to play poker are doing?

I don't think anyone would really argue that poker rooms don't make money. The queston the casinos deal with is, with a finite amount of space what is the most profitable way to allocate it to all the various methods of gambling that a person can participate in.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

Excellent counterpoint. There is no doubt poker is a lot more work + haasle for less money. But it still aint going away. Good post.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

Great hotels have great swimming pools too, that cost huge amounts of money to build, staff and maintain. Yet those are free to use, at least for guests. Why don't they shut down the pool and use the space for slot machines?

What about the fountains at the Bellagio, or the waterwheel in the conservatory? I am sure the Bellagio could make more money on a balance sheet by shutting those down and putting in slot machines. Yet they don't, and, surprisingly, the Bellagio is very successful.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

Years before the Moneymaker era poker was the loss-leader of the casino. Just as the local grocery store sells their milk at a loss to draw people in the doors the casinos would maintain the games and the poker rooms to draw players into the room in hopes that these players will gamble in the other more profitable areas. At the time the rake was required to get the casino closer to the break even point not to necessarily provide a profit.

This is where all of these "myths" were created, I believe they were also perpetuated in some books that I recall reading that were published before the Moneymaker era. Obviously people read this and without looking at the math or using common sense they still believe that poker is not <u>profitable.</u>

On the other hand, casino suits are required to maximize the profit of their casino for the long term. In doing so, the finite amount of space available on the casino floor must be properly used to gain the full expected value of each customer. Sure there is a ton of available space for poker rooms in the desert, but the question is, if the casino can make more in the more lucrative space, on the strip properties for example, the casino will do what it needs to do as far as removing poker rooms and replacing with slots. If the casino thought it would be profitable to build a poker room in the desert off the lucrative area of the strip I am sure some would have by now.

After Chris Moneymaker made poker popular poker became such a huge draw to the common espn watching poker fan, that may not have otherwise come to the casino. It is with this craze that we saw poker rooms being expanded to hopefully lure these potentially lucrative gamblers. Also with this craze brought more action, which allowed for more open games which generates more rake, allowing rooms to finally be profitable.

Now that the poker craze is seemingly slowing down, we are seeing rooms on and off the strip, that may not have been as popular, close or downsize. Some rooms are taking away tables that rarely are filled and replacing them with machines that may rarely be used, but stand alone on their own and do not require constant labor and supervision.

Also, as poker seems to slow down, the casinos are now viewing the poker players themselves as preventing the casino from fully maximizing on their expected value from its customers. Considering most winning poker pros tend to keep their money away from table games and slots, this money from other gamblers who lost it, that the casino originally attracted in in hopes to be wagered at other games, is no longer making it to the pits. If Player A, who was planning to play Blackjack, but wants to play poker first, loses all of his money at poker, the expected value that was possible to achieve, was not maximized. Granted the poker room was able to make money off of the rake generated by Player A, they were not able to maximize the full value of the action that Player A would normally give the casino.

For this reason, some smaller casinos, that may not make a ton of money off of poker, would be likely to remove it to make the space more profitable and to eliminate who they see as a competitor for the customers money.

Without a doubt, poker is now profitable, but the bottom line is that it is not the most profitable for the casino if the trend starts to taper off.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

I would like to preface my post by admitting that all my analysis is simply opinion/rumour. I don't have any "actual facts" relating to the profitability of poker roooms. I've heard rumours that such facts are readily apparent and accessible, but once again, that's only what I've heard.

I'm pretty sure there are poker rooms that make money. There are probably some poker rooms that don't. I don't know.

I think a helpful way to look at this issue is to consider what the answer of casino executives would be to the following question: Would you perfer a world with no poker?

I would imagine the reasons supporting the existence of poker would fall almost entirely on an "increasing the size of the pie" argument.

It seems clear that the most popular form of gambling on TV these days is poker. Big poker tournaments like the WSOP bring in thousands of players to a property/area and I'm sure many of these players play out in the pit. The prevalence of hold'em (and other forms of gambling) on TV creates more gamblers thus increasing the bottom line for casinos.

Nevertheless, I would still belive that nearly all casino executives would rather have a world with no poker. I've played B%M poker pretty regularly for a while now. When I play, I like to think of myself as the house. I try to only play at tables where I have a +EV. When my opponents play poorly, I benifit. It's just like when anybody decides to play a house game. They are taking a certain % the worst of it as payment to the casino in exchange for the pleasure of playing the game.

I've always considered one of the worst nightmares of a casino is the large pit player who converts to poker. Take a guy who is willing to lose 10k over a weekend out in the pit. He'll give 100s of k in action at BJ, craps, whatever. And on each of those transactions the house will earn a percentage . If he converts to poker and plays at a game where he plays poorly in comparision to his opponents, then his opponents will earn that percentage. The house in that case is essentially left with a flat rate--the rake/time charge .

I heard a story 3 or 4 years ago while playing at the Mirage. Somebody was sayin' that Steve Wynn had done an interview for a newspaper or somethin' shortly after the Mirage first opened. The reporter asked Wynn if he had any plans for expanding the poker room. Wynn replied, "I didn't build the Mirage so that Doyle Brunson and Chip Reese could become millionaries."

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

[ QUOTE ]
Great hotels have great swimming pools too, that cost huge amounts of money to build, staff and maintain. Yet those are free to use, at least for guests. Why don't they shut down the pool and use the space for slot machines?



[/ QUOTE ]

Becoz they charge like $7 for a 59 cent beer + tip to hostess and most allow no coolers at pool...cabana they charge $300+ for patch of concrete...burger at pool...dont even go there....

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've always considered one of the worst nightmares of a casino is the large pit player who converts to poker. Take a guy who is willing to lose 10k over a weekend out in the pit. He'll give 100s of k in action at BJ, craps, whatever. And on each of those transactions the house will earn a percentage . If he converts to poker and plays at a game where he plays poorly in comparision to his opponents, then his opponents will earn that percentage. The house in that case is essentially left with a flat rate--the rake/time charge .


[/ QUOTE ]

The opposite goes too. Random mid-high stakes poker pros getting shitfaced and dropping 20-30k on blackjack or craps on a Saturday night probably isn't a rare occurance. Something that brings kids in their 20s who probably like to party and have wads of cash into the casino can't be all bad. Also, for BIG pit gamblers, there generally won't be a poker game big enough to pique their interest. A guy that plays $50,000 a hand baccarat isn't going to give a [censored] about the 400/800 mixed game going in the poker room.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

[ QUOTE ]

Contrast this to the small poker rooms these establishments have (17 at Fallview, 12 at Rama). About 5 to 8 hours out of every day there are lengthy waiting lists, representing income lost by the casino because people who want to play poker (and I agree with Al that the poker rooms are profitable) have to wait.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that the problem is not the length of the waiting list, but the average length of a wait before people on the list get seated. I've seen rooms have 3 tables at a given limit and start a new table as soon as they get ten names on the list without evaluating how likely players are to leave the existing games so that thirty minutes later you have four tables whining that they each have two empty seats.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

the problem here is too many of you are poker players.

casinos dont revolve around poker....lol. poker, keno, sports, just complimentary to the main attractions.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've always considered one of the worst nightmares of a casino is the large pit player who converts to poker. Take a guy who is willing to lose 10k over a weekend out in the pit. He'll give 100s of k in action at BJ, craps, whatever. And on each of those transactions the house will earn a percentage . If he converts to poker and plays at a game where he plays poorly in comparision to his opponents, then his opponents will earn that percentage. The house in that case is essentially left with a flat rate--the rake/time charge .

[/ QUOTE ]

I've often disagreed with your logic (or perhaps your presentation) but you hit the nail on the head here. Add in the bad manners of the typical casino poker grinder and it's not hard to see why poker could be once again pushed aside if (or when) it losses popularity.

~ Rick

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

[ QUOTE ]
You think things are bad over where you live?

Try playing limit he in australia, star city casino.

$5/10 limit, each person pays .75c per hand, regardless of position!. Yes, over 100 hands, you will pay $75, or 7.5bb for the pleasure of playing!

[/ QUOTE ]

That will nit-proof the game for sure [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

~ Rick

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

[ QUOTE ]
There was a time not long ago that I worked in a poker room that was making a small profit. The casino decided to give up that small profit to replace it with empty space to get poker players out of their casino. The demographics have changed enough that casinos suits (for the most part anyway) aren't concerned about poker players scaring away their other guests.

[/ QUOTE ]

Randy - I wonder if you knew a northern Nevada based card room manager named Dan Sullivan who used to post on RGP several years back.

I believe he's retired now put he had great posts on the realities of card room surveillance and other good stuff. But to me his most memorable comment was that he considered it his job to make his cardroom invisible to upper casino management. In essence it was because he knew how awful the grinder/nit/poker players treated the high rolling casino guests when they choose to sit in a poker game.

Just before posting found this classic thread which relates in part to the topic of poker room profitability along with other items of interest. Highly recommended read especially if you include my links to Dan's three part series on surveillance.

~ Rick

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

"And what, may I ask, do you think most of these players waiting to play poker are doing?"

If they are anything like me, they are pacing and/or watching games from the rail until a seat opens up. Probably the number of times they visit the casino is inversely proportional to the length of the wait.

I don't think its unreasonable to suppose that well over half of the new breed of poker players wouldn't visit the casino - ever - if there was no poker there. I certainly wouldn't, as I have no interest in playing table games or slots.

If they magically found the space to double the size of the Fallsview poker room, there would be shorter waits, perhaps more game variety, and so people would come more often. Casual drop-in types, seeing that there is an immediate seat open, might choose to sit down in a poker game instead of leaving the casino after they've had their fill of table games and/or slots.

In short you would significantly increase the number of people coming into the casino and in some cases lengthen their stay.

Conversely, if you added 100 more slot machines (about the equivalent space wise of doubling the poker room), I doubt you'd get more than a tiny fractional increase in income - because there is such a large surplus of unused machines already.

And don't forget that high rollers sometimes win big at table games and spend that money somewhere else. You can't count on them dropping all their cash in the craps game. The casino gets guaranteed money from poker.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

Good points. If these casinos have lengthy waiting lists for much of the day all the time, they should expand their poker rooms. Seems obvious to me.

The thing is, poker is here to stay. Poker players want to play poker, and they will play at your casino or someone else's. I don't know many that are willing to play blackjac or slots just because there are long lists. Most will just go somewhere else.


Much of the time small poker rooms will be empty, but there's often a reason other than "nobody wants to play poker." Usually small rooms are buried in the back, far from the main casino action, far from anyone stolling casually by; a crappy little room in a lousy location, staffed by underpaid mopes who don't give a darn anyway. These rooms have been given the perfect recipe for failure.

In contrast, a small room with a great location and enthusiastic, friendly staff can be very successful.

Essentially you will get out of something only what you put into it.

Al

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There was a time not long ago that I worked in a poker room that was making a small profit. The casino decided to give up that small profit to replace it with empty space to get poker players out of their casino. The demographics have changed enough that casinos suits (for the most part anyway) aren't concerned about poker players scaring away their other guests.

[/ QUOTE ]

Randy - I wonder if you knew a northern Nevada based card room manager named Dan Sullivan who used to post on RGP several years back.

I believe he's retired now put he had great posts on the realities of card room surveillance and other good stuff. But to me his most memorable comment was that he considered it his job to make his cardroom invisible to upper casino management. In essence it was because he knew how awful the grinder/nit/poker players treated the high rolling casino guests when they choose to sit in a poker game.

Just before posting found this classic thread which relates in part to the topic of poker room profitability along with other items of interest. Highly recommended read especially if you include my links to Dan's three part series on surveillance.

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know him, but I remember reading those threads years ago. It was also fun to see the names of regular RGPers that I haven't seen anything from in years.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

[ QUOTE ]

I don't think its unreasonable to suppose that well over half of the new breed of poker players wouldn't visit the casino - ever - if there was no poker there. I certainly wouldn't, as I have no interest in playing table games or slots.


[/ QUOTE ]

blueodom, I think you are off a bit on this estimate, but the point remains that poker is introducing new people to casinos.

More important, poker is the way young men (and women) are now introduced to gambling, in the US and likely other countries where the game has some penetration (UK, Germany, the Netherlands).

It has only been 4 years since Moneymaker won the WSOP. The impact of that young generation will persist.

They may not completely equate casinos with poker, but the association is there. They will expect poker to be available.

Just because the boom is over does not mean something fades away. Railways are still in business, the Internet is in use, and tulips are still pretty popular flowers [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

[ QUOTE ]

And what, may I ask, do you think most of these players waiting to play poker are doing?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've actually found it surprising how little casinos do to encourage waiting poker players to play the tables or the slots. Often, the layout is such that you cannot go to a pit and still see the waiting list. As a result, players end up sitting around in the poker lobby, not losing money to the casino shareholders.

There are a few exceptions. Borgata recently moved a craps table right outside the poker lobby. Additionally, the Venetian set up a small table games pit right outside the poker lobby, though it's only open at peak times.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

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And what, may I ask, do you think most of these players waiting to play poker are doing?

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I've actually found it surprising how little casinos do to encourage waiting poker players to play the tables or the slots. Often, the layout is such that you cannot go to a pit and still see the waiting list. As a result, players end up sitting around in the poker lobby, not losing money to the casino shareholders.

There are a few exceptions. Borgata recently moved a craps table right outside the poker lobby. Additionally, the Venetian set up a small table games pit right outside the poker lobby, though it's only open at peak times.

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A big part of this is that for whatever reason different departments in casinos do not communicate or cooperate.

Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money
 

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More important, poker is the way young men (and women) are now introduced to gambling, in the US

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Don't be so sure that this is different than in the past.ii can't think of a gambling game I playe3d before I played poker (maybe I flipped baseball cards first but it would be close) As a small child I and my friends knew draw poker. As I got older we learned stud. I remember my first trip to a casino (it was with a couple of guys who I regularly played poker with) we didn't even think of poker on that trip. It wasn't till years later that I starte dto equate poker with caasino poker.

I would venture to guess that is a very common experience.