Do I need both ToP and SSHE
 

I am looking at the various 2+2 books (holdem poker, holdem for advanced players, sshe, and top) and trying to decide which ones to get. It seems that some of them have similiar structures from looking at the table of contents and I could maybe narrow it down to two texts: sshe and top

I am wondering if I should get both Theory of Poker and SSHE. I am on a little bit of a budget so I don't want to spend money for a rehash of material if I can get away with just buying SSHE. Any help would be appreciated.

Re: Do I need both ToP and SSHE
 

If it makes a difference, I read Lee Jones' book and internet texas holdem.

Re: Do I need both ToP and SSHE
 

Get both TOP and SSHE if you possibly can.

No way that either of those could be regarded as a rehash of the other.

Good Luck.

Re: Do I need both ToP and SSHE
 

Do you play small stakes limit hold-em? Then SSHE is by far the best book you can get. But they don't really contain much of the same material. SSHE is much more of a "cook book" telling you what hands to play when, and TOP is much more generalized...it's almost all broad concepts that can apply to any poker game without giving specific situational recommendation.

Re: Do I need both ToP and SSHE
 

OK thanks for the info. I am reading about 1 poker book a week for the past month so I should just pony up the dough and get both.

Re: Do I need both ToP and SSHE
 

You still didn't answer what game you primarily play.

If you play limit holdem live 10/20 and under, SSHE is the BEST book ever written on loose/passive calling station type games.
It's a must have for all limit holdem players.

Theory of Poker is probably the best all around book on general concepts that apply to any type of poker game at any level.
This is also a must have.

If you play primarily online limit holdem "Holdem Poker for Advanced Players" may be best.
If you play primarily no limit just get TOP for now.
If you play primarily NL tourneys get Harrington on Holdem 1-3.

Re: Do I need both ToP and SSHE
 

I am focusing on my small stakes limit holdem cash game right now. I want to keep reading and playing online with the goal of eventually playing live.

I was mostly playing in NL MTTs and SNGs off and on for the past 3 years, but the more I read about tourney strategy, the more I realized that a solid foundation in limit holdem would really benefit my poker knowledge (and give me another type of game that I could play).

The funny thing is that the more you learn, the more you realize how much you don't know yet. I am at the point where I am starting to think more logically about my game and realize that I am not as good of a player as I thought I was.

Re: Do I need both ToP and SSHE
 

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I was mostly playing in NL MTTs and SNGs off and on for the past 3 years, but the more I read about tourney strategy, the more I realized that a solid foundation in limit holdem would really benefit my poker knowledge (and give me another type of game that I could play).


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A solid foundation in Limit will help your over-all NL game. Don't listen to the min-bet haters. Plus, most other games such as Stud, Omaha, etc are mostly spread Limit, especially live.

Yes, get both. It can only help to learn more.

Re: Do I need both ToP and SSHE
 

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Do I need both ToP and SSHE

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Both books are a must read and in top5 (if not top3) of the best poker books ever so I highly recommend getting them both.

Also remember that both are not a type of book that you read but a type of book that you need to study.
There are lot of extremely important poker concepts in them and be prepared to invest much more time in them then a week per book.

yes.
 

you need both. both are great books.

ssh is great at explaining a lot of advanced hold em concepts and how to play. in practical terms it will teach you which hands to play, which hands to raise for a positive expectation, position, counting outs, odds, flop texture, protecting you hand, etc.

theory of poker is very different. i consider it the best and most important poker book ever written. it teaches you theory. it discusses, theory that applies to every decision you make at the table. basic game theory that applies to every decision you make in life. it covers why to raise, why to bluff, why calling is correct even if you think you are a dog to win a pot, playing hands deceptively, position, implied odds, theory of semi-bluffing, etc. you will read top several times after your initial read, and you will find that you reread this at least once a year for the next ten years.

and i also think that even though you are on a budget hpfap will more then pay for itself.

Re: Do I need both ToP and SSHE
 

ToP should be read by every poker player regardless of game, and there is no substitute for it (although a lot of the material does appear in other sources).

SSHE is a very practical LHE book. It easily applies to all of the limits most players here are concerned about. It's had a couple critics that say some of the smaller stakes don't resemble the descriptions of the games in the book (and there is some truth to that), but it's very sound.

Re: yes.
 

below is a list of the poker books that i consider to be the most important for my development. there is no order.

The Theory of Poker
Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players
Small Stakes Hold 'em
Harrington on Hold 'em Volume I
Harrington on Hold'em Volume II
Harrington on Hold'em Volume III
Seven Card Stud for Advanced Player
High-Low Split Poker, Seven Card Stud and Omaha Eight or Better for Advanced Players
Sklansky on Poker
Gambling Theory and Other Topics
Getting the Best of It
Inside the Poker Mind
Poker Esasys I
Poker Esasys II
Poker Eassys III
Poker, Gaming, & Life



also good:

Weighing the Odds
Middle Limit Hold 'Em
No Limit Hold 'em theory & Practice
How Good is your Limit Poker
Professional No Limit Hold 'em
Tournament Poker for Advanced Players

Re: yes.
 

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below is a list of the poker books that i consider to be the most important for my development. there is no order.

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Here's mine, stripped down to essentials:

LHE: Small Stakes Hold 'em
7Stud: Seven Card Stud for Advanced Players
7Stud8/O8: High/Low for Advanced Players
NLHE cash: Harrington 1 + Professional No Limit Hold 'em
NLHE tourney: Harrington 1 + 2

Immediately after reading the above I'd go straight to Theory of Poker. After that there are a number of good books to move on to if you play LHE or NLHE.

I also omitted some very good starter books like Little Green Book, Getting Started in Hold 'Em, and Hold 'em Poker. I like them, but I think you could do just as well going right to the more intermediate level books.

Re: yes.
 

I'll go out and say that ToP did nothing for my game. It is an interesting laundry list of poker tactics, but I thought that 98% of it has been published in books that are easier to read.

Re: yes.
 

Does any one ever actually see a game on the internet like the games SSHE describes? Even .50/1 online seems to be tighter than the sort ofgames SSHE is aimed at

Re: yes.
 

depends on the table and the site. sometimes you get different table conditions at the same table throughout the evening

Re: yes.
 

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Does any one ever actually see a game on the internet like the games SSHE describes? Even .50/1 online seems to be tighter than the sort ofgames SSHE is aimed at

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Probably not online but where I play live the games are loose with family pots at 2/4, 5/10 and sometimes 10/20

Re: yes.
 

I agree. When I first read SSHE, I only played online and was wondering what he was talking about. The loosest games I found online qualified as his description of tight. Then I started playing live and the loose tables were just like he described. I also see 10/20 live as the level where the play is tighter, more aggressive, and has more tricky players.

Re: yes.
 

if you play commerce up to at least 100/200 on a weekend night you see the types of games ssh describes.

Re: yes.
 

I seldom see those type of games in Vegas. On the rare occasion that I do see them, there's always a monster luckbox that's winning all the money and everyone else is chasing to try to bust him.

Re: yes.
 

Where are you guys ordering your books from? Amazon?

Re: yes.
 

Thanks to everyone who recommended that I do read ToP. It may not be a necessary read for all poker minds, but it definitely was for mine.

Now I understand a lot more of what y'all say on this forum.

Re: yes.
 

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I seldom see those type of games in Vegas. On the rare occasion that I do see them, there's always a monster luckbox that's winning all the money and everyone else is chasing to try to bust him.

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Huh? Seldom? Man, I seldom see games that aren't, and I'm out of those and into one that is as quick as you can say, "table change!"

At the Orleans yesterday, typical loose/passive game exactly as described. At Red Rock last night, weak/tight, exactly as described.

SSHE was written for live games, not online. With that in mind, it's THE book for low limit holdem games in LV.

CJ

Re: yes.
 

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I seldom see those type of games in Vegas.

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Then you must be playing a different game than low-to-mid limit Holdem.

Re: yes.
 

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SSHE was written for live games, not online. With that in mind, it's THE book for low limit holdem games in LV.

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Almost all books are mistitled, and SSH is no exception. It's not for "small stakes", it's for loose games where "many" of your opponents are weak. It's not the stakes, it's the table conditions.

It applies equally well to online and live play. Granted, for online this usually means .25/.50 or lower, and live it means everything up to $15/30 and sometimes higher. But the stakes aren't the point.

OP, you should read ITH first, and then SSH second.

Re: yes.
 

OP if you are on a budget and would rather borrow TOP rather than buy it, send me a PM.

Re: yes.
 

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OP if you are on a budget and would rather borrow TOP rather than buy it, send me a PM.

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Thank you for your offer. I ended up buying it because it seemed that it was definitely a necessary book from what people said. I'm glad I bought it. Just finished reading and feel like I have a better understanding of winning in poker and even a better understanding of material in books that I read previously (several "ah-huh" moments).

I really appreciate the gesture, though. There's a lot of cool people on this forum! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]