Play though a hand with me here....
 

I'll be posting this hand in steps. Once discussion about a particular decision has died down I'll say what I did next and what else happpened.

$4000 buy in MTT, about 300 entrants, 40 spots pay. Start with 10,000 chips.

Play has been going on for about 2 hours. Blinds are now 100/200. I have been at the same table the entire time, but quite a few people have busted and new people have been shuffled in. I have 17,000 in chips, which is slightly above average in the tourney but is slightly below average at the table.

I'm in EP with 4-5 of diamonds.

UTG is a tricky player who limp with monsters and many times will slowplay too much and get himself in trouble. He will also occassionally make moves that are simply weird and pretty unexplainable. He looks at his cards, takes a longer time than usual to act, and min. raises to 400. I have never seen him min. raise or raise from EP.

I'm next to act.

I do have reads on several of the players behind me...Generally speaking, several of them are very loose with their calls. I will give more details on specific players as they become pertinent to the hand.


Even though I'm out of position, I decide that the stacks are so deep and theres a decent chance that he has a monster that maybe I could take his whole stack here. I'll take a gamble and call. Thoughts on this? Too loose? I'll stop here for now...

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

Too loose for me, this would mean that almost every hand you could speculate based on the same principle. For others, i'm sure this is fine.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

The principal is fine but I don't like the cards enough to risk it in this case. 56s maybe, 67s more likely but I've found myself at the wrong end of a read and the wrong end of a straight too many times with 45.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

[ QUOTE ]

UTG is a tricky player who limp with monsters and many times will slowplay too much and get himself in trouble.

Generally speaking, several of them are very loose with their calls.


I decide that the stacks are so deep and theres a decent chance that he has a monster that maybe I could take his whole stack here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on this information, which is just about everything you detailed about reads on these players up until now, I think you can make a call in this spot. I don't necessarily love the idea of playing a hand like 54s out of position, but if you know that you're either nailing the flop hard or jumping ship then it isn't so bad.

I especially like this if your reads on the remaining players would indicate that there will almost definitely be no reraising behind you. This is a very important thing to me here because a hand like this would certainly be folded to a reraise behind you.

The problem here is that your post is starting out as a very read dependent situation. Playing this hand in a vacuum I would fold instantly but playing live in a structure like this you really need to be able to rely on your reads to make choices like this easier. The composition of your table is integral to how this hand plays out and I would think that providing more of your information on player reads, which you say you will detail later as the information becomes pertinent, would be very helpful here. Do you make this call at a table where you've just been moved and are now playing your first hand there? Probably not. There's a reason you're making this call and filling the rest of us in on why you feel this way helps our decision making process.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

Just a little too loose for me, but if your comfortable playing this hand then go ahead and call. I dont think calling preflop is a mistake at all

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

I fold due to risk of reraise from behind.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

I think it's necessary to know more about the players behind you then the one before you, but in this scenario, I'm getting out of the way b/c if there is a raise behind me and he re-raises, then I'm getting sandwhiched and I'm just throwing money away. If I think that the pot will either get folded or called around, then I understand the mindset. I think the cards, lack of reads and position make this an easy fold.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

I apologize for not giving full info...

Most of the players here are very good players. Several of them are indeed capable of raising behind me. However-and this is a key point imo- they are very peceptive players, and I think that most of them(if not all of them) have picked up on the fact that UTG is a tricky player, as he has slowplayed AA twice in the tourney, once very recently. Therefore, such a small raise has to cause some concern, and I doubt they would re raise without a monster.

This was key in my decision. I do totally agree that it is a bit loose here, and thats why I'm posting this....just trying to get more opinions and views- I certainly could be making a mistake here.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

By slowplaying AA, you mean he limped?

You said he has not min-raised at all?

If these players are good, they understand the UTG raise shows strength and due to the gap effect, your call means more strength. You're only going to get reraised by another monster and called by mid-high pairs and AK/AQs.

I understand the call and can say that I've done it myself a couple of times with this goal in mind.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

[ QUOTE ]
I fold due to risk of reraise from behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the key. I mean, sure if we can see a multi-way pot with this hand, let's do it, especially if UTG will get into trouble and possibly hand his stack over with a monster.

However there is no guarantee that we won't have to put in much more of our stack to see a flop. What happens if other opponents reraise to 1000? The position in the hand could put us in a much dicier spot.

But... it feels as if this hand is going to be interesting so I'm glad you called. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Brad

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

My memory isn't 100%, but I think he limped once with AA. Then another time he raised preflop, but then check/called a non scary flop, and check raised the turn.

Yes, thats my thought process exactly- Not only are they scared of him due to his possible trickiness, but my call in EP also would scare them. I can't see anyone raising without a monster here, so I think its safe to call and hope for a multiway pot with great implied odds.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

I don't mind the call here.

You are deep, implied odds are high.

When I do this I know before hand how I will handle an LP raise etc.

I also promise myself not to get too tied to my draws given my extremely crappy position.

Its not a crime to fold here, but calling with a clear plan is good too.

Regards,
Woodguy

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

[ QUOTE ]
My memory isn't 100%, but I think he limped once with AA. Then another time he raised preflop, but then check/called a non scary flop, and check raised the turn.

Yes, thats my thought process exactly- Not only are they scared of him due to his possible trickiness, but my call in EP also would scare them. I can't see anyone raising without a monster here, so I think its safe to call and hope for a multiway pot with great implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well put. Sounds like you have a plan.. I guess the other opponents would have to wake up with AA or KK to really a repop preflop right?

Brad

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

I don't mind a call by someone of your skill. However, for ME, I will fold in 2nd position, OOP, 100% of the time here. If UTG does something weird, this kind of cancels your read because now you have no idea what he's doing. If you had 87s+, I'd call, and 76s is tough. The stacks are depe enough for a call, but I really don't like it after his out of character play. However, your plan looks like a float call with a strong hand, so other players might be a little worried YOU have a strong hand. Had you been active?

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

[ QUOTE ]
But... it feels as if this hand is going to be interesting so I'm glad you called. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess...cause I'd have turbomucked that from EP regardless of what the guys in front of me did. It's just way too marginal of a hand, even with all the reads you could possibly have. I dunno. 76s, I don't mind 65s, borderline. Suited connectors with a 5 as the high card I'm only playing when I can get in real cheap preflop with a lot of players in ahead of me to give some juicy implied odds.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

Calling is probably ok. My main concern with calling is a raise behind me, or multiple callers behind me and I'm sandwiched in. But with deep stacks and huge implied odds and with you have position on miniraiser I can live with a call. Your hand is such, that you'll either hit the flop hard or dump it. Your hand may be very difficult to play if you flop a draw and there are multiple players behind you to act.


Bruce

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

[ QUOTE ]
Had you been active?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am always very aggressive, so I always seem to think that others will perceive me as active and aggressive. However, I don't think that I had been all that noticably aggressive this day, and nobody had played with me before. I don't think anyone had any great read on me or that I had too much of an image in any particular direction.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

Ok - so what happens after your call?

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

I'm kinda meh to calling here. I think you are gonna have a huge pot PF as there may be others at the table who have the same read and once UTG and UTG+1 are in it's a pretty good way to start a family pot. The only thing that I wouldn't like is getting it repopped to like 2500 behind me and being put to a tough decision. I think I may find a fold here- I would much prefer to be in LP or in one of the blinds but being as we have no hand unless you played it, I'm curious to see what the rest of the action is.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Had you been active?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am always very aggressive, so I always seem to think that others will perceive me as active and aggressive. However, I don't think that I had been all that noticably aggressive this day, and nobody had played with me before. I don't think anyone had any great read on me or that I had too much of an image in any particular direction.

[/ QUOTE ]

This hand could be a great bluff opportunity for you if you get it HU postflop against someone you have a nice read on.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

I think this is to loose of a play with that many people to act behind you. While it's one thing to think they may percieve the min raise as dangerous, I think it's better to be on the safe side and fold.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

While I would agree with the "safe side" late in a tourney when one mistake could mean your tourney is over, why is it better to be on the safe side early in a tourney/against a large stack/when you are above the average chip count?

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

Well for the record, you never stated that the opp. was a deep stack. Second I would be more apt. to call in later pos. Third I think another thing that most people don't think about is getting caught in the middle of two players. That usually puts you in a tough spot as well.

What I'm saying is this-For this play to really work out you have to have a couple things work out perfectly-#1 no one must reraise you from behind #2-You must flop two pair #3-You must be sure that if you do flop two pair you can at least get half his stack or a decent portion.

So with those reasons alone I fold the 45 of diamonds. Now say if he min raises from utg and I'm in LP I'd be more apt to call. This way I pretty much close out the action except for the blinds and I have position on the opp.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well for the record, you never stated that the opp. was a deep stack. Second I would be more apt. to call in later pos. Third I think another thing that most people don't think about is getting caught in the middle of two players. That usually puts you in a tough spot as well.

What I'm saying is this-For this play to really work out you have to have a couple things work out perfectly-#1 no one must reraise you from behind #2-You must flop two pair #3-You must be sure that if you do flop two pair you can at least get half his stack or a decent portion.

So with those reasons alone I fold the 45 of diamonds. Now say if he min raises from utg and I'm in LP I'd be more apt to call. This way I pretty much close out the action except for the blinds and I have position on the opp.

[/ QUOTE ]

I apologize for not being clear that he is a big stack...but he is. He won two big pots slowplaying monsters and he has won a bunch of small pots too.

I agree that if I were likely to get raised behind me, then I must throw this hand away. But do you see why I feel as if a raise is unlikely? Not only does him small raise scare everyone, but my cold call in EP has to strike fear into them also!

Two pair is an option, but the straight can also be deceiving(A-2-3 would be best for me) and could get me someone's entire stack and don't underestimate that I still can get paid off a little bit on a flush, although probably not someone's entire stack.

I guess what it basically boils down to is this: Early in a tourney when I'm slightly above average, I will take a situation that is marginally +/-EV if I think that I can perhaps win a huge pot that will make me a huge stack, as long as I know I can get away from it easily. Of course if I'm below average, then its harder to make this move.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

Would I like 76s better? Sure. Do I hate it with 54s? Nope.

I think the resistance people are putting up to this stems in part to the differences between deep-stack poker and what most of us deal with on-line.

The point is that for under 3% of his stack, the hero can see a flop with a well-disguised hand that has enormous implied odds and very low reverse implied odds.

As I see it here's why:

If Hero is raised pre-flop (unless it is a complete donk raise), he folds with 97% of his stack. At this point t400 chips are worth slightly less than the half-melted ice in his drink.

If the flop misses, Hero check-folds, which is effectively the same as folding pre-flop.

If the flop clobbers Hero he can win a huge pot - implied odds.

And best of all, it would be very hard for the Hero to lose a large pot here. It's not like he's going to fall in love with his top pair only to get outkicked. Sure he could end up with a lower flush or straight (or straight-flush [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]), but that is always the case with suited connectors.

So in short, there is a huge possible upside, and a very small possible downside.

I have to think he's going to flop a draw, and have to play cards on the flop, but that's what deepstack poker is about. (I hear.)

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

I don't think your cold call strikes fear in any typical MTT player.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

The call is fine. Next part of the hand please.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

why not? you need to explain this blanket statement imo.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

I will not explain it, it's general enough. Just move onto the next hand, but I just don't like the call.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think your cold call strikes fear in any typical MTT player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure that was his goal.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

Read the context of the earlier posts.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think your cold call strikes fear in any typical MTT player.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a pretty high stakes tourney against decent competition. Rest assured that I wouldn't think that my call would strike fear into players at some Party MTT. But at this table, I'm pretty sure that my call did. Anyway, on to the next part....

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

Is this a joke? It's been two month since you started the post. We're on pace to hit the river in 2008.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

So I call. As I already explained, I thought that the min. raise of a tricky player combined with an EP call of a good player was enough to scare anyone from raising without a monster, so I was essentially doing the same thing as calling from LP since I didn't really fear a re-raise.

Guy in LP is probably one of the weaker players at the table- not because he is reckless, but because he is very predictable. I talked to him before the tourney and found out that he had won his way in through a sattlite and had never played at anywhere near these stakes. And it showed. He was pretty much playing straightforward ABC poker. Pretty much you could believe his bets for what they represented, and you could push him off a marginal hand easily. He called the bet of 400.

Everyone else folds to the SB. SB was just moved to the table, so I have no reads on him. He calls for 300 more.

BB was a guy who mixed up his play a lot. I thought I had a read on how he acted when he bluffed. Twice I saw him make big bets in fairly standard bluff situations, and both times he would do the classic increased blink rate tell. Once, he was called and it was indeed a bluff. The other time, the guy didn't call him. Now I'm not that great at reading tells, so I don't rely upon these too much, but it was somewhat noteworthy imo. He called for 200 more.

Flop comes 2-7-J rainbow with one club.

SB checks. Now as I said, I hadn't seen him play. But I was 90% sure that the flop missed him and that he was pretty much through with the hand now. Can't really pinpoint why, but it was just a quick "I don't care" check that didn't seem to be acting to me.

BB checks...no real read on him still.

EP raiser checks! I have absolutely no clue what he may have. I think he is one of those guys who may be too tricky for his own good type of people, so I'm still not ruling out AA or KK here.

LP guy is still to act behind you.

Your move.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

No.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well for the record

[/ QUOTE ]

I see that this has been going on for a while, huh good buddy?

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

I'm not sure what the flop is, but I'm interpreting that it completely missed you. In that case, check.

I guess I'll wait 2 more months for the next chapter of this book. The suspense is killing me.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what the flop is

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for being unclear- I edited to make it better.

The flop is 2-7-J rainbow with one diamond.

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

you knw you have diamonds right?


but uh, i say bet out 1k, if Lp raises you you can just get out, and if you get called you can pick up some draws on the turn that you could semibluff (should look like a set). (oh and i assumed you meant 1 diamond on the flop, or, tht we actually have clubs)

Re: Play though a hand with me here....
 

[ QUOTE ]
you knw you have diamonds right?



[/ QUOTE ]

Holy [censored]...sorry guys, its late and I'm at the end of a long up and down session.

THE FLOP CAME 2-7-J WITH ONE DIAMOND.

I don't know why it was seemingly so hard for me to get that right, lol. I edited my one post but the other one(the long one where I explain the flop and opponent's actions) I could no longer edit so it remains incorrect.