An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

This is a post I’ve had written in my head for a long time now. It started in my head as a rant, but it turns out that I’m really just very interested in the topic.

Basically, I want to explore the nearly complete and wholehearted acceptance of sex as a motivator in the culture of the American male. Hopefully, we can all agree on the premise, which is that doing certain things in our lives in the name of getting laid is generally seen as acceptable or even admirable among our group of peers…moreso than in most times in our history.

Why is this? We live in a world with a number of tools and methods to help us understand why we make the decisions we make. Why does it seem like we never focus a spotlight on the sex drive? I never hear my friends or other people who are close to me asking themselves “Why do I want to get laid so badly?” or “Why do I keep banging random chicks/vapid whores/girls I really don’t like/etc?” We call in to question soooo many motivational tools such as money, religion, obligation to others, spite, etc, but it seems like sex is the one invincible, pure, irrefutable motivator in our society. In fact, I will probably have my sexuality called in to question just for posting something like this.

So, EDF, why do we think this? If what I’ve written applies to you, have you ever asked yourself why sex is so prominent in your decision-making process? Have you ever thought about the ramifications of blindly accepting sex as motivator (obviously, I mean this in a psychological sense, not in a spiritual/religious sense)? Is there a logical argument to suggest that fueling the sex drive can ultimately lead to fulfillment or happiness?

If at all possible, I’d like to avoid the “we’re animals and we all have impulses and it’s fine to follow those impulses and possibly even harmful to deny them” argument, because even if it is true, it is an argument that suggests that logic is inapplicable to the situation. There is no way to get a squeeze a good discussion out of that.

I have a lot more to write on this topic, but for brevity’s sake, I’ll stop here and get some responses first.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

Nice post. I often find myself thinking that sex for enjoyment is pretty silly to be such a powerful driver for human action, and that people generally should take it less seriously. EDIT: Of course, I've had a steady source for a long time, which I'm sure colors my opinions.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

Yeah, I guess I wondered why people did such crazy stuff for sex while I was in a relationship. My friends would always be getting ultra drunk, hooking up with some random and regretting it, and I would just sigh and shake my head. Now that I am out it is clear that sex is def something to be desired. However, I just cant sleep with a girl unless I care about her to at least some minimal standard. I have slept with a girl ive known less than a month exactly once and it was def in there with the worst experiences I have had. I guess my point is that if you know sex wont be good unless you really like the person it makes sex with randoms undesirable. This is where I am and it works pretty well. Of course, I am such a stoner that my sex drive might just be lower than normal.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

I grew out of this stage by the time I was 23, if I remember correctly. People who never grow out of this generally tend to lead troubled lives from what I've seen.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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We call in to question soooo many motivational tools such as money, religion, obligation to others, spite, etc, but it seems like sex is the one invincible, pure, irrefutable motivator in our species

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Seriously.

I know you don't want to get into the "its natural" argument because there isn't a good argument there. But that's about it. Your purpose as a member of the species, ultimately, is to keep the species going. You do this by having sex. Therefore, sex drive is built in, or evolved in, or however you want to look at it.

You might have more fertile ground (so to speak) investigating the quality/quantity bifurcation between male and female reproductive behavior systems.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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I often find myself thinking that sex for enjoyment is pretty silly to be such a powerful driver for human action, and that people generally should take it less seriously.

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Dig deeper. Why do you think this way? What negatives come from taking sex too seriously (or what positives are denied from it)?

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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Now that I am out it is clear that sex is def something to be desired.

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Do you mean that now you're out you realize society is very highly driven by sex? Or did you realize that you yourself desire sex? Either way, you make this statement, but the question I posed in the original post is why is this so?

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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I know you don't want to get into the "its natural" argument because there isn't a good argument there. But that's about it. Your purpose as a member of the species, ultimately, is to keep the species going. You do this by having sex. Therefore, sex drive is built in, or evolved in, or however you want to look at it.

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OK, as long as you can agree with what I am about to write, I think all that needs to be said about "it's natural" argument will have been said.

1. Many people have sex for bad reasons and for reasons they don't understand.
2. The "it's natural" argument suggests that the motivations rooted in sex are completely out of our own control.
3. The people referenced in point 1 would gravitate toward using point 2 as a rationalization to perpetuate their unhealthy behaviors.
4. These people would benefit from from having point 2 disproven (something I can't do). They would benefit from that because it would make them more likely to understand why they view sex the way they do.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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Now that I am out it is clear that sex is def something to be desired.

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Do you mean that now you're out you realize society is very highly driven by sex? Or did you realize that you yourself desire sex? Either way, you make this statement, but the question I posed in the original post is why is this so?

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I knew society was driven by sex, but when youre in a relationship and dont have to be like "trying" to go get sex you kind of stop being driven by it. So I guess I kind of felt like I was looking at it as an outsider being like "man wtf is with people and these ultra-urges?". Now that I am single, I understand the urges, I just do not understand how they are so strong in some people. There has never been a time where I would even consider paying for sex, much less doing some of the much worse [censored] people do for sex.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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I knew society was driven by sex, but when youre in a relationship and dont have to be like "trying" to go get sex you kind of stop being driven by it. So I guess I kind of felt like I was looking at it as an outsider being like "man wtf is with people and these ultra-urges?".

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Not the case with me. Even when I am in a long-term serious relationship (as I am now), I still feel the nagging urges to "get laid." When you're off the market, you just process them by thinking "that girl's hot, I'd hit on her if I were single, but I'm not, hey here comes my girlfriend, awesome I get to sleep with her tonight."

And when I'm at a bar/club/party or some place I used to meet girls when I was single, I feel like my hands are tied in some way; like I'm not allowed to do something my body wants to do, which is meet chicks and sleep with them. My brain and heart sort of tackle those instincts and say "you don't need to go through this trouble anymore; you found someone." But I still kind of feel like a sprinter standing on a track with a bandage on my ankle.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

Hey gonores. Cool, I like the direction you're going with this. I'm going to take it one step at a time though.


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1. Many people have sex for bad reasons and for reasons they don't understand.

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Um, what's a bad reason for having sex?

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

Money, guilt, boredom

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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Um, what's a bad reason for having sex?

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You're [censored] a sheep.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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Is there a logical argument to suggest that fueling the sex drive can ultimately lead to fulfillment or happiness?


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Sex is more of a temporary fulfillment of what the majority precieve as happiness. (We get the impression early on that the more sex we have the happier we will be.) However, I think that as we get older and began to have some stability in our lives that sex (for the sake of happiness) isn't much of an issue.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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Money, guilt, boredom

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As long as its not coerced in any way I see nothing wrong with having sex for money. Yes, i know the law disagrees with me.

Alleviating boredom would seem to be a good reason to have sex to me.

And frankly, I don't even understand saving sex because of guilt. Like you feel bad about something you did so you have sex to feel better? Like that?

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You're [censored] a sheep.

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That's a bad /way/ to have sex, not a bad reason, more akin to sexual abuse or sexual violence. Kinda like rape, as the sheep is not a person it cannot consent to having sex with you, so the sex is non-consensual. The act of sex is bad, not the reason.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

Interesting OP.

I'd lump satisfaction of the sex drive in with satisfaction of other bodily functions in terms of how it might be necessary for a basic level of happiness. E.g., if you are hungry or sleepy or in pain then it is hard to be happy. Similarly if you have a strong sex drive that is going unfulfilled. Of course, with sex there is a whole host of social baggage that goes along with it -- most fundamentally, the fact that one's ability to obtain desirable sexual partners is widely and correctly regarded as a measure of one's own sexual desirability (and a lot of people measure their self-worth based on their sexual desirability).

I am skeptical that achieving any particular result with regard to sex and sexual partners can bring long-term fulfillment -- especially since for the vast majority of people it is a fight against time that they are destined to lose. However, I do think it is possible to cultivate sex and seduction as an art form of sorts, the same way it is possible to do this with, say, gourmet cooking, and get some satisfaction from that.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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Money, guilt, boredom

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drunk, only to make other person happy, wanted to feel loved, etc.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

Gonores: (btw, it's odd answering this question given how close I always thought your name was to an STD).

I'll cop to thinking I know some of the reasons some of my actions in some of my past have been driven by sex. Frankly, I'm not sure I want to really discuss to much of it on the internet, but...

...I certainly went through a stretch where I'd bang anything that would get in the cab with me. And I dated a lot of girls for predictable and limited stretches of time, after which I'd move to the next for no real reason.

Aside from being normal, aside from just having a healthy sex drive, aside from the girls I dated not being right for me...

...Aside from all that, I have to suspect the root cause is something deeper, something to do with an awkwardness in those "formative years" of middle school and high school, not fitting in, being teased, having dubious self confidence, and so on.

Finding that once I grew up a little I could make myself attractive to others, say the right things, fit in, well, a lot of this is probably some sort of tied-in insecurity still working itself out.

Now, I'm 31 years old. I've been with my girlfriend a while now, and while I'm not out in bars trying to pick up random chicks I still feel the same "could I?" in the back of my mind. That same question, that same need for validation.

I don't think it's anything to do with my girlfriend or our relationship, which I believe is solid and rewarding and unlike anything I've ever had before (and despite this post I've had previous committed, rewarding relationships). I think those questions and my prior behavior are tied into some more deep-seated lack of confidence, even though on a purely logical and intellectual level I know I can probably let that go now.

Anyway.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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Now, I'm 31 years old. I've been with my girlfriend a while now, and while I'm not out in bars trying to pick up random chicks I still feel the same "could I?" in the back of my mind. That same question, that same need for validation.

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I'm getting married in 9 weeks and I still occasionally have thoughts like these. I'm pretty sure it's completely standard. But are these thoughts/anxieties actually driving your actions? It seems like OP is not just talking about the urge to have sex, but how that shapes the rest of our behavior.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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I have to suspect the root cause is something deeper, something to do with an awkwardness in those "formative years" of middle school and high school, not fitting in, being teased, having dubious self confidence, and so on.

Finding that once I grew up a little I could make myself attractive to others, say the right things, fit in, well, a lot of this is probably some sort of tied-in insecurity still working itself out.

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Elsapo might be onto something here. I have no problem admitting I wasn't the best with girls during my younger years. I had friends who were "skilled" though. No one faults a 17 year old for his uncontrolable sex drive, they just expect him to grow out of it. Some guys, who don't discover that "skill" until college, or later, do tend to get looked down upon for playing catch-up. I'm not saying what's right or wrong, nor am I still obsessed with trying to get laid at every opportunity, but Elsapo's theory seemes to make sense to me.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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Now, I'm 31 years old. I've been with my girlfriend a while now, and while I'm not out in bars trying to pick up random chicks I still feel the same "could I?" in the back of my mind. That same question, that same need for validation.

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I'm getting married in 9 weeks and I still occasionally have thoughts like these. I'm pretty sure it's completely standard. But are these thoughts/anxieties actually driving your actions? It seems like OP is not just talking about the urge to have sex, but how that shapes the rest of our behavior.

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I'd have to say yes. From talking to random girls in bars (even now, I suppose) to my actions when I was younger, I think it's more action-oriented and less theortical.

On the flip side, if everyone says I'm normal I can run with that also.

But really, rarely did I care how attractive someone was. I always felt like what I really wanted to know was, "will she?"

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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Um, what's a bad reason for having sex?

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This is really, really broad, but I guess the main "bad reason" I had in mind would be when you have sex for the sake of validation or acceptance even though your partner either cannot or will not validate you as a person.

Another big one would be to distract you from some negative feeling or situation.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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Sex is more of a temporary fulfillment of what the majority precieve as happiness. (We get the impression early on that the more sex we have the happier we will be.)

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Really well put. I agree with your sentiment.

What are the chances you could expound upon what exactly it is that creates that temporary perception of fulfillment?

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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This is really, really broad, but I guess the main "bad reason" I had in mind would be when you have sex for the sake of validation or acceptance even though your partner either cannot or will not validate you as a person.

Another big one would be to distract you from some negative feeling or situation.

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But these are not necessarily blanket bad reasons. Lots of people might find these perfectly acceptable under some circumstances.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

Sapo,

Not shocked that you would be the first to really open up and get into the some of material I'm looking for. Thanks for sharing.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

All,

I'd like to clarify something. I meant to be very broad when I said

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doing certain things in our lives in the name of getting laid is generally seen as acceptable or even admirable among our group of peers

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This doesn't just mean getting drunk or lowing your standards. This encompasses things like going to the gym and focusing on looking attractive instead of increasing your health. Also, things like maybe going to medical school or buying a rolex or going to a lame social gathering even though you don't think it'll be fun would apply. Literally anything that has been done in the name of increasing the chances of having sex can fall under this umbrella.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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But these are not necessarily blanket bad reasons. Lots of people might find these perfectly acceptable under some circumstances.

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GAH. THIS IS THE EXACT POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE. Why does our society think this line of rationale is acceptable? It is my contention that having sex for these "bad reasons" is detrimental to one's overall happiness and well-being. Seeking validation from someone who knows very little about you can wreak havoc on one's overall psyche.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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But these are not necessarily blanket bad reasons. Lots of people might find these perfectly acceptable under some circumstances.

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GAH. THIS IS THE EXACT POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE. Why does our society think this line of rationale is acceptable? It is my contention that having sex for these "bad reasons" is detrimental to one's overall happiness and well-being. Seeking validation from someone who knows very little about you can wreak havoc on one's overall psyche.

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You seem to be looking for more of a one size fits all approach to how people should behave. I'm not on board for such a thing. I think people will have widely varying importances that they assign to sex, and I think that is as it should be. If you would like to argue that for many people that valuation is too high, then I think you're probably right. However, to use one of your examples, I suspect there are many people for whom having sex as a distraction is outright positive, and not just not bad.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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We call in to question soooo many motivational tools such as money, religion, obligation to others, spite, etc,

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these motives rarely get called into question unless the actions they inspire are deemed unethical. It's the same thing with sex actually.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

I mean, I like sex and I have a sex drive, because I like being with women. Like, for whatever reason, I find being in love to be about the greatest thing there is, and a lot of the stuff on the way to that is really damn good, too. Even when I'm not in love with a girl, I still like being with the ones i'm attracted to. That's a hell of a lot of fun.

And you can say that, well, I'm genetically wired that way, to think I fall in love, and think I enjoy the company of women, just to get me to procreate, because that's how we evolved, but, I mean, at a certain level, what's the difference?

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But these are not necessarily blanket bad reasons. Lots of people might find these perfectly acceptable under some circumstances.

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GAH. THIS IS THE EXACT POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE. Why does our society think this line of rationale is acceptable? It is my contention that having sex for these "bad reasons" is detrimental to one's overall happiness and well-being. Seeking validation from someone who knows very little about you can wreak havoc on one's overall psyche.

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What we're really talking about here is probably not sex, but self awareness. Why we do -many- of the things we do, not just why we screw who we do.

Which doesn't really make your statement wrong, only incomplete, I think. Isn't all of this the basis for therapy in general? Working out the underlying reasons we make any of the choices we do?

I've always believed that as long as you understood your choices - where they come from, their implications on yourself and others - as long as we're honest with ourselves, the idea of "bad choices" becomes a little, well, less so.

Granted, that's a high bar. But real self examination and honesty are good goals to set, in all endeavors and not just sex.

The question, I suppose, is whether (assuming some of this is correct) recognizing a supposed "bad reason" makes it less bad. Is it still a crappy idea to do what you're going to do, or does it fundamentally change if you're no longer pulling the wool over your own eyes?

I get the sense that your initial post was made with a specific theory in mind - something close to the post I made earlier, maybe. And while the reason I gave is probably true for some people (and hell, might even be true for me), it's only one reason.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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What we're really talking about here is probably not sex, but self awareness. Why we do -many- of the things we do, not just why we screw who we do.

Which doesn't really make your statement wrong, only incomplete, I think. Isn't all of this the basis for therapy in general? Working out the underlying reasons we make any of the choices we do?

I've always believed that as long as you understood your choices - where they come from, their implications on yourself and others - as long as we're honest with ourselves, the idea of "bad choices" becomes a little, well, less so.

Granted, that's a high bar. But real self examination and honesty are good goals to set, in all endeavors and not just sex.

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This is all really great. I mean, without self-awareness, we don't really have the freedom to choose our courses in life. So all questions of this nature lead to it, and it's important to recognize.

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The question, I suppose, is whether (assuming some of this is correct) recognizing a supposed "bad reason" makes it less bad. Is it still a crappy idea to do what you're going to do, or does it fundamentally change if you're no longer pulling the wool over your own eyes?

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It depends, but in general, I would say that knowing something is bad for you maybe makes it less "bad" from the right/wrong and good/evil standpoint. But you will still suffer detrimental effects, even if your awareness allows you to adapt to them (like, say, an alcoholic who "knows" he has a drinking problem but won't quit).

Of course, another way to look at it is that the truly self-aware never make "bad" choices. How could they? If they are truly self-aware, then they are making the exact choice that is best for them at every moment possible.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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What we're really talking about here is probably not sex, but self awareness. Why we do -many- of the things we do, not just why we screw who we do.

Which doesn't really make your statement wrong, only incomplete, I think. Isn't all of this the basis for therapy in general? Working out the underlying reasons we make any of the choices we do?

I've always believed that as long as you understood your choices - where they come from, their implications on yourself and others - as long as we're honest with ourselves, the idea of "bad choices" becomes a little, well, less so.

Granted, that's a high bar. But real self examination and honesty are good goals to set, in all endeavors and not just sex.

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This is all really great. I mean, without self-awareness, we don't really have the freedom to choose our courses in life. So all questions of this nature lead to it, and it's important to recognize.

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The question, I suppose, is whether (assuming some of this is correct) recognizing a supposed "bad reason" makes it less bad. Is it still a crappy idea to do what you're going to do, or does it fundamentally change if you're no longer pulling the wool over your own eyes?

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It depends, but in general, I would say that knowing something is bad for you maybe makes it less "bad" from the right/wrong and good/evil standpoint. But you will still suffer detrimental effects, even if your awareness allows you to adapt to them (like, say, an alcoholic who "knows" he has a drinking problem but won't quit).

Of course, another way to look at it is that the truly self-aware never make "bad" choices. How could they? If they are truly self-aware, then they are making the exact choice that is best for them at every moment possible.

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Well ... Sometimes we think we're aware of our motivations but we may be deluding ourselves.

Also, some people are self-destructive. But that may be another category of motivation altogether.

Re: An EDF Introspective: S.R.E.A.M.
 

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This encompasses things like going to the gym and focusing on looking attractive instead of increasing your health. Also, things like maybe going to medical school or buying a rolex or going to a lame social gathering even though you don't think it'll be fun would apply. Literally anything that has been done in the name of increasing the chances of having sex can fall under this umbrella.

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Which gets back to the point that everything guys do is related to improving their chances not only at sex, but at the perceived best quality sex partner.

And obviously "everything" or "everyone" isn't exactly accurate, but I think it's generally true, which I think is to your point.

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Well ... Sometimes we think we're aware of our motivations but we may be deluding ourselves.

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Yep... hence my qualifier of the "truly" self-aware. Most of us delude ourselves in at least some capacity, either because it's easier or because we simply don't know any better.

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Also, some people are self-destructive. But that may be another category of motivation altogether.

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Yep-- not everyone's true motives are traditional, and especially with artistic and spiritual types, the destructive goes hand in hand with the creative. It's a release of energy. Not to mention, the destructive has its role for everyone else as well-- you have to tear down a bad foundation before you can build a sturdy home, or something.