Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

villian 1 in this hand is Nick Shulman, still playing very solid...villian 2 is Artie who plays very aggressive, and is very tough to play against out of positions...Artie is stuck big in the game and definitely chasing to get back to even...the hand is 25-50-100-200-400...i start hand with 45k and both villains cover...their read on me is probably on the tighter side preflop with lots of very aggressive play postflop...

folded to Nick in the small blind who makes it 1800...i call from the second straddle with AdJd...Artie calls from the last straddle...

(~6000) flop: Qs Js 6h...action gets checked around...

(~6000) turn Jc...checked to me and i quickly bet 3k...Artie min raises to 6k...and Nick check raises to 16k...action is on you, whats the plan here? After much deliberation i decide to call...Artie folds...

(38k) river 4s...Nick thinks for a long time and bets 37k...who calls and who folds in this spot?

this hand may actually not be as interesting, but i'd like to see comments

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

i would fold turn and then fold river. if this isnt an easy decision, i would be so terrified of nick schulman that i would leave the table right away.

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

I like to re-raise pre flop here often.

I don't really see Nick (note I have NEVER played with him) checking this flop with much of anything that has you beat here, so I'd call.

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

I think i fold turn. He c/r a minraise OOP, i think you split at best.

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

With a line this weird, I think it's too read based for most people to comment. I haven't played enough with Nick to know what to do.

Is his river bet a shove? Aren't you out of chips?

From the little I know, I would play it the same and call river. I wouldn't be surprised if you have the same hand here.

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

nick has to be full here

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

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i would fold turn and then fold river. if this isnt an easy decision, i would be so terrified of nick schulman that i would leave the table right away.

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Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

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villian 1 in this hand is Nick Shulman, still playing very solid...villian 2 is Artie who plays very aggressive, and is very tough to play against out of positions...Artie is stuck big in the game and definitely chasing to get back to even...the hand is 25-50-100-200-400...i start hand with 45k and both villains cover...their read on me is probably on the tighter side preflop with lots of very aggressive play postflop...

folded to Nick in the small blind who makes it 1800...i call from the second straddle with AdJd...Artie calls from the last straddle...

(~6000) flop: Qs Js 6h...action gets checked around...

(~6000) turn Jc...checked to me and i quickly bet 3k...Artie min raises to 6k...and Nick check raises to 16k...action is on you, whats the plan here? After much deliberation i decide to call...Artie folds...

(38k) river 4s...Nick thinks for a long time and bets 37k...who calls and who folds in this spot?

this hand may actually not be as interesting, but i'd like to see comments

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do you have 45k or 55k? the numbers don't work out unless it's 55k. anyways, nick has two of the most bluff happy aggro players in all of nyc behind him (i say this with love [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]), and he knows this. therefore, while NORMALLY i wouldn't expect nick to cr (after checking TWICE) here with a hand that beats yours (and it's impt. he raised oop), I think if there is ever a spot for him to do so, it's with you and artie behind him. (by the way, sandwiched between artie and nick is NOT a fun time).

anyways, the hard part of the hand is artie's turn min raise here, it opens nick up for a squeeze, so his hand range might contain some bluffs in it. however, him having spades here would be so friggin awkward, that I think he is either full or airing it out.

i would put a read on him, stare at him directly for a long time, and either call or fold depending on physical read.

i think logic dictates this is full or bluff, i don't expect to see spades here.

dlpnyc21

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

umm, if i called turn id call river. i think i generally fold turn, but once seeing the river i DEFINITELY call. AJ = QT though imo, but id call with both if i called turn.

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

why would he ever check sopemthing that makes a full house on the flo [pand the turn, i don't get it

i'd call

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

Once you call the turn c/r he has to put you on at least a good jack. You're never calling that with spades & 2 raises on a paired board. If he's got the stones/read to try and bluff you off that on the river then good luck to him; i fold there (and i'm a station). He has QQ?

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

flop/turn combo scream qq or possibly 66 to me, but more likely qq... river bet reinforces that

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

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why would he ever check sopemthing that makes a full house on the flo [pand the turn, i don't get it

i'd call

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Looks like you just fell into his expert trap.

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

i'd fold turn with Artful minraise behind me.

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

Why does noone shove the turn? This is effectively a 200/400 hand... you only have a little over 100 BB's with 45k. There is about 5500 put in preflop, and by the time it gets to you on the turn, 3k + 6k + 16k = 25k + 5500 = 30/31k. Why call? You have AJ, nick probably isn't folding any jack with a worse kicker here... he could have a bunch of draws, and if the river blanks I don't think he bluffs (I seriously doubt nick would put you on a draw, so therefore your turn call = river call, he will shut down IMO). So by calling you are giving him a free shot to beat you if he's semi-bluffing, and I don't see you folding any blank rivers anyways. So where is the value of calling?

Surprised noone has said this, but this is an easy turn shove imo.

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

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Why does noone shove the turn? This is effectively a 200/400 hand... you only have a little over 100 BB's with 45k. There is about 5500 put in preflop, and by the time it gets to you on the turn, 3k + 6k + 16k = 25k + 5500 = 30/31k. Why call? You have AJ, nick probably isn't folding any jack with a worse kicker here... he could have a bunch of draws, and if the river blanks I don't think he bluffs (I seriously doubt nick would put you on a draw, so therefore your turn call = river call, he will shut down IMO). So by calling you are giving him a free shot to beat you if he's semi-bluffing, and I don't see you folding any blank rivers anyways. So where is the value of calling?

Surprised noone has said this, but this is an easy turn shove imo.

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Stacksizes are probably way off in the OP.

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

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umm, if i called turn id call river. i think i generally fold turn, but once seeing the river i DEFINITELY call. AJ = QT though imo, but id call with both if i called turn.

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Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

I feel like i would have a hard time not shoving the turn here. Yah i say shove turn with these stacks [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

i've played a decent amount with artie and if i wanted to play a big pot vs him i'm NEVER checking a hand OOP.
this deep the way to trap artie is to lead into him, maybe even for an oversize bet.
he's way too likely to check back some draw/marginal hand whereas if you lead into him he may decide to just bluff off his whole stack.
esp with him being stuck in the game on a drawy board i think checking QQ oop vs him would be a very suboptimal play.
the only exception to this would be if you have been VERY aggressive and nick can expect you to bet the flop a large % of the time.
however even so it just makes his hand look so strong if he has to CR 2 players that i think he's going to be leading into you guys way more often then he's going to be CR'ing.

i dont like it a whole lot but i'd prolly be stacking off here alot of the time.
that being said i dont think the spade on the river makes his bluffing frequency go up that much because i think spade draws make up a really small % of your range given flop and turn action and nick is prolly pretty sure you aren't full so his river bluffing frequency should be about the same.

Re: Stack sizes
 

this wasnt clear in the original post...instead of saying Nick bet 37k on river i should have said he put me all in...i only had about 27k left facing the all in river bet...i just said 37k b/c it was vivid in my head what he stuck out there...

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

this is a pretty easy turn value shove...

edit: i can deal w/ call call or even call/decide

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

Do people think that Nick ever plays AA or KK this way given that he has 2 very aggressive players behind him?

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

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this is a pretty easy turn value shove...

edit: i can deal w/ call call or even call/decide

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fwiw, i think call call is 100x better than shoving turn. like, its not even close imo.

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

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this is a pretty easy turn value shove...

edit: i can deal w/ call call or even call/decide

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fwiw, i think call call is 100x better than shoving turn. like, its not even close imo.

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You two are so cute.

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

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this is a pretty easy turn value shove...

edit: i can deal w/ call call or even call/decide

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fwiw, i think call call is 100x better than shoving turn. like, its not even close imo.

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You two are so cute.

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You three are so cute.

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

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Why does noone shove the turn? This is effectively a 200/400 hand... you only have a little over 100 BB's with 45k. There is about 5500 put in preflop, and by the time it gets to you on the turn, 3k + 6k + 16k = 25k + 5500 = 30/31k. Why call? You have AJ, nick probably isn't folding any jack with a worse kicker here... he could have a bunch of draws, and if the river blanks I don't think he bluffs (I seriously doubt nick would put you on a draw, so therefore your turn call = river call, he will shut down IMO). So by calling you are giving him a free shot to beat you if he's semi-bluffing, and I don't see you folding any blank rivers anyways. So where is the value of calling?

Surprised noone has said this, but this is an easy turn shove imo.

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agreed fully.

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

All those saying shove the turn, what hands do you think Nick is calling with that we are ahead of? Are we representing flush draw by doing so?

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

Id snap call, and expect to see a bluff.

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

ill shrug my shoulders and call, ill rr turn tho

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

Villains' stacks are pretty important - we need to know more than that whether or not they cover your 45k.

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

My first thought was to shove the turn, but if you're not shoving the turn I would definitely call/call a blank river. On the spade river, though, I think the chances of his either having spades or of his putting you on spades and therefore not bluffing river probably swing it from a call to a fold.

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

Why would he reraise the turn with air after he raised pre and checked the flop.

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

lol

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

fold pre-armed robbery

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

I fold. I wouldnt call here unless i had a good-sized flush.

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

the 4s is kinda a blank tho. how can he ever have a flush here unless he was looking to c/r the flop and decided to c/r the turn vs a bet and a raise. no fd ever plays it that way but a weird bluff might. either its a pure random bluff, has a boat, or long shot kj,j10.we can almost never have a boat or flush if your looking at it in his mind also

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

Aren't there one-pair hands like AQ and KK that Nick might play this way in order to isolate artie on the turn, then turn into a bluff on the river? I'm not really qualified to comment, but it seems like a possibility.

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

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Aren't there one-pair hands like AQ and KK that Nick might play this way in order to isolate artie on the turn, then turn into a bluff on the river? I'm not really qualified to comment, but it seems like a possibility.

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Checking that flop with KK/AQ is pretty dangerous, but I guess it's possible.

But if he decides after your turn call that he thinks KK is beat, I don't think he expects you to fold whatever you have. He played it in an awkward enough manner that I would think, that he would think, that anything > KK is calling this river bet.

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

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the 4s is kinda a blank tho. how can he ever have a flush here unless he was looking to c/r the flop and decided to c/r the turn vs a bet and a raise. no fd ever plays it that way but a weird bluff might.

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this is so obviously wrong: if he thinks it's a good spot to weird bluff why wouldn't it be a better spot to semibluff given that he's got more outs but can't cold call w/a fd anyway

Re: Hand 2: NYC Live 200/400 vs TheTakeover
 

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the 4s is kinda a blank tho. how can he ever have a flush here unless he was looking to c/r the flop and decided to c/r the turn vs a bet and a raise. no fd ever plays it that way but a weird bluff might.

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this is so obviously wrong: if he thinks it's a good spot to weird bluff why wouldn't it be a better spot to semibluff given that he's got more outs but can't cold call w/a fd anyway

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Playing Devil's Advocate:

Cause he'd bet the flop with spades such an overwhelming % of the time?