ATs OOP
 

Villian is: 33/23/4.1 after 120 hands.

My preflop raise is questionable. What do you think about flop and what to do on the turn?

Full Tilt Poker, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

BTN: $23.60
Hero (SB): $70.45
BB: $27.10
UTG: $25
CO: $27.05

Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $1</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $2.50</font>, BB folds, UTG calls $1.50

Flop: ($5.25) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $6</font>, UTG calls $6

Turn: ($17.25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)

Re: ATs OOP
 

First off, I don't 3bet ATs OOP against an UTG raise. Villian is pretty laggy but still, OTB raise is fine, OOP this is closer to a fold than a 3 bet. If you are going to 3bet, $4 at least.

I check this turn and hope for a free card. Villians bet sizing will depend on whether this is a call or not.

SMS

Re: ATs OOP
 

preflop is complete spew unless villain is really bad and you are awesome at play oop which you obv are not. these kind of hands are very difficult to play especially if you flop a draw oop. this is why i am not comfortable with playing those hands and you should just fold as well.
3 betting is even worse than calling and folding is way the best option here.
overbetting the pot on the flop is bad too b/c you don´t increase you fe most of the time and you give yourself bad oods to draw.

Re: ATs OOP
 

mediocre aces are not good hands to be 3 betting light with, especially OOP

Re: ATs OOP
 

Pre-flop play is terrible. Default = Fold. and if you are going to 3bet it it has to be bigger. Like $3.5


Overbetting the pot on the flop is terrible. Bet like 3.5-4.


Turn's a rough spot IMO as stacks make everything awkward. Just shove the turn I guess. Hopefully you have some FE and hopefully your A is an out.

Re: ATs OOP
 

You're make some serious mistakes here, you have to fold preflop and the flop is real bad. This is just spew, dont do it.

Re: ATs OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villian is: 33/23/4.1 after 120 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would recommend you guys read a thread/hand before determining that a spot is good or bad to 3 bet in.

This is an ideal spot to 3 bet, check villains stats and relate it to his likely actions to a 3bet and more importantly his range. so.....


this is a great spot to 3 bet in

this is a great pot to go after on the flop.

this is a really great pot to go after on the turn.

The only disclaimer I would add is that vs the avg 25nl guy this would be spew, but this guy (our villain) is not the typical 25nl villain and we need to pound his [censored] in these situations.

On this board after playing pf correctly by 3 betting I would felt it without a second thought if this guy challenged us on the flop or turn.

Re: ATs OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villian is: 33/23/4.1 after 120 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would recommend you guys read a thread/hand before determining that a spot is good or bad to 3 bet in.

This is an ideal spot to 3 bet, check villains stats and relate it to his likely actions to a 3bet and more importantly his range. so.....


this is a great spot to 3 bet in

this is a great pot to go after on the flop.

this is a really great pot to go after on the turn.

The only disclaimer I would add is that vs the avg 25nl guy this would be spew, but this guy (our villain) is not the typical 25nl villain and we need to pound his [censored] in these situations.

On this board after playing pf correctly by 3 betting I would felt it without a second thought if this guy challenged us on the flop or turn.

[/ QUOTE ]


I said fold should be default. And if you were 3betting it should be bigger....disagree?

Also yea you bet the flop but I dont think the overbet is good....disagree?

And I arrived at the same decision to push turn as you did, but I don't think I'm as happy that this is such a good spot as you are.

Re: ATs OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villian is: 33/23/4.1 after 120 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would recommend you guys read a thread/hand before determining that a spot is good or bad to 3 bet in.

This is an ideal spot to 3 bet, check villains stats and relate it to his likely actions to a 3bet and more importantly his range. so.....


this is a great spot to 3 bet in

this is a great pot to go after on the flop.

this is a really great pot to go after on the turn.

The only disclaimer I would add is that vs the avg 25nl guy this would be spew, but this guy (our villain) is not the typical 25nl villain and we need to pound his [censored] in these situations.

On this board after playing pf correctly by 3 betting I would felt it without a second thought if this guy challenged us on the flop or turn.

[/ QUOTE ]


I said fold should be default. And if you were 3betting it should be bigger....disagree?

Also yea you bet the flop but I dont think the overbet is good....disagree?

And I arrived at the same decision to push turn as you did, but I don't think I'm as happy that this is such a good spot as you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

My comments are on the general play of this hand. I don't really think the + or - of .25 on his 3 bet matters.

I do agree with your point on the bet of the flop, I wouldn't overbet this flop oop or in pos. I'd bet whatever I'd been cbetting in general.

I didn't advocate a shove on the turn although I did say that I'd happily get it in on the turn or the flop.

I can't help how you feel about our position in this hand, its fine, I'm thrilled with how things are going in our favor from a. who the villain is, b. what the flop is, c. what our implied odds are from the flop on.

Re: ATs OOP
 

also I forgot, you said:

[ QUOTE ]
Pre-flop play is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree.

Re: ATs OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
also I forgot, you said:

[ QUOTE ]
Pre-flop play is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't think OP plays OOP with marginal hands as well as you do.

I'm not sure I would play this hand too profitably if I called here and I'd bet that I play postflop a lot better than OP.

Edit: Well I got it mixed and made this post thinking that OP called for some reason.


I don't think 3betting is terrible here. (I think folding most of the time is best but against this villian 3betting sometimes is fine.) However, I did think the sizing of the 3bet made it pretty bad....that's a really small 3bet.

Re: ATs OOP
 

so many of you guys focus on preflop so much because that is the easiest part..you could pretty much play by a chart and play "perfectly" preflop...SO much of this game is post flop. I always see people saying, wtf why am i losing im playing 15/20 should i play even tighter?? its because you suck post flop,
[ QUOTE ]
You're make some serious mistakes here, you have to fold preflop and the flop is real bad. This is just spew, dont do it.

[/ QUOTE ]


if we 3bet preflop we have to cbet this flop...we actually have a pretty good hand right now.

Re: ATs OOP
 

im not sure what u 2 r on...

3 betting some % of the time in this spot is good, but if u do it u must make it bigger &gt;3. lead flop for like 2/3, then depending on opponent i either c/f or bet/c 1/2 or whatever...

Re: ATs OOP
 

People who are saying "OP doesnt play OOP very well" are you saying that, if you can play it well then this is a good hand to 3bet with??? Ok so he did, his raise was small but to the people who think they are great at oop playing how would you have played OP's hand on the flop?? How would a great OOP player play it?? It seems like a pretty straight forward flop play, what would a great OOP player do diffrently?

BTW, I would have had auto fold checked in this spot pre-flop

Re: ATs OOP
 

i dont think its as easy a 3 bet as mentioned

villain is aggressive but i would much rather 3 bet a CO or button raise than a UTG raise

even someone raising 23% of hands would have a fairly tight UTG range here IMO

as played i would 2/3 pot the flop and turn, or probably even c/r the turn all in

Re: ATs OOP
 

[ QUOTE ]
so many of you guys focus on preflop so much because that is the easiest part..you could pretty much play by a chart and play "perfectly" preflop...SO much of this game is post flop. I always see people saying, wtf why am i losing im playing 15/20 should i play even tighter?? its because you suck post flop,
[ QUOTE ]
You're make some serious mistakes here, you have to fold preflop and the flop is real bad. This is just spew, dont do it.

[/ QUOTE ]


if we 3bet preflop we have to cbet this flop...we actually have a pretty good hand right now.



[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I misread the board, thought it was two diamonds, not two hearts. That obviously increases our equity a lot and makes the NORMAL c-bet fine, however, overbetting the pot I think is pretty bad because this is obviously a semi-bluff and if Villain happenes to 3bet us on the flop we lost more than we needed too.

Second... I understand most of this game is postflop... however wouldn't you still want to play perfectly preflop?
This IS the micros, most of us don't play that well with marginal hands anyway, add on being oop and we're in some deep trouble. Maybe thats why we strive so hard to play good hands in position? Maybe thats why we should be folding a marginal hand OOP against an aggressive villain? I'm not saying it isn't profitable to 3bet him here but it might be better if OP 3bet at least in position. This is a fold preflop according to my "perfect hand chart"

Re: ATs OOP
 

I agree my 3 bet should have been more. What hands would you 3 bet this LAG opponent?