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- - STTF SNG->cash thread (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=309487)

futuredoc85

11-29-2007 10:59 PM

Re: $25NL, flop str8

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
villain is 36/19/1.75 after about 150 hands. No real history or reads.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (5 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

Button ($0)
SB ($662.10)
Hero ($619.88)
UTG ($378)
MP ($537.42)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP raises to $16, SB calls $14, Hero raises to $75, MP folds, SB calls $59.

Flop: ($166) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $154, SB raises to $308, Hero ????

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's a fist pump. Hero bet full pot, not a bluff inducer and then villain min-raised. Being as he can't rule out some dangerous hands on your part like 99 or AhKh I don't know why he is minraising and that makes it hard to put him on a hand, but the minraise is weirder for a draw than a made hand isn't it? and I don't see this being anything you crush except maybe JJ. Seems like a really crazy spot for him to be just bluffing.

I'm not necessarily saying fold, but I can certainly see why you aren't happy.

[/ QUOTE ]

i never really pump my fist here, but i never really agonize either. just shrug and call usually.

Dr_Jeckyl_00

11-29-2007 11:35 PM

Re: $25NL trips

I only had a few hands w/ villain but he played in most of them, I think he was 80 vpip for 5 hands when this hand occured. Did I play it correctly? Maybe I should have raised pf?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG+1 ($9.75)
MP1 ($23.65)
MP2 ($26.35)
MP3 ($34.55)
CO ($26.25)
Button ($25.15)
SB ($24.10)
Hero ($28.40)
UTG ($44.25)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
7 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($0.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.5, SB calls $0.50.

Turn: ($1.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.5, SB calls $1.50.

River: ($4.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, SB raises to $8, Hero calls $5.

Final Pot: $20.50

MikeMcQ1

11-30-2007 01:43 AM

Re: $50NL, JJ Overpair OOP Getting Called Down

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

UTG ($57.90)
MP ($26.80)
CO ($48.90)
Button ($65)
jb ($52)
BB ($102.60)

Preflop: jb is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.50, 3 folds, jb raises to $2.5, 1 fold, UTG calls $2.

Flop: ($5.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
jb bets $4.25, UTG calls $4.25.

Turn: ($14) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
jb bets $11.25, UTG calls $11.25.

River: ($36.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

No stats yet on villain my only read is he waited to post and topped off his stack immediately after going through the blinds.

Is my only real choice here to check and see how he responds?

[/ QUOTE ]

What I hate about these spots is that he will only raise you with better hands, but won't call or bet the hands you beat. And could possibly bluff us off the better hand.

I think I'd chicken out and check and re-evaluate, but possibly think that a small bet on the river for value/block is the best line...small enough that he may still call with 22-77 (unlikely), and raise all those hands that beat us, but block a bluff attempt. But I hate giving that line away to a good player, which is the assumption I'm making, cuz I think a very good player could easily bluff raise us here. 44, JTdd, 67dd, and to a lesser extent, 88 and 99 seem the only hands to fit here.

MikeMcQ1

11-30-2007 01:55 AM

Re: $25NL trips

[ QUOTE ]
I only had a few hands w/ villain but he played in most of them, I think he was 80 vpip for 5 hands when this hand occured. Did I play it correctly? Maybe I should have raised pf?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG+1 ($9.75)
MP1 ($23.65)
MP2 ($26.35)
MP3 ($34.55)
CO ($26.25)
Button ($25.15)
SB ($24.10)
Hero ($28.40)
UTG ($44.25)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
7 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($0.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.5, SB calls $0.50.

Turn: ($1.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.5, SB calls $1.50.

River: ($4.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, SB raises to $8, Hero calls $5.

Final Pot: $20.50

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'd play it exactly the same, could we possibly check the flop as a form of pot control? I wouldn't feel at all comfortable about that. I would expect the case Ace to raise at some point with that board. Looks like A4, but I'm a station, and would make a crying call.

cha59

11-30-2007 01:56 AM

Re: $50NL, JJ Overpair OOP Getting Called Down

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

UTG ($57.90)
MP ($26.80)
CO ($48.90)
Button ($65)
jb ($52)
BB ($102.60)

Preflop: jb is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.50, 3 folds, jb raises to $2.5, 1 fold, UTG calls $2.

Flop: ($5.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
jb bets $4.25, UTG calls $4.25.

Turn: ($14) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
jb bets $11.25, UTG calls $11.25.

River: ($36.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

No stats yet on villain my only read is he waited to post and topped off his stack immediately after going through the blinds.

Is my only real choice here to check and see how he responds?

[/ QUOTE ]

What I hate about these spots is that he will only raise you with better hands, but won't call or bet the hands you beat. And could possibly bluff us off the better hand.

I think I'd chicken out and check and re-evaluate, but possibly think that a small bet on the river for value/block is the best line...small enough that he may still call with 22-77 (unlikely), and raise all those hands that beat us, but block a bluff attempt. But I hate giving that line away to a good player, which is the assumption I'm making, cuz I think a very good player could easily bluff raise us here. 44, JTdd, 67dd, and to a lesser extent, 88 and 99 seem the only hands to fit here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think youre on the right track Mike but I think a random player has a wider range than that.

John - the pot is ~ your stack and your hand is probably near the middle of his range, so I think I'd check and let him bet. I'd probably call any bet because I think you pick off bluffs and some weaker made hands (T9 TJ maybe some other stuff) often enough to be profitable. * - This is my hunch and I havent run Poker Stove with any ranges so I might change my opinion.

Slim Pickens

11-30-2007 01:16 PM

Re: $50NL, JJ Overpair OOP Getting Called Down

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

UTG ($57.90)
MP ($26.80)
CO ($48.90)
Button ($65)
jb ($52)
BB ($102.60)

Preflop: jb is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.50, 3 folds, jb raises to $2.5, 1 fold, UTG calls $2.

Flop: ($5.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
jb bets $4.25, UTG calls $4.25.

Turn: ($14) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
jb bets $11.25, UTG calls $11.25.

River: ($36.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

No stats yet on villain my only read is he waited to post and topped off his stack immediately after going through the blinds.

Is my only real choice here to check and see how he responds?

[/ QUOTE ]

grunch

I much prefer value-shoving to checking. Based on his play, I think his range is {boat/quads,mid PP that just doesn't believe you,JT,QT,QJ}. There's plenty in there that might look you up and I hate folding that river to a shove. Checking just lets the T's and mid PP's out for free but loses to either monsters or bluffs, depending on whether you c/c or c/f. I even see people call down with AK-unimproved all the way. Who knows what they think they're beating at that point.

Plus, if you're beat, you can always hit your open-ender on 6th street.

EDIT: If the river is the 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I check. That ten made a second-best hand for a decent chunk of his range. If it were just monsters, missed draws, and those stubborn PP's, my guess is you'd get more value out of checking to induce a bluff.

Slim Pickens

11-30-2007 01:48 PM

Re: STTF SNG->cash thread

[ QUOTE ]
SB is 19/15/3.8 through 310 hands and has a flop AF of 10.5

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $115.60
UTG+1: $290.50
CO: $103.40
Button: $58.45
SB: $162.50
BB: $98

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero raises to $4, 3 folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($9, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $7, SB raises to $21, Hero calls.

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($51, 2 players)
SB bets $32, Hero raises all-in $90.6

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, here are my thoughts, FWTW.

His flop raise doesn't really scare me, considering his high flop AF. He's probably noticed through those 310 hands that I'll c-bet pretty much every time and he thinks (correctly to some degree) that he has a fair amount of folding equity. Normally, I'd like to put him on a draw, but there aren't a whole lot of draws for the preflop calling range of 19/15 player. I do expect him to have something like 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] once in a very long while, but 100 BB isn't deep enough for me to really worry about it. The most likely draw is something like K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Looking back at the hand, his 3-bet % was only 3% at the time, so his range after he c/r's is something like {22-TT,K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],maybe K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],maybe AK,maybe AQs}. If that's really his range, I'm well ahead of it.

I'm not folding, so my choices are calling or raising. If I raise, it pretty much has to be a shove. He's probably calling a shove with most of his range, but some of the wacky weaker draws might get spooked and correctly fold, as well as some of the lower PP's. However, if I call his flop bet and let him continue to bet on the turn (which I see him doing most the time to follow his flop c/r save for sometimes weak hands like the mid PP's), I get the last $90 in with a huge equity edge any time the turn isn't a "club:. I probably get away from the hand on any [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] turn since I'm not really beating anything but a bluff then, and there aren't really any bluffs left in his range anyway.

The turn 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] sucks, but not enough to abort the plan. Both 44 and 33 got there and both are well in his c/r range, but so is a lot of other stuff that is now stuck to the hand and I'm beating.

EDIT: Microbet just pointed out something very important to me: the make-up of that 10.5 flop AF. All it really means is he rarely calls the flop. His actual Raise/Call/Fold distribution when facing a flop bet is 11/11/79, so he's not actually that aggro on the flop. I really should have considered folding more seriously than I did.

DevinLake

11-30-2007 03:37 PM

Re: $50NL, JJ Overpair OOP Getting Called Down

JJ hand,

I agree with slim.

There is really no value in c/c. No draws really missed but JT, and he's checking that behind a long with all other hands you beat.

So, you have to ask you self if you are willing to c/f against this particular opponent. If you think you JJ is ahead of his hand and don't want to fold the hand, shove it!

microbet

11-30-2007 05:48 PM

Re: $50NL, JJ Overpair OOP Getting Called Down

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

UTG ($57.90)
MP ($26.80)
CO ($48.90)
Button ($65)
jb ($52)
BB ($102.60)

Preflop: jb is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.50, 3 folds, jb raises to $2.5, 1 fold, UTG calls $2.

Flop: ($5.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
jb bets $4.25, UTG calls $4.25.

Turn: ($14) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
jb bets $11.25, UTG calls $11.25.

River: ($36.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

No stats yet on villain my only read is he waited to post and topped off his stack immediately after going through the blinds.

Is my only real choice here to check and see how he responds?

[/ QUOTE ]

What I hate about these spots is that he will only raise you with better hands, but won't call or bet the hands you beat. And could possibly bluff us off the better hand.

I think I'd chicken out and check and re-evaluate, but possibly think that a small bet on the river for value/block is the best line...small enough that he may still call with 22-77 (unlikely), and raise all those hands that beat us, but block a bluff attempt. But I hate giving that line away to a good player, which is the assumption I'm making, cuz I think a very good player could easily bluff raise us here. 44, JTdd, 67dd, and to a lesser extent, 88 and 99 seem the only hands to fit here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is solid and very few solid seeming players will bluff raise the river. If villain is loose enough and/or hero's image is insane like Devin then a lot of beaten hands will call a shove. If that's not the case I think villain has a pretty wide range that will call that blocking bet, but fold to a push.

edit: In some circles hero might be able to think he can push and make the villain think "He's repping exactly a full house - so it's FH or nothing - I call with 55", but I don't think these are those circles.

Jbrochu

12-01-2007 12:48 AM

Re: $50NL, JJ Overpair OOP Getting Called Down

Wow, thanks guys. All the responses to my JJ hand were great and very insightful looks into your thought processes.

fwiw here was the result:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

UTG ($57.90)
MP ($26.80)
CO ($48.90)
Button ($65)
jb ($52)
BB ($102.60)

Preflop: jb is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.50, 3 folds, jb raises to $2.5, 1 fold, UTG calls $2.

Flop: ($5.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
jb bets $4.25, UTG calls $4.25.

Turn: ($14) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
jb bets $11.25, UTG calls $11.25.

River: ($36.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
jb bets $15, UTG raises to $39.9, jb calls $19 (All-In).

Final Pot: $110.40

Results:
jb has Js Jd (two pair, jacks and fours).
UTG has 9h 9d (full house, nines full of fours).
Outcome: UTG wins $110.40.

My thought process on the hand was fairly close to Mike's thoughts in his response. I chose to bet/fold but then thought about it too long and ended up calling due to pot odds. (I know, sort of the reverse of planning a stop-and-go and then not going!)

I believe bet/fold would be a good river line if we were deeper but I think we were too shallow here. I have to do a lot more thinking about all your responses.

kleath

12-01-2007 02:32 AM

Re: $50NL, JJ Overpair OOP Getting Called Down

I suck at cash, what do I do here I got into tourney poker so I didnt ever have to fold aces?

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 4 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $53.70
BB: $96.25
UTG: $31.30
Hero (BTN): $49.30

Pre-Flop: Ahttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $2, SB folds, BB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.25) Qhttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Qhttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3, BB raises to $6, Hero calls $3

Turn: ($16.25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB bets $7.50, Hero calls $7.50

River: ($31.25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB bets $39

cha59

12-01-2007 02:40 AM

Re: $50NL, JJ Overpair OOP Getting Called Down

[ QUOTE ]
I suck at cash, what do I do here I got into tourney poker so I didnt ever have to fold aces?

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 4 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $53.70
BB: $96.25
UTG: $31.30
Hero (BTN): $49.30

Pre-Flop: Ahttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $2, SB folds, BB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.25) Qhttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Qhttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3, BB raises to $6, Hero calls $3

Turn: ($16.25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB bets $7.50, Hero calls $7.50

River: ($31.25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB bets $39

[/ QUOTE ]

Reads?

kleath

12-01-2007 03:08 AM

Re: $50NL, JJ Overpair OOP Getting Called Down

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I suck at cash, what do I do here I got into tourney poker so I didnt ever have to fold aces?

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 4 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $53.70
BB: $96.25
UTG: $31.30
Hero (BTN): $49.30

Pre-Flop: Ahttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $2, SB folds, BB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.25) Qhttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Qhttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3, BB raises to $6, Hero calls $3

Turn: ($16.25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB bets $7.50, Hero calls $7.50

River: ($31.25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB bets $39

[/ QUOTE ]

Reads?

[/ QUOTE ]

none really, didnt see him really do anything to this point, havent been on the table long.

futuredoc85

12-01-2007 07:36 AM

Re: $50NL, JJ Overpair OOP Getting Called Down

AMT	12-01-2007 12:06 PM

Re: $50NL, JJ Overpair OOP Getting Called Down

kleath,

looks look a river fold to me, as gross as it is. listen to futuredoc.

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