Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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are you now doing this to programmers too?

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LOL. He's happy there's someone like you who works for free (or good feeling). If you mean that's exploitation then yes, he's exploiting you [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

as of that multitabling) he's one-tabler and he doesn't like multitablers. It's like a fisherman who has his stick and chair and don't like that big fishing vessels.

I don't think anybody takes seriously that multitablers slow down games (although I sometimes does when happens something outside of the poker itself).

The real problem is multitablers drain the pond faster. If you do also you don't have to care. But if you don't then it's an advantage of others.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you seriously contending that people whom on average *take less than one second* to act actually "slow" the games????

I am saying they take a hell of a lot longer than 1 sec

or as you say "it is fun to tweak them a bit" - are you now doing this to programmers too?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I am tweaking the nit grinders who hate the idea that something other than Party 2004 will show up on the legalized scene.

Tuff << currently 4th from bottom in chips in the trout tournament

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

tuff your ranting in this thread is epic, I can only imagine with an open minded protagonist like yourself running this horse and pony show, this site will the one of the biggest success stories since PartyBackGammon

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

ffs, quit talking about this idea and do it already. The sooner you get this done, the sooner you fail and fall flat on your face. If you seriously think a lot of people will stop playing at trusted sites to play at some unknown "home game site", you are truly moronic. Just face it. You are not a good poker player. You can limit play to one table, or many. You can allow huds or not. No matter what measures you take, you will never beat the game. A lot of people will never beat the game. Quit making excuses for your lack of talent, man up, and get over it because very few people really care. Your 15 minutes are up

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]
ffs, quit talking about this idea and do it already. The sooner you get this done, the sooner you fail and fall flat on your face. If you seriously think a lot of people will stop playing at trusted sites to play at some unknown "home game site", you are truly moronic. Just face it. You are not a good poker player. You can limit play to one table, or many. You can allow huds or not. No matter what measures you take, you will never beat the game. A lot of people will never beat the game. Quit making excuses for your lack of talent, man up, and get over it because very few people really care. Your 15 minutes are up

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Ya it's failed before and will fail again.

It's like a hotel offering rooms at 15.00 a night but it's roach infested and there is no staff.

A rakefree site can't work because there is no revenue nor players. People would rather pay the premium to play at a decent site with good service.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ffs, quit talking about this idea and do it already. The sooner you get this done, the sooner you fail and fall flat on your face. If you seriously think a lot of people will stop playing at trusted sites to play at some unknown "home game site", you are truly moronic. Just face it. You are not a good poker player. You can limit play to one table, or many. You can allow huds or not. No matter what measures you take, you will never beat the game. A lot of people will never beat the game. Quit making excuses for your lack of talent, man up, and get over it because very few people really care. Your 15 minutes are up

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya it's failed before and will fail again.

It's like a hotel offering rooms at 15.00 a night but it's roach infested and there is no staff.

A rakefree site can't work because there is no revenue nor players. People would rather pay the premium to play at a decent site with good service.

[/ QUOTE ]

Naah. The idea at its core isn't bad. I don't know whether the technical, security, logistical, and payment issues could be overcome, but I do know that all the rake we pay ought to be solid incentive for it to be thoroughly explored by enthusiasts with more programming and network saavy than me. I just don't think Tuff is up to the job.

And he's not even really serious. In the end, if someone created a platform to accomplish free poker rooms, but they allowed multi-tabling, he would still be howling at the wind.

But give credit where credit is due. Free internet poker is a beautiful dream, and his "performance" in the "Bad Day" recording is so funny. In fact, I'm going to put it on my favorites, and play it after every bad beat to keep the right frame of mind.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

Does one get a tax break for investing in a business operated by a retard?

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

lol @ single tabling

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

What is your worst nightmare?

Not an inability to multitable, but the absence of fish on your current "24 tables allowed" sites. (actually you are mostly playing against each other now anyway)

Where have all the fishies gone?

They will all be gone in due course.

XPOSTED FROM THE SOFTWARE FORUM

I think you are thinking quite correctly on this. The purchasers of the server software could subscribe to an independant 3rd party security service which would receive every hand and use algorythms to check for bad patterns. Also, they could look at any hand history which was brought to their attention.


Since, by definition, the site is honest, it is YOUR site, the only threat to overall honesty is strangers coming in and colluding. It is my belief that colluders leave pretty fair sized footprints. I am not an expert though.

If I have missed something, let em know.

So far I believe this is where we stand.

The software program itself. Being looked at. (by a number of people I assume) It is unclear if a solid poker site program can come from the open source. We will know in due course. There is no doubt that such software can be obtained, but at what cost?

Site software security. This is 99.9% solved, believe it.

Security against outside colluders and cheats. I think the 3rd party security group is a good approach. One company could serve many "homegame" sites.

Payment processing. Right now, I can only see some sort of situation where a trusted 3rd party does the banking. This can be as simple as the homesite operators wife.

"Hello Molly? This is Ralph. Have Mike put $100 bucks into my play money account. The check is on it's way. Thanks"

"Hello Molly? My play money account is up to $290. You can check it with Mike to be sure. Can you have him take $200 out of my play money account. My son will stop over a bit later around 3 or so and pick up $200 cash. Yep, it is the wife's birthday. You know how that goes. Thanks"

That model works for the small homegame network. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am thinking this is similar to how the underground home games operate.



You all might think of upping your table limit to 36. Time is growing short.

Tuff

You guys can disparage my poker ability all you want. It is not going to change the fact that the online poker environment is going to change radically, and relatively soon. Whether that change is to the good or bad will depend on your point of view. If the FoF bunch prevails, we will have no problems. There will be no online poker except for the most hardcore willing to jump through incredible hoops.

TF

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

"There will be no online poker except for the most hardcore willing to jump through incredible hoops."

lol how can any1 support this guy? ^^^^

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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No, I am tweaking the nit grinders who hate the idea that something other than Party 2004 will show up on the legalized scene.

[/ QUOTE ]

So now the tone of this thread has gone to "hey, guys, I have a great idea, want to help me out with it" to "ha ha, all you nit grinders are sure gonna be sorry when my no-rake one-tabling site is taking over the market!" Great.

You're a great guy Tuff, and the community could really use more people with the kind of drive and love for poker that you have in the fight to get online poker legalized. It's really too bad that your efforts have to be so misguided and vindictive against people who are, for whatever reason, more successful at poker than you are; that exact reason (that you really aren't looking after the best interests of the poker community as a whole, but rather what you want to see in a poker site) is why these efforts are ultimately going to fail.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

I'm gonna throw some fuel on the fire here: If you want a single-tabling fish-fest you can try out PKR. They have flashy graphics and the 3d engine makes it impossible to multi-table. I haven't played on it for ages so I'm not sure what the real-money games are like but there you go.

This thread makes me lol.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

tuff, you are an idiot, and here's why.

there's a reason why i would never want to just play 1 table over 16 tabling on ftp. the most i could make is prob 16/hour at 1/2 1 tabling. right now with rakeback i am clearing $150/hour 16 tabling at lowly 200nl stakes.

you are wrong about the fish pond disappearing. the games got worse for a bit after uigea, but the games are MUCH better now. i played 100s of thousands of hands both before and after uigea and i know the state of the game as good as or better than anyone. ftp is FULL of fish. stars has always been a tougher site, but the fact is fish are coming back.

in addition, the games have changed. that is the logical progression in poker. as people become more and more exposed to poker, the games change. they will NEVER be the same as party 2004, however now there are exploitable tagfish in the place of the true donkeys.

my point is the games are fine. i am still crushing the games like i did before because i adapted.

as dave said, you are killing your own idea because of this stupid crusade of yours. you are being completely biased in your explanation of why multitabling is supposedly killing the games. i would NEVER play on a site you controlled precisely because of this bias. you can't be trusted to make impartial decisions, you obviously make decisions based on what YOU want, not on whats best for the games. NEWSFLASH: what you want is NOT necessarily best for the games.

the games will never die. there was a time when i thought they would, but then i realized that most americans love to gamble, and most americans are lazy beyond belief. that means that there will continually be new money and people that will not make the effort to become any good at poker. i will continue to exploit the tagfish that don't adjust to me.

what really pisses me off is how you're trolling throughout this thread. your idea has a close to zero chance of taking off because people who have money to create this won't do something dumb like you're suggesting. they will do what makes them the most money, yet you're acting like you are assuredly going to have authority to shut down multitabling in the US.

i have defended you in the past for people going after you, i have done that multiple times saying that you are just saying what you believe in and don't deserve any of it. however, you have gone from a passionate ambassador to a vindictive person trying your best to get a rise out of 2+2 multitablers. this is pretty crappy of you.

go play live man. online just isn't for you.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

Nation,

If you are are killing the games, then you should have little interest in things changing. If you are correct and the games are still good, go for it, and best of luck.

My interest is in getting a game going of a different sort. I see that most posters here don't subscribe to my ideas. And, if they are doing well, as you are, they they should hope that things stay the same.

And there is little to be gained from continuing this discussion.

Someday, there will probably be several US located sites. Some may be real fishy and allow only one table. Some may be fishy and allow several tables. Some may not be fishy at all for whatever reason.

I hope that in the not too distant future we get to see what model does the best in an open and free market.

If I get my model going, I will do my best to see that it serves the rec player well. If that means limiting play at the site to a single table, so be it. You will be welcome to drop by or to take a pass.

I cannot imagine that there will only be a single site for online poker. (well, I can imagine it, but I doubt that such will be the case.) There will be sites to serve you, and sites to serve me.

Ultimately, the sites that has the best plan will win out. I believe it will be sites that follow my ideas of catering to the rec player. You all believe otherwise.

We will know the answer when it all plays out.

Have a nice Holiday weekend.

Tuff

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

tuff,

the post you just made was the most intelligent one you made in this entire thread. i kept waiting for the part in this entire thread where you would just say, "hey, it's just a site for the casual player. it's not designed for pros and because of the 1 table rule, will be perfect for casual poker."

instead, you turned this into a crusade about how multitabling is ruining poker, and how the whole thing will be done, and the only solution is to stop multitabling. that's 1. not true and 2. seemed like the intention was to piss off the serious players here.

if you want my opinion on your now clarified idea, then yes, i agree that it's a good idea for guys like you who don't want to play seriously. i don't think it's a viable business plan though just because i don't see you getting any sort of funding without big profits. i don't see you getting those big profits without allowing multitabling.

so yea, your idea is cool, but you need to quit bashing people who multitable because it's a personal agenda and is getting in the way of your decent ideas.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

Here is the post I should have made in the first place.

I anticipated a bunch of crap from you guys about the single table, and, in the process of preemptively giving you crap back, precipitated the ongoing disagreement.

------------------------------------------


I have my perfect poker site in mind. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

This would be a totally legal US site with freely available funding, via debit card and other means, to all poker players. Winnings may be withdrawn by a timely US bank check taking a couple of days [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] instead of a couple of weeks (or months [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]).

All poker players are welcome and pay absolutely nothing, ever, to play. There is no rake of any kind, ever. (This is the key to it being legal, just like home games almost everywhere.)

The site would be vetted by the finest US accounting and auditing firms to be found. Players must be 21 and will be positively identified prior to being allowed to play.

The site will be well advertised. How many players do you suppose there would be at the tables?

Sorry, only one table per player. The model does not work otherwise. You will be free to play many tables at PokerStars or Full Tilt and one table here. No problem at all, there will be a reasonable clock put on you and we move on.

It is not adverstisement supported or a membership site. How the site works will be made known in due time. It is not important for this discussion. (I know you are curious, but patience please)

Interested?

Cheaters and colluders will be shot, survivors will be shot again. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Screen name changes allowed at will.

Who is in on these terms?

Anyone really excited? (Besides me)

-------------------------------------------

I believe this as an original post would have produced a more fruitful discussion.

My apologies,

Tuff

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

a) Tuff, I suspect part of your motivation is based on trying to prove you'd be a winning player if not for those meddling multitabler "nits".

b) I would check the site out if it opens and play it if it is soft.

c) The likelihood of it being opened is extremely low.

d) 1 table is retarded, many fish want to play 2 to 4.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

One aspect I think tuff_fish has overlooked is that really how do the fish find your site?

There is a reason they are fish. Many dont know what rake is beyond the site takes a little, they dont know the bb/100 of it, they essentially decide where to play based on the feedback of their friends at homegames/livegames and TV advertising.

Your site would have to compete vs the full tilt PAD/HSP brand and the pokerstars wsop brand.

To be blunt, it sounds like a nice idea but:

even fish like to play 2-3 tables
you cant compete to get the fish there anyway.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]
a) Tuff, I suspect part of your motivation is based on trying to prove you'd be a winning player if not for those meddling multitabler "nits".

b) I would check the site out if it opens and play it if it is soft.

c) The likelihood of it being opened is extremely low.

d) 1 table is retarded, many fish want to play 2 to 4.
.
.
.
.

One aspect I think tuff_fish has overlooked is that really how do the fish find your site?

There is a reason they are fish. Many dont know what rake is beyond the site takes a little, they dont know the bb/100 of it, they essentially decide where to play based on the feedback of their friends at homegames/livegames and TV advertising.

Your site would have to compete vs the full tilt PAD/HSP brand and the pokerstars wsop brand.

To be blunt, it sounds like a nice idea but:

even fish like to play 2-3 tables
you cant compete to get the fish there anyway.



[/ QUOTE ]

I believe this as an original post would have produced a more fruitful discussion.

Or not...

Tuff

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

IF tables will be deepstacked (min - 100-200bb and max 1000bb)
I Would live there, im sick of shortstacking hit n runners