Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

I know this doesn't make much sense in grand scheme of things but I think for the sake of the rivalry it would have been so great if Michigan had won today.

Carry an "incompetent" coach off into the sunset on their shoulders after he somehow "willed" his team to a win over a vastly superior team.

Also, I was hoping Mallett would play more than one [censored] series. When even Herbie and Brent are picking up on the fact that Mallett is bringing life to the offense a change is definitely in order, no?

[/drunk rant]

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

[ QUOTE ]
LOL. I've lived in Big 12 country for 5 years, he's one of the biggest chokers I've ever seen. He can pull off the occasional upset against a good team but thats about it. LLLLLLoyd was at least fairly consistent . He's 1 game below .500 against Ohio State. Yet you think it can't get worse?

[/ QUOTE ]
It cracks me up that OSU fans are suddenly bringing up Lloyd's whole career to support a point when all they've been saying lately is how badly he sucks because he can't beat Tressel. Everyone's biggest complaint about Carr is his refusal to modernize. What worked for him so well in the 90's simply does not anymore. You really want Michigan having a coach running a modern offense? If that's what you want, I'll take it.

That said, next year is looking ugly. I will give you that without argument.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I was hoping Mallett would play more than one [censored] series. When even Herbie and Brent are picking up on the fact that Mallett is bringing life to the offense a change is definitely in order, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, Mallett is *awful*. Like, thoroughly, throw the ball all over the field in any direction except where the receivers are supposed to be awful. He has a great arm...and that's pretty much all I've seen from him all year. The guy broke 50% completions in two games this year, 11 for 20 vs. Minnesota (lol) and 16 for 29 against Penn State. Yes, he's a freshman QB, and yes, I know Henne had Edwards, but Manningham/Arrington are both good upperclassmen college WR's (Manningham is already a first day pick) and he's done very little with either of them.

Next year is gonna be very ugly for reasons having nothing to do with our receiving corps. There's no shortage of 6'2" receivers who can catch passes on the roster (Greg Mathews is probably the goto guy next year and he's not bad), but I'm terrified of Mallett being #1 for a year. Either he's twice as good as this year or we're 7-5.

---

Miles might not be a savior, but he can't possibly coach worse than Carr on gameday. We already know he's no Charlie Weis, so that alone ranks him as an upgrade over Carr. Regardless, the way our luck is running, LSU will win the NC and Miles will stay, which means we'll wind up with Ron English and another five years of guaranteed mediocrity. Woohoo.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dude, Mallett is *awful*. Like, thoroughly, throw the ball all over the field in any direction except where the receivers are supposed to be awful. He has a great arm...and that's pretty much all I've seen from him all year. The guy broke 50% completions in two games this year, 11 for 20 vs. Minnesota (lol) and 16 for 29 against Penn State. Yes, he's a freshman QB, and yes, I know Henne had Edwards, but Manningham/Arrington are both good upperclassmen college WR's (Manningham is already a first day pick) and he's done very little with either of them.


[/ QUOTE ]

Mallett scares me, too. Combine his problems with accuracy, with a cocky attitude, and next year could be ugly. And keep it mind we have no other viable options at QB. If Mallett doesn't improve, we are sunk.

Remember when we had back up QB's like Tom Brady and Drew Henson? Now we have Dave Cone.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hate my life for the next 365 days.

[/ QUOTE ]

I LIVE IN COLUMBUS. [censored]

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

Mallett will be fine. Successful true freshman QB's are very few and very far between at any school. They threw him into the fire this season and they probably got more or less what they expected. This is all part of the learning process for most kids who come out of HS with a huge arm and big stats. Usually they learn it on the practice field. As much as I hate ND, look at Jimmy Clausen.

Don't get me wrong, I did not want to see him on the field today. Especially after last week. But you should expect big things from this kid, starting next year. I'm as concerned about next year as anyone, but at some point that kid's arm along with a little moxie gained from his PT this season will win a game or two for us and you'll catch a glimpse of the light at the end of the tunnel.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

YOU GUYS DO REALIZE THAT MALLETT GOT THE ONLY FIRST DOWN OF THE SECOND HALF RIGHT?

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

Also, I bring back up the wild scenario from Week 1.

What if App St QB Armanti Edwards transfers to Michigan? Why not hire our own "Juice"?

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Miles might not be a savior, but he can't possibly coach worse than Carr on gameday.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I don't think there are a whole lot of Michigan fans who think Miles is the savior. But I think most everyone agrees it's time for Lloyd to go.

I don't understand the "lolz oh boy, you're losing legendary and talented coach Lloyd Carr and bringing in Miles, now you guys are doomed!!11!!!! lolz!!" Buckeye fan narrative. I mean, c'mom, despite what TomCollins says, there's no one who can claim with a straight face that Lloyd --> Miles is a serious downgrade. It's especially disingenuous because OSU fans have rightfully recognized Lloyd's mediocrity for years now.

And again, as I've said in other threads, I think Michigan fans are excited for Miles because it's hard to get excited about any of the other oft-named candidates. If your choices are Mike DeBord, Kirk Ferentz, or Les Miles, then frankly, Les Miles starts to look pretty good in comparison.

It's Michigan. We're going to do something incestuous. We're probably not going to drive a Saban-sized pile of money to Bob Stoops's or Steve Spurrier's or Bill Cowher's doorstep and come beg them to coach for us. Chances are good that we're going to bring in someone who coached or played under Bo/Lloyd (in other words, DeBord/Miles/Tragovac/English), or someone who the administrators know and like and have hired before (Ferentz). I wish the Michigan AD was different, but chances are pretty good the list of potential coaches are limited to someone In The Family. That's not a very big list, and alot of the names on it are already proven failures (DeBord, who ran Central Michigan into the ground as HC) or have absolutely no track record (Tragovac/English). I fully concede that Miles may be a total moron, but unless Michigan does something completely unexpected, he's our best option.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

For Michigan fans who think that they can't do worse than Carr, I thought I'd mention Earle Bruce (good ol' 9-3 Earl) and the wonderful John Cooper that replaced him.

Be careful what you ask for.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Miles might not be a savior, but he can't possibly coach worse than Carr on gameday.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I don't think there are a whole lot of Michigan fans who think Miles is the savior. But I think most everyone agrees it's time for Lloyd to go.

I don't understand the "lolz oh boy, you're losing legendary coach Lloyd Carr and bringing in Miles, now you guys are doomed!!11!!!! lolz!!" Buckeye fan narrative. I mean, c'mom, despite what TomCollins says, there's no one who can claim with a straight face that Lloyd --> Miles is a serious downgrade.

And again, as I've said in other threads, I think Michigan fans are excited for Miles because it's hard to get excited about any of the other oft-named candidates. If your choices are Mike DeBord, Kirk Ferentz, or Les Miles, then frankly, Les Miles starts to look pretty good in comparison.

It's Michigan. We're going to do something incestuous. We're probably not going to drive a Saban-sized pile of money to Bob Stoops's or Steve Spurrier's or Bill Cowher's doorstep and come beg them to coach for us. Chances are good that we're going to bring in someone who coached or played under Bo/Lloyd (in other words, DeBord/Miles/Tragovac/English), or someone who the administrators know and like and have hired before (Ferentz). I wish the Michigan AD was different, but chances are pretty good the list of potential coaches are limited to someone In The Family. That's not a very big list, and alot of the names on it are already proven failures (DeBord, who ran Central Michigan into the ground as HC) or have absolutely no track record (Tragovac/English). I fully concede that Miles may be a total moron, but unless Michigan does something completely unexpected, he's our best option.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. And I don't QFT often. Stole my thoughts exactly.

ANY chance we keep English as our DC?

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

i pretty much agree with the mich fans in this thread, minus the "f osu" stuff.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

I don't get the whole "Miles is a total idiot" narrative. His in game decisions are occasionally batshit crazy. But he has an aggressiveness that UM might need. He is not, imo, a very good game manager, but he is lightyears beyond some idiots.

Remember 2005? A rather large hurricane hit south LA. I remember it well -- I attended LSU at the time. The whole area was disrupted. May on the team were personally affected. JaMarcus Russell famously had his family staying in his apartment in Baton Rouge. We went 11-2 that year, finishing off by beating the stuffing out of Miami.

In game, Miles is overaggressive, often suboptimal. But there is more to being a good coach than game management. Miles knows how to put a team together, and is a hell of a good recruiter. UM could do much worse. So could LSU. I will not be thrilled to see him go. But if he does, I will wish him all the best at UM. He has kept up a level of excellence at LSU, and I will always appreciate it.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

I don't think any of the Buckeyes here thinks that Carr is anything more than a mediocre coach. He's not good, but he's not godawful. However, I don't think any of you understand how bad Miles is.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Be careful what you ask for.

[/ QUOTE ]

YA RLY

I'M GOING TO MISS THESE WONDERFUL LLOYD MOMENTS

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1385/...78f4b0d92b.jpg

zomg one of my favorites

holy s&*! remember the day we put up 90 yards of offense against Ohio St. Me too, banner day for Lloyd

Or remember the time Michigan fans had to go scrape up Morgan Trent and Stevie Brown and Johnny Sears torched corpses after Dennis Dixon threw touchdown after touchdown against our 3 deep coverage back in September? That was pretty remarkable, given that monumental effort given to pick up their ashes after USC burnt them up in Pasadena a couple of months earlier using pretty much the same playbook that we still haven't figured out how to stop (as the spread offense doesn't exist in Lloyd's 1957 copy of Bud Wilkenson's "How To Play Defense in Intercollegiate Tackle Football", we haven't figured out quite what all those receivers are for or why we should bother covering them).

I'm going to miss Lloyd "knute rockne" Carr too. Little did I know OSU fans thought so highly of Lloyd's coaching talent. Clearly today's 90 yard performance made them rethink their previous disrespect and realize what a magician that guy was.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

[ QUOTE ]
... I don't think any of you understand how bad Miles is.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, the LSU program has totally fallen apart since Saban left... oh wait.

EDIT: Though to be fair, he did really fcku up OK State... oh wait.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
... I don't think any of you understand how bad Miles is.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, the LSU program has totally fallen apart since Saban left... oh wait.

EDIT: Though to be fair, he did really fcku up OK State... oh wait.

[/ QUOTE ]

With as much talent as LSU has, you could have a donkey as a coach and get the same results. Ok State- lol, a real success story. He takes a team from awful to mediocre. Congrats. I can remember lots of games where they managed to blow like 21 point leads in the 4th quarter. To be honest, Miles probably has a better chance at beating Ohio State as Carr has done lately, but expect more losses to Northwestern and Eastern Michigan.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
... I don't think any of you understand how bad Miles is.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, the LSU program has totally fallen apart since Saban left... oh wait.

EDIT: Though to be fair, he did really fcku up OK State... oh wait.

[/ QUOTE ]

With as much talent as LSU has, you could have a donkey as a coach and get the same results. Ok State- lol, a real success story. He takes a team from awful to mediocre. Congrats. I can remember lots of games where they managed to blow like 21 point leads in the 4th quarter. To be honest, Miles probably has a better chance at beating Ohio State as Carr has done lately, but expect more losses to Northwestern and Eastern Michigan.

[/ QUOTE ]
2005. Two hurricanes hit LA. The teams is completely disrupted.

How did we do that year?

He took OK State from really bad to pretty good.

He is not winning because of Saban's recruits. He is winning because of Miles' recruits.

As I have stated, he is not a good game manager. But there are WAY worse out there.

He can recruit.

************************************************** ***
Bottom line TC: Do bad coaches harm good programs, and fail to improve bad ones? This is a simple yes or no question.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

Henne's career looks to be a massive disappointment. It is not good that the last two quarterbacks for Michigan essentially never improved after promising first seasons.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

He took Okie State from crap to 3rd, 3rd, and 5th in the Big 12 South. That's pretty good? I guess if Michigan fans are content with being in the top half of the Big 10 (most times), so be it.

He can definitely recruit well. So can Carr. I don't think any Michigan fans would argue with that. He is a choker and an underachiever. He is a fool as well. He is lucky he is running well with his idiotic decisions. Think of him as someone with a huge chip stack who gets all in with a weaker hand over and over. If he runs well, he's going to win anyway. I agree he's not the worst out there. But the same is true of Carr. He's probably better than 75% of coaches out there. I just don't think Michigan fans are content with that. I wasn't with Cooper.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

[ QUOTE ]
He took Okie State from crap to 3rd, 3rd, and 5th in the Big 12 South. That's pretty good? I guess if Michigan fans are content with being in the top half of the Big 10 (most times), so be it.

He can definitely recruit well. So can Carr. I don't think any Michigan fans would argue with that. He is a choker and an underachiever. He is a fool as well. He is lucky he is running well with his idiotic decisions. Think of him as someone with a huge chip stack who gets all in with a weaker hand over and over. If he runs well, he's going to win anyway. I agree he's not the worst out there. But the same is true of Carr. He's probably better than 75% of coaches out there. I just don't think Michigan fans are content with that. I wasn't with Cooper.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

[ QUOTE ]
With as much talent as LSU has, you could have a donkey as a coach and get the same results. Ok State- lol, a real success story. He takes a team from awful to mediocre. Congrats. I can remember lots of games where they managed to blow like 21 point leads in the 4th quarter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Name more than one, please. TBH, I have no idea how many there were but it is obviously more than likely ZERO. I would however be more than willing to set the blind O/U at one vs. the typical "Hey you suck!!" classy OSU fan.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

This is the greatest rivalry in sports. Time and time again, the big ten is decided on this game, and while that may not be as big a deal as it was 3+ yrs ago, it is still huge. GL UM, get well soon, the rivalry needs it. Also, to whomever calleda buckeye fans a bunch of hicks, clearly you have never been to Columbus.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

Yeah, I was wrong about the 4th quarter thing. But here is a good example-

2004 vs. Texas. Okie State up 35-7 just before halftime.
Final score? Texas 56, Okie State 35.

I was confused about the other times Texas came back- Les Miles was gone by then.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

Well, while Columbus is a pretty decent city most Buckeye fans are indeed hicks.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I was wrong about the 4th quarter thing. But here is a good example-

2004 vs. Texas. Okie State up 35-7 just before halftime.
Final score? Texas 56, Okie State 35.

I was confused about the other times Texas came back- Les Miles was gone by then.

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember this game. Guy who won the game for Texas was this fella whose name escapes me, Vince something...

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I was wrong about the 4th quarter thing. But here is a good example-

2004 vs. Texas. Okie State up 35-7 just before halftime.
Final score? Texas 56, Okie State 35.

I was confused about the other times Texas came back- Les Miles was gone by then.

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember this game. Guy who won the game for Texas was this fella whose name escapes me, Vince something...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, they didn't even send out a defense or even 10 other players. He snapped the ball to himself, then he threw it, knocked over every opponent, caught it, then tackled himself since he was so amazing.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

Post game quote from Michigan AD Bill Martin: "If I had to replace Lloyd, I want to clone him. That's the bottom line. If we have to move on, well, I'm going to make certain that whoever we bring in is somebody that can sustain the record that Lloyd has."

Our AD wants the next coach to be a Lloyd Carr "clone." Goodbye everyone. I am going to put a bullet in my head.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Post game quote from Michigan AD Bill Martin: "If I had to replace Lloyd, I want to clone him. That's the bottom line. If we have to move on, well, I'm going to make certain that whoever we bring in is somebody that can sustain the record that Lloyd has."

Our AD wants the next coach to be a Lloyd Carr "clone." Goodbye everyone. I am going to put a bullet in my head.

[/ QUOTE ]
Funny. I lul'ed

But really -- don't read too much into this. It's just an AD expressing public support for his coach in the strongest possible terms. I'd be surprised if he feels this way privately.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Post game quote from Michigan AD Bill Martin: "If I had to replace Lloyd, I want to clone him. That's the bottom line. If we have to move on, well, I'm going to make certain that whoever we bring in is somebody that can sustain the record that Lloyd has."

Our AD wants the next coach to be a Lloyd Carr "clone." Goodbye everyone. I am going to put a bullet in my head.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, he may just be saying that to be nice since he knows he's gone.

And in terms of running a clean program I agree.

If Les really did bad-mouth Michigan during recruiting, I could see Martin blackballing him. The problem is the list of competent "Michigan Men" is limited.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

[ QUOTE ]
And in terms of running a clean program I agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lloyd gets a lot of credit for "running a clean program". And I suppose from the standpoint of "attracting attention from the NCAA", yes, Lloyd was always squeaky clean.

But consider that our starting TE (who took what, 4 holding penalties today?) beat up a kid (so badly that said kid needed to be hospitalized) because the kid made fun of him in class. Except Butler, in all his brilliance, actually beat the wrong kid: it was discovered later the kid he beat up wasn't actually the kid who was giving him [censored] in class.

The only reason Butler isn't in jail right now is because the kid dropped the charges. No one disputed Butler's role in the incident or the facts of the case.

Why was Carson Butler allowed back on the team this fall? If Lloyd is so squeaky clean, why were out-and-out thugs like Butler allowed to play?

Last year, news of Adrian Arrington arrest came right before the Iowa game last year in late October (incident involved his girlfriend and potential drunken abuse). But because Manningham was hurt, and we were undefeated and playing a big game, Lloyd didn't take any disciplinary action against Arrington and let him play against Iowa. In fact, IIRC, no one in the Michigan program made any mention of the arrest whatsoever (arrest was in early October), yet it's almost certain that Lloyd et al knew -- no, none of them commented on it until it became public knowledge via the news media two weeks later prior to the Iowa game. Again, the charges against Arrington were eventually dropped, but the way Lloyd handled the whole affair sure doesn't strike me as "clean".

I don't want to bash Lloyd. Every program has this kind of stuff going on, and surely, much worse. But let's not pat Lloyd on the back for the tight ship he ran, because for the last few years (at least), it certainly hasn't been true. His teams grew consistently more and more undisciplined off the field during his tenure, and Lloyd became more and more willing to look the other way when he felt like he needed to.

In addition to the off-the-field stuff, prima-donnas like Manningham openly skulked on the field when they weren't getting the ball, a true-freshman (Mallet) argued with coaches on the sidelines during games, Butler was consistently penalized for obvious and unnecessary holding penalties all year long. I don't think this team was 'undisciplined' on the field, and I don't put a whole lot of stock into things like "attitude", but if we're going to talk about what kind of ethics a coach runs a program with, then "behavior on and off the field" should be part of that conversation, even if the results of the game aren't effected. I'm not attributing the mediocrity of the 2007 Michigan team to a lack of discipline or a poor attitude. But if going to judge Lloyd by the standard of "the behavior and attitude of his players on and off the field", let's do it honestly. This team has it's fair share of thugs like Butler, and 'questionable attitude' guys like Manningham. Even Hart, who everybody (including me) loves and respects -- even he talked a lot of [censored] to the media about former alums like Harbaugh and some of our opponents like Michigan State.

Again, this doesn't bother me personally -- I even appreciated what Hart did in calling out Harbaugh -- but seeing that kind of behavior from players shouldn't elicit "boy, that coach sure runs a tight ship!" type comments. And I always hear about how "clean of a program" Lloyd ran. And I think there's some truth to that. But I think some of those comments are a case of unfounded back-patting from Lloyd apologists, looking to excuse alot of his teams' poor-on-the-field performance: "oh yeah, sure, I guess the team was woefully unprepared for a I-AA opponent, but Lloyd runs a clean program, and that's what matters!"; IMO, the last few years introduced a lot of legitimate questions about just how 'cleanly' Lloyd was running the program. Again, I'm not claiming Lloyd violated NCAA rules and that Michigan was doing anything SMU-like. Far from it. But I do think Lloyd's last few seasons were a a case of a guy who frequently lost control of his teams and his players conduct off-the-field, and when that happened, he was willing to look the way other way if he had to.

I'm not saying I would have handled things any differently than Carr did, or that I would want a Michigan coach to handle things different than Carr. I think you could make a case for tolerating Manningham's drama because of his talent, and letting Butler back on the team because the charges were dropped (and TE depth was so bad), and letting Arrington play against Iowa because it was a big game, we needed him, and the case was highly questionable to begin with. But let's not laud Lloyd for all his wonderful discipline and his clean program. He was completely willing to let his players do a bunch of questionable [censored] off the field, only to have them out there on the field on Saturday if we needed them.

And honestly, I'm *fine* with that. But I'm not going to turn around and then claim Lloyd was so squeaky clean in the process. AFAIK, he was generally an honorable guy with his recruits/was an 'ethical' recruiter, and he never aroused any suspicion from the NCAA (or anyone else) because of how his team was run from an NCAA rules/regs standpoint, and how he recruited high school kids, and how the boosters/recruits/players on the team interacted, etc. And that's all good. He's not Bobby Bowden or anything like that. But his record wasn't perfect if you look outside of the scope of NCAA rules and regulations and into other variables like "off-field behavior of players" and "attitude of players during games".

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And in terms of running a clean program I agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lloyd gets a lot of credit for "running a clean program". And I suppose from the standpoint of "attracting attention from the NCAA", yes, Lloyd was always squeaky clean.

But consider that our starting TE (who took what, 4 holding penalties today?) beat up a kid (so badly that said kid needed to be hospitalized) because the kid made fun of him in class. Except Butler, in all his brilliance, actually beat the wrong kid: it was discovered later the kid he beat up wasn't actually the kid who was giving him [censored] in class.

The only reason Butler isn't in jail right now is because the kid dropped the charges. No one disputed Butler's role in the incident or the facts of the case.

Why was Carson Butler allowed back on the team this fall? If Lloyd is so squeaky clean, why were out-and-out thugs like Butler allowed to play?

Last year, news of Adrian Arrington arrest came right before the Iowa game last year in late October (incident involved his girlfriend and potential drunken abuse). But because Manningham was hurt, and we were undefeated and playing a big game, Lloyd didn't take any disciplinary action against Arrington and let him play against Iowa. In fact, IIRC, no one in the Michigan program made any mention of the arrest whatsoever (arrest was in early October), yet it's almost certain that Lloyd et al knew -- no, none of them commented on it until it became public knowledge via the news media two weeks later prior to the Iowa game. Again, the charges against Arrington were eventually dropped, but the way Lloyd handled the whole affair sure doesn't strike me as "clean".

I don't want to bash Lloyd. Every program has this kind of stuff going on, and surely, much worse. But let's not pat Lloyd on the back for the tight ship he ran, because for the last few years (at least), it certainly hasn't been true. His teams grew consistently more and more undisciplined off the field during his tenure, and Lloyd became more and more willing to look the other way when he felt like he needed to.

In addition to the off-the-field stuff, prima-donnas like Manningham openly skulked on the field when they weren't getting the ball, a true-freshman (Mallet) argued with coaches on the sidelines during games, Butler was consistently penalized for obvious and unnecessary holding penalties all year long. I don't think this team was 'undisciplined' on the field, and I don't put a whole lot of stock into things like "attitude", but if we're going to talk about what kind of ethics a coach runs a program with, then "behavior on and off the field" should be part of that conversation, even if the results of the game aren't effected. I'm not attributing the mediocrity of the 2007 Michigan team to a lack of discipline or a poor attitude. But if going to judge Lloyd by the standard of "the behavior and attitude of his players on and off the field", let's do it honestly. This team has it's fair share of thugs like Butler, and 'questionable attitude' guys like Manningham. Even Hart, who everybody (including me) loves and respects -- even he talked a lot of [censored] to the media about former alums like Harbaugh and some of our opponents like Michigan State.

Again, this doesn't bother me personally -- I even appreciated what Hart did in calling out Harbaugh -- but seeing that kind of behavior from players shouldn't elicit "boy, that coach sure runs a tight ship!" type comments. And I always hear about how "clean of a program" Lloyd ran. And I think there's some truth to that. But I think some of those comments are a case of unfounded back-patting from Lloyd apologists, looking to excuse alot of his teams' poor-on-the-field performance: "oh yeah, sure, I guess the team was woefully unprepared for a I-AA opponent, but Lloyd runs a clean program, and that's what matters!"; IMO, the last few years introduced a lot of legitimate questions about just how 'cleanly' Lloyd was running the program. Again, I'm not claiming Lloyd violated NCAA rules and that Michigan was doing anything SMU-like. Far from it. But I do think Lloyd's last few seasons were a a case of a guy who frequently lost control of his teams and his players conduct off-the-field, and when that happened, he was willing to look the way other way if he had to.

I'm not saying I would have handled things any differently than Carr did, or that I would want a Michigan coach to handle things different than Carr. I think you could make a case for tolerating Manningham's drama because of his talent, and letting Butler back on the team because the charges were dropped (and TE depth was so bad), and letting Arrington play against Iowa because it was a big game and we needed him. But let's not laud Lloyd for all his wonderful discipline and his clean program. He was completely willing to let his players do a bunch of questionable [censored] off the field, only to have them out there on the field on Saturday if we needed them.

And honestly, I'm *fine* with that. But I'm not going to turn around and then claim Lloyd was so squeaky clean in the process. AFAIK, he was generally an honorable guy with his recruits/was an 'ethical' recruiter, and he never aroused any suspicion from the NCAA because of how his team was run, and how he recruited high schools kids, and how the boosters/recruits interacted, etc.. And that's all good. But his record wasn't perfect if you look outside of the scope of NCAA rules and regulations and into other variables like "off-field behavior of players" and "attitude of players during games".

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Fantastic post.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fantastic post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, I'm definitely titling after the OSU loss today and probably being too hard on Lloyd. Most of his players really like him and everyone agrees he's a nice guy and treats everyone well. I maintain he lost control over of some of his teams over the past few seasons with some questionable off the field stuff, but it's probably fair to give the guy credit for representing the university well.

So yeah, he ran a clean program when you consider most variables; I just think some of players did a bunch of dumb things off-the-field the field the last few seasons, and the attitudes of a bunch of players were highly questionable on-the-field, and it seemed as if Lloyd was less likely to take any meaningful disciplinary action these past few seasons, compared to what Bo or other coaches might have tolerated.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fantastic post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, I'm definitely titling after the OSU loss today and probably being too hard on Lloyd. Most of his players really like him and everyone agrees he's a nice guy and treats everyone well. I maintain he lost control over of some of his teams over the past few seasons with some questionable off the field stuff, but it's probably fair to give the guy credit for representing the university well.

So yeah, he ran a clean program when you consider most variables; I just think some of players did a bunch of dumb things off-the-field the field the last few seasons, and the attitudes of a bunch of players were highly questionable on-the-field, and it seemed as if Lloyd was less likely to take any meaningful disciplinary action these past few seasons than he was earlier in his tenure.

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Whatever, traitor.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

Can you imagine Bo's reaction to that Wisconsin sideline nonsense?

This is why its time for Lloyd to go.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

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Can you imagine Bo's reaction to that Wisconsin sideline nonsense?

This is why its time for Lloyd to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I remember watching Mallet get chippy with Lloyd on the sideline and thinking "wtf, is this happening?" Again, it doesn't even really bother me personally -- I don't see that and think "zomg Mallet what a douche, bench him now!" But it seemed stuff like that happened more and more the past few seasons. That's why I shouldn't say Lloyd failed to run a clean program -- it's just that his teams were increasingly undisciplined on and off the field, IMO. That's all I really feel is fair to criticize him for.

For instance, Manningham's attitude sucked all year. He did get "benched" for the EMU game, but even that seemed like such phony punishment: it was as if Lloyd recognized Mario had been dogging it in the beginning of the season, but then strategically benched him against our worst opponent so as not to jeopardize a win against a better opponent where we couldn't afford to have Mario sitting out. That kind of stuff bothers me -- either give him a meaningful punishment for having a poor attitude, or just let him go out and play, warts and all, and stop pretending you really give a [censored] about the players discipline beyond wins and losses. It's as if Lloyd was trying to maintain his "zomg such a disciplined program" image while not trying to actually sacrifice anything on the field. I guess that's nice, and alot of people seem to buy into it -- but it just rubs me the wrong way.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

I'm so glad I went to this game.

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm so glad I went to this game.

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how did u get the tickets must have been difficult

$500?

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

I won the OSU Student lottery! 60 bucks!!


http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/phot...48019_9814.jpg
(I'm on the right.)

Re: *OFFICIAL* Ohio State @ Michigan Thread (11/17/07)
 

sweet, i'm an alumni myself. i worked every weekend at the hospital so never went to a game