Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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I agree with you in principle, but dude, this is Texas we're talking about, and as long as those statutes are still on the books then he's gonna be free and clear.

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I can see that there is some difficulty in determining whether or not this is legally murder, but ethically this is pretty clear cut.

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Yup,this is what I was saying.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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A real american hero... Bernhard Goetz.

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Man we just love throwing that term "hero" around dont we? Bernard Goetz was a basketcase loser. Here's a quote: the intent was to "murder them, to hurt them, to make them suffer as much as possible." Some more: [ QUOTE ]
Goetz then immediately looked at the first two men to make sure they were "taken care of." Goetz then saw Cabey moving on the bench and confessed to approaching Cabey and saying, "You don't look too bad; here's another," and then attempted to shoot Cabey again in the stomach, with an empty gun. Cabey, who was briefly standing prior to the shooting, was sitting on the subway bench during all attempted shots. In his subsequent police statement, Goetz explained, "if I had had more [bullets], I would have shot them again, and again, and again."

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The guy was bailed out when the idiot muggers were interviewed by a magazine and admitted that they were going to mug him, thus he acted to prevent a commission of a felony and was within his legal rights. They say nothing and he goes away for a long time.


"Hey, can I have five dollars?"
Goetz (in his mind): "hmmm it's possible they're going to mug me...[censored] it!" *stands and fires 5 rounds from his .38 in 1.6 seconds*

Some hero

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

"Sir, if you leave your house, you are likely to be shot by the responding officers."

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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"Hey, can I have five dollars?"
Goetz (in his mind): "hmmm it's possible they're going to mug me...[censored] it!" *stands and fires 5 rounds from his .38 in 1.6 seconds*

Some hero

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Big difference between that and "Give me 5 dollars."

Ya, I feel really bad that those low life losers were wiped out. One of them went on to rape and sodomize someone. I suppose you're happy that person lived.

To be honest though, I always thought the case was more clearcut then presented on wikipedia. I think he acted on his instincts, and they happened to be right. I had always rememebered that he was threatened with the screwdrivers.. which he wasn't.

Also, why are those guys idiots for telling the truth about the case? Maybe they realize they deserved the bullet holes.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

He fires two shots really quickly... I guess one for each guy. There's then a long pause and he fires another shot. You don't hear him reloading or anything (he just like [censored] it or whatever it's called) before the third shot. It doesn't make sense for him to wait so long before taking his third shot if someone's running at him.

Then the guy explains to the 911 guy that one of them is lying (presumably dead) on his lawn and the other ran away. Sounds like he either shot a guy who was already down or shot a guy who was running away.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

My house was broken into for the third time this year (twice while we were sleeping). I don't feel entirely safe and have considered getting licensed for handguns in CT. I was born and raised in Texas and unfortunately I would probably get charged with a crime if I killed someone who had broken in and they were unarmed. I am not sure I agree with the guys actions, but people alwyas go, "You would shoot them without telling them to stop first." My response probably, b/c they will go for their weapon if they have one. Asking them to stop and giving them an opportunity to attack puts me in danger. They may not have a weapon, but I can't be certain of that and as a result can't hesitate.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

I'm not sure why, but you guys are giving off the impression that the person who answers the phone at 911 is a cop, which is not the case.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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"Hey, can I have five dollars?"
Goetz (in his mind): "hmmm it's possible they're going to mug me...[censored] it!" *stands and fires 5 rounds from his .38 in 1.6 seconds*

Some hero

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Big difference between that and "Give me 5 dollars."

Ya, I feel really bad that those low life losers were wiped out. One of them went on to rape and sodomize someone. I suppose you're happy that person lived.

To be honest though, I always thought the case was more clearcut then presented on wikipedia. I think he acted on his instincts, and they happened to be right. I had always rememebered that he was threatened with the screwdrivers.. which he wasn't.

Also, why are those guys idiots for telling the truth about the case? Maybe they realize they deserved the bullet holes.

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One guy was paid like 50 bucks by a magazine and went off running his mouth. I think this "all scumbags deserve to die" view on the board is very disturbing, and I'm FAR FAR FAR away from a liberal who believes in strict gun control.

Yes, there is a difference between "give me 5 dollars" and "hey,can I have 5 dollars", but is that difference enough to warrant blasting away at somebody? Not in my mind.


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Ya, I feel really bad that those low life losers were wiped out. One of them went on to rape and sodomize someone. I suppose you're happy that person lived.

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Did I say this anywhere? Typical BS response. They were low-life criminals, Goetz was a homicidal nut-job who just HAPPENED to act within his legal limits. That's even debatable when taking this into account [ QUOTE ]
Preemptive self-defense, cases in which one kills another on suspicion that the victim might eventually become dangerous, is considered criminal, no matter how likely it is that one was right.

[/ QUOTE ] Btw, all 4 of the would-be muggers lived, did you even read the Wiki article?


The teenagers used the screwdrivers to steal quarters from video game machines, Goetz never once said they brandished the screwdrivers, he admitted to not even knowing they had them.

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I think he acted on his instincts, and they happened to be right.

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Exactly, he happened to be right. What if the kid just wanted 5 bucks? Goetz was a loser nutjob who pulled the trigger first, asked questions later, and the stars aligned in order for him to be acquitted. He was lucky for a number of reasons 1). They happened to have screwdrivers on them (which he admitted to not knowing) 2). One admitted they were going to mug him 3). His case came in the midst of a crime epidemic in New York City, where the public was fed up and much more likely to side with him, despite Goetz using excessive force given what had occurred up to that point in the incident 4). He only had 5 rounds in his gun. If he has a pistol with a 10 round magazine or even a 6 round revolver then he executes Cabey, and likely gets murder. He has more rounds and its reasonable that he goes around and offs each and every one of them. I mean just look at the quotes from this guy:


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Goetz, pretending not to hear them, asked Canty, "What did you say?" Canty calmly repeated, "Give me five dollars." Goetz admitted to police that he "snapped" and that his intention at that point was to "murder them, to hurt them, to make them suffer as much as possible."

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Goetz then immediately looked at the first two men to make sure they were "taken care of." Goetz then saw Cabey moving on the bench and confessed to approaching Cabey and saying, "You don't look too bad; here's another," and then attempted to shoot Cabey again in the stomach, with an empty gun.

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In his subsequent police statement, Goetz explained, "if I had had more [bullets], I would have shot them again, and again, and again."

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The world does not need more people like Bernard Goetz.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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Valuing consumer electronics over people's lives is exactly the sort of thing we need to be locking people up for.

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I disagree here.

I hate to be racist or value one person over another, but these 2 burglars arent exactly model citizens. They are a leech on society, and they are certainly going to rob someone else. Who knows if they are armed, and if they will harm someone else while robbing them?

I really can't blame someone for killing 2 thieves.

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i used to think you seemed like an ok guy. this post is horrific.

your point is not that they posed an imminent threat and the guy had to defend himself. your point is that they were bad people so who cares if someone shoots them. just wow.

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I probably phrased my point poorly, blah.

I was trying to get at that these guys could very likely harm other people when robbing another house. Maybe they think the house is empty, go inside, and are startled by a resident, and they end up shooting them.

EDIT: WTF I didnt say "they are bad people, who cares if someone shoots them".

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you don't see how those are exactly the same thing? bad people, as in likely to cause harm in the future?
it's not that you didn't phrase your point well, it's that your point is ridiculous. 'who knows if they are armed, or if they will hurt someone else next time' does not logically lead to 'there's nothing wrong with killing them'

also, lol at your use of the phrase "leech on society"
that's basically the definition of a poker player. I'm not saying poker players are equivalent to thieves, just that once we start getting into the 'they are not exactly model citizens' argument, it's a bit of a slippery slope

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

Another couple of things: Goetz had been mugged two times previous to the subway incident, and had to brandish his (illegally concealed) firearm another 2 times. It seems like the subway incident was the last straw, so he decided he was fed up and began popping off rounds. Maybe it's somewhat understandable in light of that, but I still think his verdict was really botched.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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Another couple of things: Goetz had been mugged two times previous to the subway incident, and had to brandish his (illegally concealed) firearm another 2 times. It seems like the subway incident was the last straw, so he decided he was fed up and began popping off rounds. Maybe it's somewhat understandable in light of that, but I still think his verdict was really botched.

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Dude, try not to take this internet stuff too seriously. I tried saying that his instincts happened to be right.. I'm glad they were. I'm glad those low life's got rounds pumped into them, but I think you'd probably agree with me that its probably a good thing that most people don't handle themselves the way goetz did..

On the other hand, what if goetz just draws his weapon and restrains them? Those kids probably get off with no time, and he goes away to jail..

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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Quite frankly, I think this legislative scheme gets it right. Property rights matter. This guy did the right thing by calling the police. It's certainly much more controversial, but I also think he did the right thing by trying to stop the thieves when it became clear that the police would not arrive in time to stop the crime. The only real question here is whether he should have pulled the trigger. In my view, he should have a right to do so if he subjectively felt threatened and if an objective observer would say his belief was reasonable. If the thieves lunged at him or headed towards him when he said stop, I submit that he did in fact feel threatened and that his belief is reasonable.

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This is really well-put and reflects exactly what I thought about it.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

xorbie - he didn't leave the house with the intention of killing those two guys. He only killed after they lunged at him, allegedly.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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Another couple of things: Goetz had been mugged two times previous to the subway incident, and had to brandish his (illegally concealed) firearm another 2 times. It seems like the subway incident was the last straw, so he decided he was fed up and began popping off rounds. Maybe it's somewhat understandable in light of that, but I still think his verdict was really botched.

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Dude, try not to take this internet stuff too seriously. I tried saying that his instincts happened to be right.. I'm glad they were. I'm glad those low life's got rounds pumped into them, but I think you'd probably agree with me that its probably a good thing that most people don't handle themselves the way goetz did..

On the other hand, what if goetz just draws his weapon and restrains them? Those kids probably get off with no time, and he goes away to jail..

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How am taking it seriously? We're debating. Let's not forget you called him an "american hero". I'm just trying to debate the legality of his actions. fwiw, if the 4 were convicted felon low-lifes (though only one was a convicted felon) and they got killed, then I don't think it's much of a loss at all, but I'm trying to look at things in terms of what is lawful, not necessarily "right" or "desired".

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On the other hand, what if goetz just draws his weapon and restrains them? Those kids probably get off with no time, and he goes away to jail..

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What would he get jail time for? Illegally concealed weapon? Unlikely he'd do time for that considering his circumstances. They probably wouldn't get much time, but I dont really agree that that makes it lawful to grease them. Make no mistake about it, if someone breaks into my house and threatens me, or my mom, or my brother, I'd have no qualms with putting 7.62mm of burning hot lead right through their skull, but the Goetz situation is not as clear cut as that. Which is why it's a good topic to debate. I was trying to think of his name the other day, thanks for reminding me

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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xorbie - he didn't leave the house with the intention of killing those two guys. He only killed after they lunged at him, allegedly.

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There's little point in arguing with someone so dead set on being wrong. Have fun.

edit: Actually, since we agree on everything but the basic facts which you appear to be ignoring, I'll ask a question, just for kicks. If the guy did go out there with the intentions of killing these two, would you still defend his actions?

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

xorbie you are taking the guy's comments our of context. His talk about killing was only in response the 911 operator saying the criminals were dangerous. The man was simply saying that he could take care of himself in the event he was threatened.

If the man went in to his yard simply to kill the two scumbags then he is guilty of, imo, 2nd degree murder.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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xorbie you are taking the guy's comments our of context. His talk about killing was only in response the 911 operator saying the criminals were dangerous. The man was simply saying that he could take care of himself in the event he was threatened.

If the man went in to his yard simply to kill the two scumbags then he is guilty of, imo, 2nd degree murder.

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Alright, I'm glad we agree. I'm not sure how you believe that he didn't have the very clear intention of shooting first and asking questions later, but I recognize that I'm not about to change that belief, and there's always the (imo rather minute) chance that I'm wrong.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

edit, only listened to audio...didn't read news.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

Chair,

He definitely killed both.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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What if the neighbor that he barely knew had wronged them criminally first? What if the guy actually knew these two guys, and was giving them his old vcr? What if these guys were delivery guys from circuit city who were coming to pick up a defective item?

There are reasons why we have laws against people taking the law into their own hands.

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If you are honestly using this as an argument, you are a complete idiot.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

man this thread is long. i'm in clss so i havent been able to watch the tape, but i will say this: i can definitely see myself going irate at times where it is unnecessary. guy starts hitting my sister (i dno't have one- just for an example) and i go nuts and beat him until he's dead.

what i'm saying is, i can see myself actually hurting a person very badly, possibly killing them, for them doing something of much lesser value, relatively speaking. what i'm trying to get at is empathy, i guess.

i really don' tknow about someone else's property though, that is what kind of bugs me.

i'm reallllllly on the fence about it based on what i've read so far, i can't see how you can possibly be on one side so distinctly- i feel like anyone who thinks this guy needs to be locked up should at least have a modicum of respect for his intent of justice, even if it was misplaced. conversely, i feel like anyone who thinks this guy should walk should realize that he went a little too far and should incurr some sort of punishment.

so basically what i'm saying is, i can draw no conclusions at all, but i look forward to listening to the news report, and i've just wasted all of your time with this post.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

All,

I'm locking this thread now, most of the stuff for a while is just the same stuff back and forth.

Anyone who wants to start a followup thread to discuss any specific topics brought up here, feel free to do so.

I think there are a lot of topics worth discussing around this issue, I just think we need a fresh thread to discuss them as any new points are just getting lost in the flow.

Boris, MVP, James or anyone else who has strong opinions about specific elements around this case, start a new thread if you'd like to discuss further.