Re: KK against thinking opponent
 

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Why are we wanting to b/f?

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because this is how you make money in unlimited holdthem poker nowadays

general rule of thumb: when in doubt between b-f and c-f on the river, b-f first

Re: KK against thinking opponent
 

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The more I think about it, the more I hate bet-folding this hand. Seriously, he's so rarely calling with worse here unless he's terrible.

Even if we were double barrel bluffing, the As is a legitimate part of our range and even if TJ+ came this far, he's probably not calling the river.

CF is the only thing that makes sense to me

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u realize any good villain is shoving on you if u check this river

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Can you name the hands worse than KK that you would bet this river with, and why you would do it? It'd be turning your hand into a bluff 100% of the time, so would that be the goal?

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theres a ton of reasons why we are betting this river. its not 100% for value

Re: KK against thinking opponent
 

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theres a ton of reasons why we are betting this river. its not 100% for value

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merging ranges obv.

Re: KK against thinking opponent
 

Can you name the worse hands that you would bet? Seriously, I just don't get it, but alot of people have given the same advice so I'm trying to figure out why my thinking is so different.

I never bet a worse hand here if I'm villain, so if you do please help me, I'm seriously trying to find out if I'm making a mistake when I play.

Re: KK against thinking opponent
 

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per street agg factors are 3.71/1.25/1.11

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meh, for some reason I thought he was aggro. Seems like he will check a lot of stuff behind.

If you bet will he fold QQ? If he calls with QQ, you have to bet. c-f otherwise.

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lol he never has QQ here and betting just to hope he has QQ AND will call is ridiculous. I don't think jacks or mid pairs r looking u up unless ur image is absolutely terrible (they only beat a complete bluff on all 3 streets) and I also doubt they value bet the river if checked to so pretty easy c/f IMO, he could easily have spades and have played passively or AJ, I think it will be checked through most of the time though and his QJ or something won't be good.

Re: KK against thinking opponent
 

I bet/fold cause I think there's value BvB. Then I see this:

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him: you look like a donk who
3barrels without looking at his cards


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And I really bet/fold.

Re: KK against thinking opponent
 

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Can you name the worse hands that you would bet? Seriously, I just don't get it, but alot of people have given the same advice so I'm trying to figure out why my thinking is so different.

I never bet a worse hand here if I'm villain, so if you do, I'm seriously trying to find out if I'm making a mistake when I play.

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if ur villain u should realize 90% of the time your opponent checks the river their hand has just been narrowed down to air/marginal holding that can't handle pressure.

i would bet kj/qj here. like i said not 100% for value. we are protecting ourself from bluffing frequencies and exploiting opponents tendencies to call at the same time.

Re: KK against thinking opponent
 

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Can you name the worse hands that you would bet? Seriously, I just don't get it, but alot of people have given the same advice so I'm trying to figure out why my thinking is so different.

I never bet a worse hand here if I'm villain, so if you do please help me, I'm seriously trying to find out if I'm making a mistake when I play.

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this particular hand is close. but yeah, if the idea of b-fing this river is against your very being, then you probably don't b-f nearly enough rivers.

a big part of it is the hands that they will call with. it might not make sense to you because you would never call here with 2nd pair or maybe even anything less than a flush. but they will! if you start b-fing more, you will be shocked at the kinds of hands you see even from players who you had up till then figured to be good. there's a million reasons why they show down that stuff, ranging from a simple donkey call to much higher-level thinking gone astray from a player out of his element.

another part of it is metagame, and I'll just leave it at that.

Re: KK against thinking opponent
 

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if ur villain u should realize 90% of the time your opponent checks the river their hand has just been narrowed down to air/marginal holding that can't handle pressure.


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yea but that's not really the point. We're completely killed by the calling range, no worse hand is ever calling. Like, ever. So you can call it "range merging", but it's turning your hand into a bluff because you're never getting called by worse. The only arguement is maybe you fold out a random Ace or QQ/KK, but that is a very thin arguement imo.

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i would bet kj/qj here. like i said not 100% for value. we are protecting ourself from bluffing frequencies and exploiting opponents tendencies to call at the same time.

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I don't see how betting this river as villain stops you from getting bluffed more than showing your hand down does. It also doesn't exploit his tendencies, because again, you're so rarely getting called by worse or folding out better, so it's not really exploiting anything.


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a big part of it is the hands that they will call with. it might not make sense to you because you would never call here with 2nd pair or maybe even anything less than a flush. but they will! if you start b-fing more, you will be shocked at the kinds of hands you see even from players who you had up till then figured to be good. there's a million reasons why they show down that stuff, ranging from a simple donkey call to much higher-level thinking gone astray from a player out of his element.

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I am no longer talking about bet-folding KK as hero. I've already said that's ok if you think villain will call with a J, but that's pretty thin to me anyways. I am now talking about villain's betting range if we check, which I claim is mostly hands that beat us.

Re: KK against thinking opponent
 

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I am now talking about villain's betting range if we check, which I claim is mostly hands that beat us.

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Well, yeah, if you check don't call without a highly specific read. In general either bet/fold or check/fold.