Re: Razz: Defending against steal
 

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I'm playing 2 tourneys right now but I'll read your hands later. I am definitely winning with my 8s... I'll get exact #s later.

[/ QUOTE ]I wouldn't be surprised if you are winning with 8s, or if you weren't, I guess. I was interested in the comparison of win/loss between 8s and 7s. You know, like how much difference does it really make?


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OK, I dragged out my stats.
9s : .25bb/hand
8s: .49bb/hand
7s: .66bb/hand
6s: .75bb/hand
5s: .75bb/hand

This is lifetime stats, including .25/.5 through 1/2. If I limit it to .5/1 and 1/2 I get very similar numbers. 40k hands sample. Note that I am actually a minescule winner over this sample size. It's kind of embarassing actually. A better player would probably have better numbers for all of these.

If you use pokertracker I can describe to you how to get these stats.

Note that I do fold some 8s, depending on relative position, cards out, my up card, etc, etc. Situations where I'd fold an 8 include:
* I'm first to act with something like 875, 8 up - I instamuck here unless there are very few low cards showing, or there are like lots of 8s and 7s up.
* I have a quality 8 like A48 with the 8 up, and I'd have to call 2 bets cold, or I'd have to call 1 bet but there are too many low cards after me, and they're my outs. I'd actually probably fold to 2 bets even if I had the A up unless the rest of the up cards were pretty favorable to me.

According to pokertracker, I play 3 card 8s 92% of the time, I go to showdown with them 33% of the time, and I win at showdown 55% of the time. My showdown rates for better starting cards are a bit higher, but the win rates are not that much better. So I probably play 3 card 8s better post-3rd. That's kind of ironic.

Situationally, when someone raises in steal position and you have an awful 8, you have no information - his hand can range from any 2 down, to the best 2 down, and he'll play 3rd the same way. The ONLY time I'd fold 876 here, is if the player was so bad and predictable that I could be almost positive that he would not steal. And I have not met that player yet.

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Hi Rusty,
can you please tell me how to get those results. Like the one "8s: .49bb/hand"

Re: Razz: Defending against steal
 

Sure. Go in to the general tab of poker tracker. Go down to "starting hands" and selected the "Categories" tab. Click the "maintain categories" button.

I use "ignore card order". For "3 to an 8" I select A-8 for each card. I don't remember if I did this on purpose or if it's the default, but this doesn't include pairs or trips for me.

Re: Razz: Defending against steal
 

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Sure. Go in to the general tab of poker tracker. Go down to "starting hands" and selected the "Categories" tab. Click the "maintain categories" button.

I use "ignore card order". For "3 to an 8" I select A-8 for each card. I don't remember if I did this on purpose or if it's the default, but this doesn't include pairs or trips for me.

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Rusty, if you're going to data mine, it would be interesting to compare your win rate when the 8 is in the door vs. when it's in the hole.

Re: Razz: Defending against steal
 

Yeah. I've written some half-assed programs to do that kind of stuff. I could make even more categories in PT but I'm lazy. Anyway, although sure some of my wins with 8s were steals, lots of them weren't, pretty silly to say that an 8 is only good for an attempted steal. Then again I hear PH likes to stand pat on a J low in triple draw lowball.