Re: Greg\'s Digest
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ike,

I'm drunk, but you are so wrong. You ignore the specifics about the oppoonent. I will explain more tomorrow. Basically, you assume things, like a passive 30/8 (by definition is passive, as OP would've said something about postflop aggression since it would be counterintuitive to the preflop play and thusly noticeable) is going to be betting maginal hands on the river, which is a ridiculous assumption.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP said nothing about villains postflop play. 30/8 is just a bad preflop player, you don't know anything about his postflop play. I completely agree with you if villain is passive postflop. I stand by this statement:

[ QUOTE ]

if he is the type to bluff this river, i check/call.
if he is a passive sloot, then i bet/fold


[/ QUOTE ]

which is what you decided was so very wrong.

Re: Greg\'s Digest
 

Please someone give ikestoys his own thread so he can stop bitching.

Re: Greg\'s Digest
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please someone give ikestoys his own thread so he can stop bitching.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Greg\'s Digest
 

OK, I'm moving on to the next hand. Until I start getting some IMs, I'll just pick some stuff that has a bunch of replies:

This is from MyironThumb's thread:

[ QUOTE ]
Both villans in hand were playing crazy. villan 1, who check raised flop was 59/17/2.2 and the other was 35/13/2.1

I'd seen villan bluff ALOT. basically if it was checked to him, or he had any sniff of a weak hand he insta potted it up

wtf do you do here?


Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$1/$2 Blinds
6 Players
Lego Poker Hand Converter

<font color="black">Stack Sizes</font>
SB: $276.45
BB: $1255.15
UTG: $1259.35
MP: $215.35
CO: $215.85
<font color="black">hero (BTN): $432.70</font>

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Qhttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif ($3, 6 Players)
UTG calls $2, MP folds, CO calls $2, <font color="red">hero raises to $11</font>, SB folds, BB calls $9, UTG calls $9, CO calls $9

<font color="black">Flop:</font> 7http://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4http://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif ($45, 4 Players)
BB checks, UTG checks, CO checks, <font color="red">hero bets $38</font>, <font color="red">BB raises to $98</font>, UTG calls $98, CO folds, hero calls $60

<font color="black">Turn:</font> 7http://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4http://legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($339, 3 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $104</font>, UTG calls $104, <font color="red">hero??????????????????? </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I like preflop, although sometimes I make it more than pot when there is at least one limper to punish them, but obviously this is fine too.

I like your flop bet. If the majority of players are really bad, this bet size is good, because you will still get called by something crappy. However, if you are playing against better players, you can bet something slightly less, such as ~30, because, to a good player, you represent the same thing (overpair). It's still not *great* odds to call with a draw for them, and you can double barrel the turn a lot if it's a blank.

Alright, so you get raised by BB. According to your read, we should still consider our hand to be the best. I agree. Now, UTG cold calls. This may or may not be bad. We see he limp/called UTG, so 22/44/77 is certainly in his range, but we cannot automatically give him credit for a set. He can have a draw or a pair a lot (he's a donkey). Honestly, if his was 100bb deep, I would say shove QQ here.

OK, so on the turn BB bets out 1/3 the pot. And UTG calls. I would now say this is an easy push. You certainly are ahead, and their most likely hands are draws or pairs of 7s/88/9xc. Interestingly enough, I don't think you're going to fold out anything, but that really doesn't matter, since you're ahead sooo much.

Going through this hand brings up a really really interesting point IMO about extracting money from donkeys. I think a lot of SSNL/MSNL players need to be much more fearless when they are getting money from a bad player. Bad players are BAD, and they do not have the logic that a good player has. You cannot sit there and say, "Well, I'm not going to get called by worse, and this board is really bad here anyway, so there is no point in betting. I'll check behind here." Or, "Wow, he potted into me on 2 streets, he has to know I have a pair of aces. I'll fold if he does it on the river." Bad players do not have the same thought processes that a good player does. Henceforth, so many 2p2ers don't stack off light enough to bad players. I remember one of the first things I noticed when I started playing the NL2000 games was that the players in there absolutely were fearless in betting and calling vs bad players. And, I have shifted to become this way as well. I am passing along the advice to you all. They suck. Use your hand reading ability to find out where you stand, and just press the gas all the way down if you feel you are ahead. Use analysis and all that stuff for good, thinking, opponents.

Actually, I think I might write an article about this topic. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Re: Greg\'s Digest
 

[ QUOTE ]


Actually, I think I might write an article about this topic. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah there have been a few posts in ssnl when i've just ben thinking 'lol valuestack youself kthx' and people have been asking 'but what can he call with? what does he bet with? whats his range? what worse hands call?'

answer: who the hell knows, but you should caveman it up and go 'lol x strength hand = bet/call raise'. a very common situation is something like QJ on QT37 board, u should often bet twice without thinking imo

this is also a problem i had with the recent sklansky hand where he flops top set. arguably the flop is a check because he is unlikely to be leading with less than strong draw/2 pair (or better), but to check the turn and river is ludacrous and probably why he isnt setting the world alight from actually playing poker

Re: Greg\'s Digest
 

Against bad players, you don't really know what they will call you with. It kind of goes, if you think you are ahead, you bet. I have some really dirty hands that I could post and explain the thought proesses of, but I wouldn't want to send the almighty ikestoys off the wall [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

Re: Greg\'s Digest
 

Greg thanks for your analysis on the hand I played. I like what you say about betting less on the flop against thinking players also

I am glad I played the hand correctly aswell!

Re: Greg\'s Digest
 

[ QUOTE ]
Against bad players, you don't really know what they will call you with. It kind of goes, if you think you are ahead, you bet. I have some really dirty hands that I could post and explain the thought proesses of, but I wouldn't want to send the almighty ikestoys off the wall [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg,

Cool thread.

Plz, plz post the "dirty hands" and "explain the thought processes of" and "send the almighty ikestoys off the wall."

Thanks,

Kermit

Re: Greg\'s Digest
 

Greg,
Nice analysis on the QQ hand. I totally agree with you about extracting from donkeys and I think people are way too cautious about that.

It's amazing to me how often I think I'm bluffing on say a 942 twotone flop with AJo, and turn out to be extracting max value from some donkey's T3s flush draw.

Re: Greg\'s Digest
 

I agree with Greg on the QQ hand but I think the analysis is lacking on the turn. All you note is that there was a 1/3 psb and a call. Then you give them a range and say it's an easy shove. There's a link missing, some sort of rationale that lead you to creating that range.

When I see the hand, the action is really sick because of the deep stacks and UTG calling the checkraise cold should send out big warning flags. BB on the flop can have a wide range of hands, many if not most of which are draws and one-pair hands. But the UTG call should worry you.

On the turn, however, we learn something really important about both hands. Here we have a huge pot brewing with deep stacks, and the turn was a total blank. If BB had a big hand or if UTG had a big hand, this is where they would show it. They would take this opportunity to take the pot down or charge the variety of draws out there. Real hands never bet that small on that turn given all this 3way action with deep stacks. Likewise, real hands never call such a small bet on the turn. This should be enough to reasonably conclude that both are drawing or have marginal hands so shoving looks correct.

Craig