Re: Is This Cheating?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You see someone's card reflected through their glasses.

If yes, what about if you notice that an artery pulsates in someones temple when they have a good hand.

In both cases you say nothing and use the information to your advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be cheating if one for some reason had the obligation to tell him about it, which as far as I know is not the case.

One could argue about unwritten rules or gentlemen behavior, but something like that doesn't exist in the world of gamblers and hustlers anymore. It's all about money and everything not expressively forbidden is allowed. It is the player's responsibility to protect his hand.

Re: Is This Cheating?
 

Doesn't intent matter? If I turn them up while they're ordering a drink, I've cheated. If they carelessly expose them to me, how have I cheated?

Re: Is This Cheating?
 

Can't see how it's cheating (for reasons already stated by andyfox).

A case can be made that it might be unethical or at least against the spirit of the game, neither of which makes it cheating.

Re: Is This Cheating?
 

Good post.

If you're born with x-ray vision, is it any different than being born with ESP? You have a physical abnormality that is an advantage. It would be like having a photographic memory in the days when they used to deal blackjack from one deck and deal down to the end.

I'm not sure about having an operation that allows you to have x-ray vision. That's why I think your post is a good one, I've got to think some more about where the line is drawn.

What about a player with ESP?

Re: Is This Cheating?
 

[ QUOTE ]

One could argue about unwritten rules or gentlemen behavior, but something like that doesn't exist in the world of gamblers and hustlers anymore. It's all about money and everything not expressively forbidden is allowed. It is the player's responsibility to protect his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement would justify every angle shot there is.

Shandrax, I am not coming at you personally with this. And in no way am I implying that you are an angle shooter.

If you can see the mans cards through his glasses, that's his tough luck. That player is not protecting his hand.

A player who has a physical impairment, well, it seems a little different to me. I have personally tried to look away when this situation has come up. ( he was a sweet old man, falling off his death bed, to come to the card room to play )

There has to be some sort of honour among theives?


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Re: Is This Cheating?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Yes, those are also OK assuming the player's mental capacity is sane enough to be aware of these things. If I were an opponent who saw you move to seat 3, I might tell the guy about the card exposure. Even with Parkinson's he should be able to make some sort of adjustment if he wants to.

The cutoff point for cheating vs. not cheating is deliberately moving your head to a place outside what can be considered your space, or using any sort of device that you yourself bring or put into a certain position for the purpose of seeing someone's cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fully agree with this statement.


And as Andy Fox said, "intent" is the key.


-1

Re: Is This Cheating?
 

It's cheating to look at someone's cards; it's cheating
not to warn them if they're exposing them to you. If
you try it in one of my poker games your name will be
mud, and decent folk the world over will shun you.

Picking up on physical tells isn't cheating, although
in my opinion poker would be a purer and more interesting
game without them. (Which means I think Annie Duke and whoever it was have it backwards: hoods and sunglasses are
the way to go. I'd play from inside a one-way mirrored
box if the poker rooms allowed it.)

Re: Is This Cheating?
 

Looking at the definition of 'cheating' would help.

For example: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cheating

'Cheating' is being confused with ethics and causing a communication problem here.

Re: Is This Cheating?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ignoring effort required for set-up and lucky genetics please explain to me all the the differences between the following:

Being born with Xray vision and using it to see all the cards.

Marking the cards for your benefit.

Have an operation on your eyes so they gain Xray vision.

Wearing xray vision glasses.

Noticing someone else is marking the cards, doing nothing about it, and taking advantage of the information.

You're 8 feet tall and your height lets you look over nearby players to see their hand.

You're 6 feet tall and notice the 8 foot player doing this. So you put some sort of "ass-booster" into your pants so you can do it as well.

You shave half an inch off the front 2 legs of the chairs so people lean forward allowing you to glance at their hands more often.

You install invisible hole card cams into the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

The key to these is what your opponent can reasonably believe.

He can reasonably believe the cards are not marked, there is no hidden camera watching his cards, and that no one has x-ray vision. He is therefore not responsible to protect against those things.

He can't reasonably believe that his chair is flat when it is leaning forward, nor can he reasonably believe no one is watching him from above when there he is right there. He is therefore responsible to protect against those things.

Any more scenarios?

Re: Is This Cheating?
 

I don't think there are any differences between all of the examples except the amount of effort required and the amount of "cheating intent" involved. Some are more despicable than others, but all of them are still a form of cheating.

If I expose my hand accidently and they take advantage of it I would definitely be much angrier with myself than them., but he still cheated. Though unless he planned it intentionally I don't see a reason for him to be punished. I don't think all forms of cheating are a big deal.