Re: Absolutely heated about JC Tran situation at Foxwoods
 

The one thing that pisses me off is that an attempt to muck should be treated as a muck and the hand should be dead. Also, a guy moves all in with A7 on a 995 board into someone who has J9 but they have to show the cards to prevent collusion?

Seems kinda counterintuitive doesn't it? I mean yea we all probably know this guy is just an idiot but if you're gonna say you show the cards to prevent collusion and this doesn't look like collusion then the hand should be mucked.

Not sure if it makes much sense what I'm saying.

For the record I don't think this guy was colluding I just think that once he threw his cards towards the dealer his hand should be dead.

Re: Absolutely heated about JC Tran situation at Foxwoods
 

I thought he had mucked to JCs push and the dealer still ran them out as live cards. Now that I understand the facts it is standard and there really is no argument as there was an all in and a call.

Re: Absolutely heated about JC Tran situation at Foxwoods
 

[ QUOTE ]
The one thing that pisses me off is that an attempt to muck should be treated as a muck and the hand should be dead. Also, a guy moves all in with A7 on a 995 board into someone who has J9 but they have to show the cards to prevent collusion?

Seems kinda counterintuitive doesn't it? I mean yea we all probably know this guy is just an idiot but if you're gonna say you show the cards to prevent collusion and this doesn't look like collusion then the hand should be mucked.

Not sure if it makes much sense what I'm saying.

For the record I don't think this guy was colluding I just think that once he threw his cards towards the dealer his hand should be dead.

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this is retarded... so you can chip dump just make sure you do it when your partner has a strong hand... that way he will flip over his monster and you can just muck.

Re: Absolutely heated about JC Tran situation at Foxwoods
 

[ QUOTE ]
The one thing that pisses me off is that an attempt to muck should be treated as a muck and the hand should be dead. Also, a guy moves all in with A7 on a 995 board into someone who has J9 but they have to show the cards to prevent collusion?

[/ QUOTE ]

huh? it's a general rule to prevent collusion. it has nothing to do with this specific hand. it's a rule.

Re: Absolutely heated about JC Tran situation at Foxwoods
 

He got caught in a bluff and lost focus ... the ruling was right tho ... he was ALL IN at the flop. This is a good rule ... it protects possible collusion on the table.

Re: Absolutely heated about JC Tran situation at Foxwoods
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The one thing that pisses me off is that an attempt to muck should be treated as a muck and the hand should be dead. Also, a guy moves all in with A7 on a 995 board into someone who has J9 but they have to show the cards to prevent collusion?

[/ QUOTE ]

huh? it's a general rule to prevent collusion. it has nothing to do with this specific hand. it's a rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well who is the one who decides if there is collusion or not? How can you determine if it's a retard pushing wiht A7 and running into trips or if it's two guys working together to make sure they both stay alive in a tournament?

Re: Absolutely heated about JC Tran situation at Foxwoods
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The one thing that pisses me off is that an attempt to muck should be treated as a muck and the hand should be dead. Also, a guy moves all in with A7 on a 995 board into someone who has J9 but they have to show the cards to prevent collusion?

[/ QUOTE ]

huh? it's a general rule to prevent collusion. it has nothing to do with this specific hand. it's a rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well who is the one who decides if there is collusion or not? How can you determine if it's a retard pushing wiht A7 and running into trips or if it's two guys working together to make sure they both stay alive in a tournament?

[/ QUOTE ]

if they were working together it wouldn't be so they both stay in the tournament in this case. obv.

Re: Absolutely heated about JC Tran situation at Foxwoods
 

[ QUOTE ]
He got caught in a bluff and lost focus ... the ruling was right tho ... he was ALL IN at the flop. This is a good rule ... it protects possible collusion on the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is kinda my point. If you didn't know either of the players could you not assume this is collusion? Maybe they could make the rule like once he throws his cards in they are shown and then mucked before the turn and river are put out.

Re: Absolutely heated about JC Tran situation at Foxwoods
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The one thing that pisses me off is that an attempt to muck should be treated as a muck and the hand should be dead. Also, a guy moves all in with A7 on a 995 board into someone who has J9 but they have to show the cards to prevent collusion?

[/ QUOTE ]

huh? it's a general rule to prevent collusion. it has nothing to do with this specific hand. it's a rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well who is the one who decides if there is collusion or not? How can you determine if it's a retard pushing wiht A7 and running into trips or if it's two guys working together to make sure they both stay alive in a tournament?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't know?? but you have a lot more information at hand than you would if one of them just mucked.

Re: Absolutely heated about JC Tran situation at Foxwoods
 

[ QUOTE ]

huh? it's a general rule to prevent collusion. it has nothing to do with this specific hand. it's a rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just so. I don't think anybody believes there was attempted collusion, but were two players colluding, this is exactly how they'd do it. [1]

The dealer probably should have called the floor first, but the outcome is the same no matter what. If the floorman gets there, it goes like this:

Floor: "Are those his cards?"
Dealer: "Yep."
Floor: "You sure?"
Dealer: "Yep."
Floor: "Then turn 'em over; they're live."

Mike Ward made exactly the right ruling, and anything else starts you down a dangerous and slippery slope. It was just one of a gajillion bad beats at the Foxwoods that day. Next case.

I agree, BTW, that you should probably handle it differently in a cash game (clear intention to muck face down should be respected), but that's completely and totally irrelevant here.

Regards, Lee

[1] Erm, modulo the fact that the guy would probably bury his cards in the muck quickly so they couldn't be retrieved.