Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is not a single one I view as a positive.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow. In 44 years I've never actually seen pure, unadulterated selfishness personified.

Congrats Henry, you're it.

Even the most selfish people I've met in my life had SOME redeeming value. You seem to have none.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

If I had a child I would do those things because the child's needs would take priority over mine. But if I can avoid creating the need for those demands on my time in the first place then I'm not being selfish. You can't be selfish with respect to a non-being. I would only be acting selfish if I had the obligations and choose my own entertainment over the obligations.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

You're arguing semantics, Henry. The reason you don't want children is because you are selfish. It's all about you. How your life will be affected, how it will be a burden to you, how bored you will be.

You have been told the positives. You've been told how positively life-changing children are, but you don't believe it. All you can see are the negatives, which of course there are, but we are telling you they are far outweighed by the positives. You simply refuse to see it. Why is that? Because you're selfish. You don't want to see it.

That's cool, man. You are who you are. And with your attitude, it's doubtful you'd make even a mediocre parent. You can justify it by semantics if you wish, and if it makes you feel better. But a spade is still a spade, even if you insist it's a shovel.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

That isn't semantics. Unless I have a duty to breed, I'm not aware of, there is nothing selfish about my decision. The only individual impacted by my choice is myself. Which excludes the possibility of acting selfish.

[ QUOTE ]
You have been told the positives. You've been told how positively life-changing children are, but you don't believe it. All you can see are the negatives, which of course there are, but we are telling you they are far outweighed by the positives. You simply refuse to see it. Why is that? Because you're selfish. You don't want to see it.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it is because those things have no value to me. You fail to understand that preferences are not universal. Is the concept that certain people have different preferences that hard to grasp?

Many people devote hours to watching NASCAR. I can't stand NASCAR. If a NASCAR fan tried to convince me of the virtues and benefits of the sport and after considering it I still did not agree would you then maintain that I was simply refusing to see that the benefits of NASCAR outweighed the positives?

This is the problem with people who choose to have children. The impact a child has on their life is so big that they have to convince themselves that it is the greatest thing in the world to justify it. Then they can't understand why rational individuals would be able to make any decision other than having a child.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The impact a child has on their life is so big that they have to convince themselves that it is the greatest thing in the world to justify it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I´m pretty sure he´s saying they don´t "have to convince themselves".

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

The inability to see that parenthood is a choice with pros and cons and that some people might view the cons as greater than the pros is indicative of irrational behaviour similar to that found in religious fanatics and cults. They have self-deluded themselves to make their situation work.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Many people devote hours to watching NASCAR. I can't stand NASCAR.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh man, not only are you attempting to alienate all parents in this thread, but now you've taken on every redneck on the planet as well! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
The impact a child has on their life is so big that they have to convince themselves that it is the greatest thing in the world to justify it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Henry, your worldview has been confusing me this entire thread, but this one takes the cake. Everything we parents have been telling you is the exact opposite of this. YOU are the one trying to convince himself. We need no convincing at all, we're experiencing it, and we pretty much unanimously agree. But then, I guess that's what those of us in a cult do, right?

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The inability to see that parenthood is a choice with pros and cons and that some people might view the cons as greater than the pros is indicative of irrational behaviour similar to that found in religious fanatics and cults.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course they are irrational. The reason they put up with all the work and duties that come along with children is because they really really love them, and love is usually not a rational feeling. The same reason causes them to try and convince you that their children are a greater good for them than the "freedom" they would enjoy without them.

There´s no reason for you to think most of them are "talking themselves" into that feeling, though. It´s pretty clear that it is in the nature of parenthood to be in love with ones children.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Henry, your worldview has been confusing me this entire thread, but this one takes the cake.

[/ QUOTE ]
He is being incredibly simple and easy to understand, imo. "I am rational and like to do things that are +EV, with regards to money, time, freedom, happiness, etc. After some deliberation, I am currently of the opinion that having children would be -EV for me"

And then you and others are trying to convince him that there are positives he's not seeing. Then he says he does see them and that his preferences tend elsewhere.

[ QUOTE ]
But then, I guess that's what those of us in a cult do, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]
They have self-deluded themselves to make their situation work.

[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't it strange then that not one single parent has said they regret having children in this thread? Not one.

That means that EVERY SINGLE PARENT is delusional, or you're just talking out of your ass.

I choose the latter.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Henry, your worldview has been confusing me this entire thread, but this one takes the cake. Everything we parents have been telling you is the exact opposite of this. YOU are the one trying to convince himself. We need no convincing at all, we're experiencing it, and we pretty much unanimously agree. But then, I guess that's what those of us in a cult do, right

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not trying to convince myself or anyone else of anything. I know what I want. I hope other people also know what they want. I would never try to convince someone that not having children is the correct choice.

The issue I have is that as soon as someone states they do not want children the majority of parents come out claiming it is the wrong decision, you'll change your mind, you'll regret it. This need to universalize their personal life choices is what I find objectionable.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're arguing semantics, Henry. The reason you don't want children is because you are selfish. It's all about you. How your life will be affected, how it will be a burden to you, how bored you will be.

You have been told the positives. You've been told how positively life-changing children are, but you don't believe it. All you can see are the negatives, which of course there are, but we are telling you they are far outweighed by the positives. You simply refuse to see it. Why is that? Because you're selfish. You don't want to see it.

That's cool, man. You are who you are. And with your attitude, it's doubtful you'd make even a mediocre parent. You can justify it by semantics if you wish, and if it makes you feel better. But a spade is still a spade, even if you insist it's a shovel.

[/ QUOTE ]

For most people, having kids is a selfish act. That list that was given was definitely selfish-driven. Just because Henry doesn't want to have kids, doesn't make him any more or less selfish than those who want to have kids.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This need to universalize their personal life choices is what I find objectionable.

[/ QUOTE ]
Much as I find the negative connotation that I belong to a "cult" objectionable. Whatever. To each his own.

I have also noticed that I'm the only parent in this thread today (at least it would seem). Unlike most Americans who have the day off, I'm working. I'm guessing all my co-patriots are spending quality time with their families. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Which is why parenthood was possabily the correct decision for you. I find all of the items listed either neutral or negative. Most of them I see as negative. There is not a single one I view as a positive.

[/ QUOTE ]
You asked for a specific list. I provided it.
You will note that I threw in points that to many would seem "negative".

I agree with you that these things are in the eye of the beholder, in other words subjective.

I had a prof in grad school whose name was Elizabeth Sawyer XXXX.I told here I liked her name.She asked why. I replied, why do I like strawberry jam but not plum-I don't know?

The same goes for having kids. Half of all marriages fail, and divorce is difficult on children.

Being there for your kids is much more than just providing financial support. They need your time as well. And there are no g'tees that they will be healthy or smashingly prosperous. Having children is a risky undertaking whose outcome you can only partially determine.

If you don't feel/intuit that kids are right for you then I agree they aren't and I have no need to convince you otherwise or judge you.

Oprah hasn't had any children but in my mind has lived a great life.

I encourage you to live the life that is most authentic to who you are and if kids are part of that - great, if they are not - equally great. Only you can tell what an authentic life means for you.

I wish you a happy and fulfilled life.

Best

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're arguing semantics, Henry. The reason you don't want children is because you are selfish. It's all about you. How your life will be affected, how it will be a burden to you, how bored you will be.

You have been told the positives. You've been told how positively life-changing children are, but you don't believe it. All you can see are the negatives, which of course there are, but we are telling you they are far outweighed by the positives. You simply refuse to see it. Why is that? Because you're selfish. You don't want to see it.

That's cool, man. You are who you are. And with your attitude, it's doubtful you'd make even a mediocre parent. You can justify it by semantics if you wish, and if it makes you feel better. But a spade is still a spade, even if you insist it's a shovel.

[/ QUOTE ]

For most people, having kids is a selfish act. That list that was given was definitely selfish-driven. Just because Henry doesn't want to have kids, doesn't make him any more or less selfish than those who want to have kids.

[/ QUOTE ]


I thing people need to be careful about reading things in from a few words or or jumping to conclusions too early. I think that is one of the things that is a truism in poker.

Actually I didn't want to have kids. My wife was hitting 30 and it became a tremendous priority for her. I was just about to go to graduate school and had the prospect of being (virtually) unemployed for 5 years (in a foreign counrty) - this was not particualry appealing to me.

Moreover, I had a terrible family life as a child where I was beaten physically and abused verbally growing up. My mother broke a broom over my head when I was 11 and one time beat me so hard with a leather belt that the buckle tore stripes in me and caused me to bleed all over my chest, back and buttocks- I couldn't sit down without wincing for 3 weeks.
My dad frequently told me I was good for nothing and wothless and that he regretted having me and that I would never amount to anything.

On top of this my parents divorced, so I was not particulary excited about building a family and I was terrified that I would be a substandard parent. I haven't spoken to my mother or brother for over 6 years. My father passed away 15 years ago.(Before we had kids)

I decided to go along with having kids, b/c it was either that or get divorced b/c otherwise I would have to live with someone whose dreams had been devestated.(When we got married 5 yrs earlier kids had not been a priority or desire to my wife -things changed).

I think having children was the best decision I have ever made. I have not regrets and never will. But it is an adventure and that adventure is not for everyone.

I agree with you that Henry not wanting kids does not necessarily make him selfish or narcisstic. But why then does me having kids or listing their benifits from personal experience necessarily make me selfish? This I don't understand.

It is interesting that you immediately thought that me having kids was selfish. I find this rather inconsistent from a logical standpoint.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're arguing semantics, Henry. The reason you don't want children is because you are selfish. It's all about you. How your life will be affected, how it will be a burden to you, how bored you will be.

You have been told the positives. You've been told how positively life-changing children are, but you don't believe it. All you can see are the negatives, which of course there are, but we are telling you they are far outweighed by the positives. You simply refuse to see it. Why is that? Because you're selfish. You don't want to see it.

That's cool, man. You are who you are. And with your attitude, it's doubtful you'd make even a mediocre parent. You can justify it by semantics if you wish, and if it makes you feel better. But a spade is still a spade, even if you insist it's a shovel.

[/ QUOTE ]

For most people, having kids is a selfish act. That list that was given was definitely selfish-driven. Just because Henry doesn't want to have kids, doesn't make him any more or less selfish than those who want to have kids.

[/ QUOTE ]


I thing people need to be careful about reading things in from a few words or or jumping to conclusions too early. I think that is one of the things that is a truism in poker.

Actually I didn't want to have kids. My wife was hitting 30 and it became a tremendous priority for her. I was just about to go to graduate school and had the prospect of being (virtually) unemployed for 5 years (in a foreign counrty) - this was not particualry appealing to me.

Moreover, I had a terrible family life as a child where I was beaten physically and abused verbally growing up. My mother broke a broom over my head when I was 11 and one time beat me so hard with a leather belt that the buckle tore stripes in me and caused me to bleed all over my chest, back and buttocks- I couldn't sit down without wincing for 3 weeks.
My dad frequently told me I was good for nothing and wothless and that he regretted having me and that I would never amount to anything.

On top of this my parents divorced, so I was not particulary excited about building a family and I was terrified that I would be a substandard parent. I haven't spoken to my mother or brother for over 6 years. My father passed away 15 years ago.(Before we had kids)

I decided to go along with having kids, b/c it was either that or get divorced b/c otherwise I would have to live with someone whose dreams had been devestated.(When we got married 5 yrs earlier kids had not been a priority or desire to my wife -things changed).

I think having children was the best decision I have ever made. I have not regrets and never will. But it is an adventure and that adventure is not for everyone.

I agree with you that Henry not wanting kids does not necessarily make him selfish or narcisstic. But why then does me having kids or listing their benifits from personal experience necessarily make me selfish? This I don't understand.

It is interesting that you immediately thought that me having kids was selfish. I find this rather inconsistent from a logical standpoint.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's only inconsistent if you look at "selfish" as being a negative and equal in meaning to "inordinately selfish". Having kids so you can turn them into victims is inordinately selfish. Having kids so you can raise a family is selfish; not the same thing.

For the record, I think your list was great. I raised two kids and I can agree with all that you wrote. My objection was to RG's assertion that Henry is inordinately selfish for not wanting to have kids. I respect Henry's position more because he has at least given the subject thought and consideration. As opposed to most of us, who (myself included) are handed a script that we simply read from.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They have self-deluded themselves to make their situation work.

[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't it strange then that not one single parent has said they regret having children in this thread? Not one.

That means that EVERY SINGLE PARENT is delusional, or you're just talking out of your ass.

I choose the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it, but Ann Landers famously found that 70% of parents who responded to her question would not have children if they could make the decision again.

The column (from the '70s) is reprinted here on this "childfree" site.

Obviously this is somewhat dated, and not scientific, but it does demonstrate that the lack of regret you think is universal is not.

It's true that this example is used in at least one textbook as an example of an unreliable self-selected sample, but the same text says a scientific survey found that 91% of parents would have kids again. Quite a difference, but at the same time, 91% is not 100%. That's nearly 1 in 10 parents who have the regrets you are ignoring.

I'd be interested in finding similar "regret" stats for people who choose not to have children.

BTW, you seem to have changed your tune in this thread. Earlier, you said you don't think those who choose childlessness are defective, but you hope they don't later have regrets. Now, you declare that Henry has willfully refused to "see the light" as you see it, and is therefore selfish.

There's a recent politics thread titled "what's wrong with america (7 words or less)". My submission was "Everyone thinks his opinions should be mine." Seems apt in this situation. Childfree couples merely want to have their choice be acknowledged as reasonable and worthy of respect. Some parents want to have their choice acknowledged as correct.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]

My dad frequently told me I was good for nothing and wothless and that he regretted having me and that I would never amount to anything.

[/ QUOTE ]
See, RoundGuy, they exist!

Yes, that was 100% a joke, just like all the cult comments were. I'm not saying it's incorrect to have kids (obv, since I plan on having a few myself) and I'm not even saying that it's incorrect to try to share your satisfaction with others. But when you claim that your side of the argument is unassailable and magic, while the other side is loathsome and selfish, that's when I start to take exception.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

My dad frequently told me I was good for nothing and wothless and that he regretted having me and that I would never amount to anything.

[/ QUOTE ]
See, RoundGuy, they exist!

Yes, that was 100% a joke, just like all the cult comments were. I'm not saying it's incorrect to have kids (obv, since I plan on having a few myself) and I'm not even saying that it's incorrect to try to share your satisfaction with others. But when you claim that your side of the argument is unassailable and magic, while the other side is loathsome and selfish, that's when I start to take exception.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have also noticed that I'm the only parent in this thread today (at least it would seem). Unlike most Americans who have the day off, I'm working. I'm guessing all my co-patriots are spending quality time with their families.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO this thread should have been locked a long time ago. I'm not even sure what the OP is arguing anymore. Great, we get it, you don't want to have kids and you think parents are members of a giant cult. Yet almost none of the parents who have posted in this thread have tried to force the OP into thinking that his decision not to have kids is wrong. They merely state why THEY love kids and why it has been the best decision they have ever made.

IMO OP is kinda trolling right now. He has added nothing new to this thread since about post #5. Let's lock it up and move along.

EDIT- Just noticed that Henry isn't the OP. Oops. Just seems like he was since he took over the thread.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was giving it some serious thought recently after a pregnancy scare with my SLF. I have only been around a baby for a total of 10-15 hours my entire life. I think that they are cute, but I am not capable of playing or talking to them. Making baby noises seems to come naturally to most people, but I could never do it. I don't find little kids very interesting and I can't see myself being one of those parents who decides to stop living their own life to dedicate it to Disney cartoons and diaper cleaning because "Isn't the baby so perfect and special!" I think human beings have a responsibility to pursue intellectual outlets and raising a child is pretty much the opposite. "Dad you only care about running your billion dollar corporation, not my third grade science project!" However, I know that having children is important to my SLF, so I feel obligated to comply in the future. The times I was around kids, I pretty much had to fake liking them and being interested in them to make their parents feel good. It would kind of suck if I had to fake liking my own child, so hopefully its different. Now that I think about, my father never seemed very interested in me. So maybe that is why I feel a lack of paternal instincts.

I am curious if anyone felt similarly and how it turned out after you had children?

Many of you are going to say that I shouldn't have children, but that doesn't seem realistic. You make commitments to people and sometimes you have to suck it up and do stuff you don't want to do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I basically felt exactly like you do. Then I had my daughter (she's 2 now). You'll look back on the way you feel now (and the way you reacted when you found out it was going to happen, in my case) and laugh at yourself.

It's great and I wouldn't change it for anything.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The one thing I have seen is that there does seem to be something 'missing' in people who never have had kids. Not sure if societal pressure just catches up, but I haven't seen many childless couples who have had a blast in life because they could whatever they want.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh I think this is a stereotype - that childless couples must live some sort of globetrotting jetset lifestyle, since they can "do whatever they want".

For the record I'm 39, no kids. My wife and I do not go out "having a blast" every night at nightclubs, fancy restaurants, etc. We like quiet. We enjoy watching tv together. We enjoy reading. We make each other laugh. We are basically a normal married couple - just without kids. Parents probably can't comprehend how we can be happy, living with just each other in a childless house. But we are.

But... sorry Henry but you're coming off kinda silly in this thread. Do you honestly expect a parent to sit and itemize the benefits of having kids, like they are a new car purchase or a mutual fund? Why the hell do I love my parents? After all he's just a civil servant and she's just a homemaker. Nothing particularly noteworthy about them, other than that they're my parents. And yet, I love them. Go figure. Do I need to list the reasons why I love them to your satisfaction? Parents tend to feel a deep love for their children, not sure why you can't just accept that at face value.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't it strange then that not one single parent has said they regret having children in this thread? Not one.

That means that EVERY SINGLE PARENT is delusional, or you're just talking out of your ass.

I choose the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't there some middle ground? Certainly some parents could be delusional, convincing themselves that having kids was the best thing that ever happened to them, and some could genuinely feel that way, right?

Henry wins this thread. Just because you love your kids doesn't mean everyone else needs to have kids. That's just retarded.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

I can't imagine any parent publically stating that they regret having children whether they feel that way or not...


Edit: I mean, really, unless you absolutely hate that you had kids, you probably wouldn't say anything. If you felt that havings kids was, overall, a mistake but you still cared for your children, I doubt you'd post your feeling that you'd rather you hadn't had them in a public forum. Kids read the internet (shocking!) too.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Need more parents to post in this so they convince all you idiots that kids are likely the most rewarding part of your life.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they are going to do that then they need to actually name specifics of how having children has improved their lives. Most of the time it is just abstract and meaningless statements like having children is "amazing" or having children was the best thing I ever did.

They never explain how or why children improved their life only that they did. The negatives of having children are pretty easy to list so why are the benefits such abstract concepts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Benefits include:
Give Love
Receive Love
Nurturing
Patience
Fun
Seeing the world anew through unblemished, non synical eyes
Working with someone towards a goal that is greater than yourself
Having your child reach up and grab your hand
Wrestling with your kids
Plyaing Wii/video games with kids
Eating Cheetos with your kids
Going to Disneyland and watching them skip all day
Putting on home plays
Playing hide n seek
Playing baseball
Going skating
Playing soccer
Having your son say "There are no such thing as bad people only bad manners"
Watching your kids suceed at learning
Watching Shrek Toy Story with kids
Teachng your kids manners
Having your 3 year old tell you "you don't have to talk to me that way just b/c you are frustrated"
Holding your kid when they are crying
Being there for your kid when they are sick/hurt
Building legos
Going for a walk with your toddler having him point to a car and go "auto"
Having both your kids win the VIP award 2 times in the school year both for "Integrity"
Changing your kids diapers
Cooking your kids mac an cheese jus tthe way they like it.
Having someone who ask's "Where's Dad" or "Dad will you play with me?
Having your 9 year old son tell you that his idea of a dream weekend was the one that just transpired where you had a weekend marthathon of japination.
Realizing that you could learn from your kids about being mor open and honest.
Paying $150/hr for your kid to see a child psychologist and realizing that he carries the same issues as you and that if you don't heal maybe he won't either.
Realizing your kids are spoiled and that they have a shelterd life compared to the abuse you suffered as a child but being grateful that you could stop the bs at this generation.

Realizing that it was the best decision you have ever made.
The only one you never regretted or doubted from the moment they were born.
Specific enough for you?

How long a list are looking for - I could be here all day.

[/ QUOTE ]


I have triplet toddlers now...I don't see the benefit in this at all sir, not at all... [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Henry wins this thread. Just because you love your kids doesn't mean everyone else needs to have kids. That's just retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suggest you actually read the thread then. No parent has chimed in saying that you NEED to have kids. Henry asked for reasons why people would want to have kids and he was given them. But the parents on this thread often have encouraged him NOT to have kids. I'm sure there are some parents that would force kids on everyone and that IS retarded, yes. But the majority of sane parents realize that having kids is not for everyone.

That should have been the end of the thread. Unfortunately, Henry seems to think that his way is the only way, and hence continues what some might consider trolling.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

[ QUOTE ]
That should have been the end of the thread. Unfortunately, Henry seems to think that his way is the only way, and hence continues what some might consider trolling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually that isn't true at all. Have you been reading the same thread?

My position has been from the outset that it is an individual choice. What I have taken offence to is the implication that my agency is defective because I don't want children. I've been told I'll change my mind, that I'll regret my choice, that something will be missing, that I'm selfish, that my life is empty, that I can't possibly understand etc.

All I've stated is that for me the benefits of parenthood are not worth having a boring life. There is no claim that other people should have the same values. Individual's conception of the good are private and specific to them. I have no business judging them or telling them what their conception of the good should be.

Re: Do you want to have children?
 

I do agree with Henry that a lot of parents have a prejudice (sometimes subtle, sometimes not) against people who choose not to have children. They usually categorize them as selfish, self-involved, living lives devoid of real meaning, etc. (and yes a few of these words have appeared in some of the parents' responses on this very thread). Many non-parents devote a large part of their their lives to helping others. And many parents are selfish [censored]. Parents don't have a monopoly on selflessness or the ability to love.

My issue with Henry is that he keeps asking parents to justify why they think having kids is so great, as if it can be quantified. "Because I love my children" is a perfectly sufficient answer IMO.

To each his own.