Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
AQs beating AKo. Not according to me PokerOffice.

[/ QUOTE ]

equity wise, against a random hand, AQs > AKo.
the 3-4% flush "add on" makes the AQs more profitable then AKo (vs. random hand).
ofcourse, when collide, AKo > AQs.

Yet,
If you put some sense into your opponent, assuming he will play with a rational hand, AKo > AQs always.

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

Rusty, I think there might be an argument for a difference at some M in a cash game. I think the kinds of opponents have a bearing on this also. At an M of 30 or so and below, I'm certain I agree with you fully. Above that it gets a little debatable for me.

I realize the OP is more general and your answer is for the purposes of this forum. However, I like the question about the differences in a cash game. I do like your answer but I think I lean more towards the people you describe than where you are on this subject.

I would support the idea that as the stacks get deeper and deeper and/or as the opponents get tighter and better the traditional high hands lose ev. Is it enough to change the rankings? I'm not sure I could argue that. However those conditions bring the more speculative hands way up for me.

I'm thninking in terms of ending stack values after a night of hard work and good play. Most of these nights are many hours against maybe only 15 to 20 opponents. That is much more time facing individual players and many fewer players than one is exposed to in a tourny. The style reads and knowledge of each opponent about the others grows much deeper here than in a tourny.

Sure I want aces, every hand if I can get them. However 1 pair hands that don't improve (most of the time) can be tricky to play, expecially with a thoughtful and strong opponent is calling or playing back. It seems I make most of my monster pots live against players that just can't let go of the AA or KK (or worse, other top pairs) post flop. I like the hands but I have some level of contempt for them also.

One of my thoughts is in tourny's you rarely have an M greater than 40 or so. However in live it's very common. A table with 5 to 8 players with an M around 100 or over isn't uncommon.

Really, I'm not arguing with your persepctive here. I guess I'd juse enjoy reading your theoretic musing a little in support or not.

Dave

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

Awesome graph...great illustration of hand rankings. Personnaly I still use Sklansky & Malmuth's Groups. Their top 10 hands are (in order) AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs, 10-10, AQs, AJs, KQs, AKos

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

Would anyone seriously play KQs or AJs ahead of AKo in virtually any situation?

Equity against random hands is almost meaningless. The ability to select the hands one plays makes this so. AQs gains a lot equity from being a better hand to have than AKo against random unplayable hands like J5 and 84, as in that case they are functionally the same in having overcards but AQs has the suited advantage. Yet since hand selection is biased towards big cards, AKo is clearly better.

This is also why 88 and 99 aren't as great as their equity would suggest. 99 has 72% equity against random hands - but this occurs from 76% equity against all non-Broadway hands but 49% equity against Broadway hands.

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

I would take AKo waaaay over AJs or AQs.
And actually I would take AKs over pocket deuces.
PokerStove shows AKs winning over deuces 50%-49% over 1.7 million hands.

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

I believe the reason they have AQs, AJs, and even KQs before AKos is because, yes you have the abilty to flop the top pairs and the nut straight with AKos, but over time you loose (when seen to the river) with the flush possibilities. That said I personnaly would like AKos against any of those hands (pre-flop). [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: What are the top 10 starting hands in holdem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Would you all prefer AQs over AKo?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not all-in and heads up preflop.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 70.123% 67.90% 02.22% 41856048 1369806.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 29.877% 27.65% 02.22% 17047284 1369806.00 { AQs }

But 9-handed all-in preflop vs random hands, AQs is a tiny bit better.

equity win tie pots won pots tie
Hand 0: 13.345% 12.64% 00.71% 171818 9638.15 { AKo }
Hand 1: 13.767% 13.06% 00.70% 177629 9562.90 { AQs }
Hand 2: 09.070% 08.17% 00.90% 111098 12233.23 { random }
Hand 3: 09.045% 08.13% 00.91% 110563 12426.73 { random }
Hand 4: 09.101% 08.18% 00.92% 111269 12480.32 { random }
Hand 5: 09.079% 08.16% 00.92% 110947 12503.65 { random }
Hand 6: 09.143% 08.23% 00.91% 111899 12427.40 { random }
Hand 7: 09.140% 08.22% 00.93% 111705 12581.82 { random }
Hand 8: 09.148% 08.23% 00.92% 111938 12457.82 { random }
Hand 9: 09.160% 08.24% 00.93% 111966 12582.65 { random }