Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

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If the evidence was found to be inconclusive, why were the account not closed? If there is even a small chance the accounts could be bots at all the accounts should all be closed and the funds seized. And wtf if the evidence was inconclusive then how did you determine that the evidence did not warrant the seizure of funds? This is completely rediculous that nothing has been done.

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You are completely wrong. I am glad that FTP does not arbitrarily confiscate accounts. I can't believe your position.

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After rereading my post I have realized I sound like I mean that FTP should seize funds of players they slightly suspect to be bots. I definitly worded the whole post wrong but I am quite confused as to why there is insufficent evidence (what I should have said, FTPSean didn't really touch on this subject). It just seems crazy that there is a chance these players could be bots but nothing can be done. However, it is understandable that they players in question could also be humans. I retract my statements in my previous post. It is obviously not right for FTP to just seize player's account with hardly any solid evidence/proof.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

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We take bots very seriously

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HAHAHAHA!

Oh, wait, you weren't joking?

Okay, then please answer me this:

1) Given that pretty much everyone, including those who believe the accused are innocent, agrees that this whole thing looks seriously suspicious why were these accounts not flagged and investigated earlier by FTP? Why did it take a complaint? Why do your users have to do your job for you?

2) Why did the investigation (as with all FTP investigations) take so long?

3) Why was there such a lack of communication? Both between FTP and the complainant and between FTP and the accused?

4) Given that FTP failed to completely exonerate the accused, did FTP consider allowing them to withdraw their funds and then banning them? While I absolutely agree that funds should be seized only when there is overwhelming evidence of wrongdoing (not that this has been the case in the past with FTP since FTP has a history of seizing funds with little or no justification) this would seem to be a viable alternative. Much like how B&M casinos handle suspected cheats and card counters. Is this an option FTP has ever considered? Or is that guaranteed income from generated rake the over-riding concern and not the integrity of the game? (Even if it is merely the perceived integrity of the game).

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

I don't believe the funds should be confiscated. I think the burden of proof should be higher for funds to be seized.

That being said, I would say I am 80% or so convinced there is some sort of automation going on here which is clearly against the T&C. Give them their money, and tell them to find a new site to play at if the evidence is inconclusive as you said it was.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

Sean, we all agree that they aren't "bots." Your post literally just did nothing.

They are playing using automated software, have you seen the convergence of their stats (4)individual 100k hand samples. It is not even possible for the same person to have those identical stats, yet alone 4 different individuals.

Nation confirmed that it is a "sweatshop," yet you only deny they are not bots. We KNOW THEY AREN'T bots, the humans intervene at times, OBVIOUSLY.

Do something, anything to regain some credibility.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

If not bots, then it cannot be anything other then multi-accounting. One player gives the shots, the others just push the buttons.
Just another ZeeJustin variant.
Never in a million years can have different players stats that are so much alike!

FTPSean, are you taking me for a fool?!

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

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2) Why did the investigation (as with all FTP investigations) take so long?

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You answered this one yourself. FTP's investigations take a long time. If this one hadn't, you'd be demanding to know why all the others take so long.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

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2+2,

I’m sorry for the delay in posting to the bot thread. We felt it was very important to thoroughly review the investigation notes and findings again before commenting and I should have just posted a quick message to let you guys know we were looking into it.

We were definitely aware of the importance of this situation and held a series of meetings to discuss our established policies as well as the terms of this specific case. While I am unable to discuss the specific details of the investigation, I will make some general comments.

We take bots very seriously, and for obvious reasons cannot go into the details of our policies, procedures and detection methods. Our meetings served to further refine these policies and processes in general terms, and also with regards to this investigation specifically. Having said that, if Full Tilt Poker Security confirms the use of a bot by any player, all accounts involved would be permanently closed and all funds remaining in the accounts could be subject to seizure.

After doing our due diligence in this case, we came to the following determinations:

• During the investigation we found the evidence to be inconclusive in supporting either determination (human or bot).

• After careful consideration, the evidence did not warrant the seizure of funds and permanent account closure.

• We stand by our decision. Having said that, re-opening an account after an investigation such as this one does not mean we have made an irreversible decision. We will continue to reevaluate this situation.

It is our responsibility to ensure a level playing field for all of our players. As evidenced by this thread, some situations are not as clear cut as they first appear and require additional refinement of established policies and procedures. We are working on additional measures to detect any activity that compromises the integrity and fairness of our games; this is of paramount importance and will never be taken lightly.

Sean

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I really hope you guys have read that entire thread. At least one of the "three" who looks to be involved repeatedly lied and later admitted he lied repeatedly. Why would he do that if he had nothing to hide?

This looks shamelessly opportunistic to me and I will not likely be playing on Full Tilt again.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

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you'd be demanding to know why all the others take so long.

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I am.

A month is absolutely ridiculous. There is no excuse for this to be standard operating procedure at any poker site.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

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My bottom line is, this doesnt seem to violate the current rules, but it should.

So OK, they found a loophole and exploited it, we cant really blame them for that - we're poker players afterall.

But once FTP "exonerated" them, and rightfully returned their money, they should have told them this model of coordinated play was no longer allowed and should have already started revising the T&C to make this type of play a violation.

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Exactly.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

All,

1) It's pretty friggin hard for FT to ban 100k hand/mo users unless they know for certain that something "illegal" is going on. [censored], after all of that overwhelming evidence that SukitTrebek presented, and all the analysis done by dozens of quality sleuthing and poker experts, even WE don't even for certain. It's all speculation. Allow FT the time to conduct this "further investigation" using this new evidence and stop jumping down their throats.

2) A month ago, FT most likely didn't have all of the same information and insight that we have had in the last day or two. I fully believe that some of 2+2's math and stat geeks are much more advanced than FT's. After all, this is the top poker forum in the world.

3) Keep making fun of FTPDoug and FTPSean when they come here...please! It's cool to laugh in their faces and yell at them like you're little kids. Regardless of what kind of entitlement you guys feel, they don't owe us anything. Both FT reps that frequent this board come here on their own will, and it's not beneficial for us to scare them away. A month from now, I really don't feel like reading complaints about how they don't come here anymore.

The FT bashing and threats to leave have gotten completely out of hand. Go somewhere else if you want. Who cares? But please don't ruin it for the rest of us that happen to appreciate it when a site goes above and beyond to try and satisfy such a small percentage of its overall player base.

Thanks,
OH