Re: Every street debatable
 

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not trying to debate you, but how do you know the value of inducing bluffs on this board outweighs the value of him calling down with A high or lower pp + the value of not letting him take free cards? does it just come from experience or is there some way to see that?

on a related note, there's stox's c/r c/c c/c line.

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The conclusions I have come to are based solely on the stat read in the OP. This may not seem satisfying to you but thats all the information we have at this point. IMO this guys stats practically scream out "big time 3 barreler" to me, and this is the exact type of opponent where C/C down will be the money line. Now somebody could argue that Nina said that she had a small sample on this villain in the OP, but that really doesnt change much. Less information on what appears to be a very aggressive opponent would only make me more likely to apply a showdown cheaply line.

Given no other read to the contrary, there has to be some stat line that eventually leads you to conclude that C/Cing down with a marginal hand like this is better than taking an aggressive line. I strongly believe this guy has the stat line we're looking for when we are thinking about applying the C/C down line. I dont see this guy taking alot of free cards when he should. And I wouldnt be surprised if he bluffed Ax all the way or made some other retarded value bet on the river with a hand like 55. I believe this is the type of opponent who will make more mistakes with the initiative than without it.

About Stox C/R, C/C,C/C line. I have seen him use this like when he C/R a flop with a Gutshot draw and then hit a marginal pair on the turn vs an aggressive opponent, but other than that, I really do not see the point of this line. If you have another example of a hand when Stox ran this play, I would like to hear about it.

Re: Every street debatable
 

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About Stox C/R, C/C,C/C line. I have seen him use this like when he C/R a flop with a Gutshot draw and then hit a marginal pair on the turn vs an aggressive opponent, but other than that, I really do not see the point of this line. If you have another example of a hand when Stox ran this play, I would like to hear about it.

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He advices it with marginal hands on drawy boards. There is about 2 pages on it in the book.

I think this is an ok spot to consider it.

Hero has good but not great eq on the flop

This may or may not change on a bunch of possible critical turns

villain is prolly continuing with his entire range vs a c/r

When hero checks the turn this compulsive 3 barreler will prolly fire his entire range. And again on the river.


I have never used the line in this spot. I just realized that this look like a good line for this spot. But I could of course be missing something critical.

Re: Every street debatable
 

The major thing here is your river bet, I would give enough credit to villians turn call to c/c.

Re: Every street debatable
 

I really dislike c/c river for the reasons MacGuyV gave

He is fastplaying draws. So when you c/c river he is checking behind Ax and lower pairs a lot. Even this guy. You HAVE to bet to get value from those given your line so far.

Re: Every street debatable
 

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About Stox C/R, C/C,C/C line. I have seen him use this like when he C/R a flop with a Gutshot draw and then hit a marginal pair on the turn vs an aggressive opponent, but other than that, I really do not see the point of this line. If you have another example of a hand when Stox ran this play, I would like to hear about it.

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He advices it with marginal hands on drawy boards. There is about 2 pages on it in the book.

I think this is an ok spot to consider it.

Hero has good but not great eq on the flop

This may or may not change on a bunch of possible critical turns

villain is prolly continuing with his entire range vs a c/r

When hero checks the turn this compulsive 3 barreler will prolly fire his entire range. And again on the river.


I have never used the line in this spot. I just realized that this look like a good line for this spot. But I could of course be missing something critical.

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I dont want to give this guy a clue that I like my hand, so Im not check/raising the flop. Even If I really dont like my hand, a flop check/raise may confuse him into thinking I do like my hand and this realization alone may slow him down. Against players with these kind of stats, I think playing meekly with marginals will make more money than taking an aggressive line.

Re: Every street debatable
 

Gehrig said in this post, you have to c/f in order to balance this play. The only way, I can see to balance this play is to c/r sometimes the flop as a bluf. Otherwise this line will work just against very stupid lag imo and c/c c/c will be very often far more better. So you can use this line if the board on the flop is enough rag to try a c/r bluf. With the same (or quite similar) flop, you c/r with a bottom pair or a weak pp. Then the turn card gives a lot of draws, you are no comfortable with b/c and b/f, so in this case c/c can be good.

BTW it is not the case in this hand and if villain takes the free card he has with this turn at least 9 outs. You need a pretty good read to use this line.

Re: Every street debatable
 

SO if C/C, C/C, C/C is the money line here. What turns we fold? How about rivers? If turn comes A, do we fold? How about Q/J?

If turn is blank, do we ever fold river? If turn comes T/J/Q, do we fold river if its >9 and it doesnt pair the board? These situations comes so often that it would be nice to hear how this kind of hand should be played with different variations.

Re: Every street debatable
 

"SO if C/C, C/C, C/C is the money line here. What turns we fold? How about rivers? If turn comes A, do we fold? How about Q/J?"

"If turn is blank, do we ever fold river? If turn comes T/J/Q, do we fold river if its >9 and it doesnt pair the board? These situations comes so often that it would be nice to hear how this kind of hand should be played with different variations."

Generally speaking, if a Ten hits the turn I would definitely see the river since we now have a gutshot on the turn. A gutshot draw + a chance we still have the best hand means we cant fold IMO. And assuming the river blanks off I would C/C vs this villain.

If an Ace hits the turn I'm C/Fing. If a Q/J hits the turn I think the play is close but I would still C/F.

Playing the river assuming turn blanks off:

If the river is an Ace, I would again C/F. On a QJT river, Im sure the play is close but I would check/call vs this guy.

Against someone with these type of stats, I think its very important not to make tough folds on the river if we have a hand that can beat a bluff. Thats why I would still call a Q/J/T river in this scenario. The reason I would fold a Q/J turn card is becuz the chance if him having me beat combined with the chance of him outdrawing me on the river makes folding more attractive than calling IMO.

Re: Every street debatable
 

I check/call all streets without any hesitation.The only decision I think is close is the river one.
I could see myself donking getting value of A high.But I also see myself being forced to Bet/call like Nina and I very much doubt that the river call is good.
If we c/c on the other hand we miss value from worse hands.
But we also get value from hopeless hands that he must bet with in order to take down the pot and we don´t have to face the agony of a raise.