Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

I don't know, maybe 5% of the Jewish contribution?

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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It is disgusting to see something as complex as the Palestinian/Israeli conflict be broken down to "kill all the Arabs and let the Jews rejoice". So shameful!

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I do basically agree with this. As many of you know, I am pro Israel and what you would term "right wing". However, I do not like to see even 1 innocent arab killed or the entire arab race disrespected. The only arabs I hate are the ones that wish to kill me and my family - I have no problem whatsoever with any arab who disagrees with me or hates Israel, as long as he dosnt advocate the murder of innocent Israeli civilians.

I do not think that it is helpful when either side talk about the issues in this manner. If someone believes that a solution to the conflict would be to remove all arabs from israel (or all jews), for example, i think its fair enough that this be discussed as long as arguaments are put forward. However, "kill all arab" type statements have no place in a reasonable discussion.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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I don't know, maybe 5% of the Jewish contribution?

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Eh. For several centuries, Europe was a backwards shithole and the Muslim world was where most math/astronomy was developed, AFAIK.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:

Palestinians are educated to believe - literally - that Jews are animals and intrinsically evil AND at the same time, schooled in violence and brutality.



how can you even claim to know this is true?

[/ QUOTE ]

I did state that incorrectly. I did not mean to imply that all Palestinian children are taught that Jews are literally animals and wanted to change that after I wrote it (but needed to sleep).

However, it is a very common extreme muslim religious statement in the arab world. There are many, many examples of this theme in sermons and statements by extreme muslim religious teachers and imams, many of whom are officially sanctioned.

[ QUOTE ]
Sermons by PA-appointed clergymen, and broadcast on the official PA media, have been inciting hatred daily. For example, according to the U.S. government’s Foreign Broadcast Information Services (FBIS), PA Television on March 13, 2004, carried a sermon by Sheikh Ibrahim Mudayris, from the Zayid Bin-Sultan Mosque in Gaza, in which he said that “the Jews” are “the sons of apes and pigs” and are “extremists and terrorists who deserve death, while we deserve life, since we have a just cause.”

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link

Below is an interesting article by a "liberal Egyptial author" discussing how the education and propaganda the Palestinians are subjected to cause the horrific out of control violence we see in the terriories today - violence that is also directed at Palestinians themselves.

article

article re religious teaching in Pakistan

article re saudi school in the UK

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know, maybe 5% of the Jewish contribution?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh. For several centuries, Europe was a backwards shithole and the Muslim world was where most math/astronomy was developed, AFAIK.

[/ QUOTE ]

The real reason for the crusades was to keep the Arabs from outteching us.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

Abbas and Ohlmert might very well reach some sort of agreement. Of course Hamas controlled Gaza won't be part of the agreement. I don't think that much of what Felix is proposing is even being contemplated by Israel.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

There has always been a very small percentage of people in Israel that advocate what the OP says. They have virtually no support whatsoever and these ideas have never been considered in official government circles.

If I remember correctly, this was petty much the view of the Kach political party that was banned in Israel in the late 80s.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Im sure that they dont like arabs. Most people wouldnt if they lived through the intifada when over a thousand civilians were murdered inside Israel

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So, you sympathize with israeli hatred of palestinians, because so many israeli civilians have been killed, but you condemn palestinian hatred of israelis because...?

Are you not aware that the IDF has killed thousands of palestinian civilians?

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

I fully understand the Palestinian hatred of Israelis. I also understand the Israeli hatred of Palestinians. I dont see what its so hard for you to understand this. It is to be expected that each side largely hates each other.

You have your opinion of who is in the wrong in the bigger picture, I have mine. That dosnt make any difference to my ability to understand the other sides grievances and i resent you implying that I blindly side with Israel. Regardless of your opinions on the cause of the conflict, do you not understand the hatred on both sides?

I have stated many times (in other threads) that I believe the only solution is for a Palestinian state to be created - im sure we differ regarding the timing and extent.

I dont condemn the hatred the Palestinians have for Israelis. I condemn their actions. I condemn the lies that they are taught, the dehumanisation of jews and the glorification of violence and death. Is this really controversial? Even if you are on the side of the Palestinians, do you not condemn this too? I believe that the indoctrination they receive makes terrorism inevitable and ultimately harms their cause - if they really want a state, blowing up kids waiting in line for a disco will only hurt them. Do you deny that the lies I posted earlier were made? Do you deny that their official media and religious figures constantly preach hatred and death?

And another thing, the Palestinians and many others in the arab world do not just demonise Israelis - whom they are in conflict with. They demonise Jews in general. Despite your views of the conflict, cant you agree that this is totally unneccesary and disgraceful?

Why does every thread on this issue have to degenerate into the sort of things that you posted? I am pro Israel, you are pro Palestinian. Fine. But I can fully understand the Palestinian hatred of Israel and you dont seem to understand the Israeli hatred of Palestinians, the differences in the actions of both sides and the non black and white nature of the conflict.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you not aware that the IDF has killed thousands of palestinian civilians?

[/ QUOTE ]


When you harbour criminals and terrorists you can often expect to suffer. And when you actively support them, you can usually be assured of suffering. Funny how that works.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

Should we test people's intelligence when they are like 4 or 5 and kill the ones who won't be smart enough to win a nobel prize?

You are talking about eugenics here.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

How did we go from deportation to genocide?

You are correct....you are not articulate so you use the dishonest debate tactic called the "straw man" argument. You ignore my points, misrepresent my position, then attack that fictional position.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

The only corrupt mind I see is yours.
You fear to address my arguments head on and in a honest manner. If you want to be more articulate, then educate yourself by reading. History books are an excellent source to see what policies succeed and which policies fail. Machiavelli wrote an excellent book on what policies are proven successful by history and which policies have proven to be failures.... The book is called "The Prince". Put down your Harry Potter books and read a REAL book a month for the next two years and then come and debate me...

Your feelings are not facts. Your feelings are unpersuasive. A two year old child is full of feelings but we don't base our national policy on that child's feelings....no matter how 'true' those feelings may feel to that child.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

Felix, I agree with you. It would be best for our world if we 'deported' all superstitious (religious) people.

So you have no problem with Hitler's final solution to his 'jewish question', you just wish he would have deported them all to madagascar?

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

canis,

Do you ever tire of intentionally distorting the views of others? Never mind I know the answer.

Islam = Decadence
 

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Eh. For several centuries, Europe was a backwards shithole and the Muslim world was where most math/astronomy was developed, AFAIK.

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The muslim world conquered many intelligent people and intituions of learning. These intelligent people contributed to science not because of Islam but despite of Islam..... With regard to the Ottoman Empire, it was the Sultan's policy of encouraging Jews and Christians to immigrate and contribute to the muslim society. This was the main reason for the Ottoman Turk's success as oppose to other muslim countries. The muslim countries that punished their Jewish/Christian populations fell in to disaray very quickly....

Islam is a faith that is intolerant of radical ideas. Under the leadership of Islam, the muslim world has become a complete crap hole. You give the muslims more credit than they deserve. It is like seeing a poker player move all-in three times on gutshot str8 draw, hitting his draw three times, and declaring him a good poker player. Then when mathematics catches up to him and he loses everything, you ignore his bankruptcy and focus on his past glories. The dice of history are loaded against the ignorant. Islam has proven itself to be a corrupt and decadent belief system. Don't believe me, look at muslim world. When it comes to civlization and enlightenment, the Western culture rules. Especially the Anglo-Saxon culture.... Only the discovery of oil in muslim lands by Anglo-Saxons has kept Islam from collapsing into the impotent belief system that it truly is....

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you ever tire of intentionally distorting the views of others? Never mind I know the answer.

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps Canis was the inventor of the straw man argument.
So there is no need for me to post the wiki article on the straw man argument.....AGAIN.

1% of time Canis will actually debate the issue head-on. The other 99% of the time, he uses strawman arguments and other kooky arguments. I've learned not to waste my time with him when he is in his kook mode. He is almost due to make his one coherent argument for this year. When it happens, then I can put him back on the ignore list and wait till Jan 2008.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

Felix, you want to kill er I mean deport Muslims from land that they own. (not according to your bible, tho).

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

I really hope we dont get bogged down in this debate re whether Islam is conducive or not to learning, advancement, etc... or if Jews are intellectually more productive, etc... For what its worth, I believe that the Islamic world has produced some spectacular thinkers and has contributed greatly to humanity in the past. For a variety of extremely complicated reasons, not all due to the progression of Islam or the fault of muslims themselves, I think the muslim world in general is in a deep lull today - but that has not always been the case. The Muslim world was very different centuries ago and its not true that they stifled learning, didnt contribute to world knowledge and that they only advanced due to the influx of outsiders.

Re the deportation issue - virtually noone takes this seriously and its basically not going to happen. Despite huge problems inside Israel with its arab citizens (for which Israel must take a significant part of the blame), deportation is seen as an issue only a small lunatic fringe would consider. My hope is that one day in the future, when the Palestinians have a state of their own, the differences Israeli arabs have with other Israelis will be smoothed over. A resolution of the arab israeli conflict would certainly be a hugely beneficial thing for all the citizens of the middle east.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I don't know, maybe 5% of the Jewish contribution?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh. For several centuries, Europe was a backwards shithole and the Muslim world was where most math/astronomy was developed, AFAIK.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, his statement is seriously messed up. The Arabs were focusing on math and science while Europeans were focusing on crusades, inquisitions, and church dogma. If I remember correctly they created the number representation for zero. They had a profound effect on math and science.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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but there is a huge difference in wanting to murder every last one. Palestinians are educated to believe - literally - that Jews are animals and intrinsically evil AND at the same time, schooled in violence and brutality.

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other than killing everyone, even though felix is a hair away from that conclusion, you can pretty much switch every instance of Jew and Palestinian in the above quote to make up the general view in this thread.


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Whilst distasteful, jokes between friends do not lead to the sorts of things the Palestinians have been doing.


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israel has done no harm?

israel is entitled to something, they aren't entitled to everything they want just because those influencing the government thought its their god given right.

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We are not talking of a few families teaching their children to murder - we are talking about official (goverment controlled) media and religius figures.

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oh the government of the non existent Palestinian state?

the official media doesnt have to be equal either. im not saying both sides are equal in crimes or distortion by any extent. both sides have dirty records on both counts though. im saying to over generalize either side is a big mistake.

[ QUOTE ]
The number of people who would have supported his assasination was miniscule but, unfortunately, to be expected - there are insane people in every country. We are not talking of a few families teaching their children to murder - we are talking about official (goverment controlled) media and religius figures.

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insane people just become more popular in the state of society within the territories than outside them. arab culture doesn't help but no religious culture helps, including fanatical jewish culture. Fortunately Israel more secular.

aside, official figures in the US and israel have advocated horrible things.

you also seem to be saying that all arabs are responsible for the crimes of the few but this shouldnt be true for jews?

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Can you really be that flippant about the withdrawal from Gaza!? Do you really not understand how excruciatingly painful and divisive this was for the country? Families had been encouraged to live there by Labour and Likud governments since 1967. They believed they were doing their duty (some religious, some national, some both) to settle the land. Grandparents, parents and children were buried on that land where they had lived and worked for 40 years. Even for supporters of the withdrawal in Israel, it was an incredibly difficult event. How would you react exactly?


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I completely agree with you that this is tough. I was also wrong the way i seemingly generalized how the jews reacted as i was only referring to certain ones.

the problem with your analysis is you completely ignore the people on the other end but have full compassion for every israeli issue.

Palestinians dont react for no reason either, for the most part. israel has a lot to answer for.

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"bidding"? You speak like supporters of the likud party are mysterious evil masterminds! You sound exactly like someone who has uncritically listened to the propaganda. Also, religious beliefs are only a part of it - have you never heard of secular zionists - have you ever been to Israel?


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yes ive been to israel. i know of secular zionists and my grand father there is a prime example. either way, the politics have been heavily influenced by religious fanatics and a lot of the secular israelis are very pissed off about it. I also dont think they are necessarily evil masterminds. Many are just stuck in what they know and are so obsessed with certain parts of jewish culture and religion that they feel they are doing the world a favor by spreading their land.

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I never said that hatred dosnt exist on the Israeli side - of course it does. But your idea that Israel is run by religious madmen who see the murder of arabs as a righteous obligation is simply ignorant. Your 3 cousins are irrelevant - we are talking about a nation. You say that they believe that they should be "horrible" to arabs. Did they advocate the murder of innocent arabs? Have they done, seen or been encouraged to do this? Or do they just mean that the measures that Israel must take to defend its civilians are unpleasant but necessary, in their opinion?

They are also Israeli, therefore you cant really use the word "biased" to describe their views. They are not observers from the outside. Im sure that they dont like arabs. Most people wouldnt if they lived through the intifada when over a thousand civilians were murdered inside Israel, week by week and they had to join the army for 3 years at the age of 18 instead of going to clubs, meeting girls and travelling the world.

I apologise if my tone is harsh, but by the things you write, it seems that you really have a very superficial and naive view of the situation.

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for one im very supportive of israel. this thread is only revealing one side of my views.

i just dont think you a realizing that there is another side and they have very much of the same claims and its not like one side kills for zero reason and the other side kills only in compassionate selfless ways.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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The Arabs were focusing on math and science while Europeans were focusing on crusades, inquisitions, and church dogma.

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Get your history straight. The first crusade was in response to Moslem attacks on the Byzantine Empire and persecution of Christian pilgrims in the Holy Land. And virtually every country at that time that was Moslem was conquered and converted by military force.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

Wouldn't that be an argument for relocating the Jews? If they're a smaller population, and have been able to contribute so mightily despite that, they would likely be more resilient when they were transfered than the more numerous and less intellectually accomplished Palestinians.

And it's not the "Muslims" that are involved here. It is the Palestinians. They're not 25% of the world's population.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

My reading of the history of the issue is that the Zionists are the bad guys and the Palestinians are the bad guys. Abba Eban's joke that the Palestinians never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity seems correct. But the Zionists always treated the natives like sh*t, from the very beginning. Achad Ha'am, a hundred years ago, accurately predicted what the result of such treatment would be. Most of the tactics of Middle East terrorism were introduced into the arena by the Zionists in the 1930s.

In my mind, though, all of this is ancient history. It will take statesmanship and courage to try to move beyond the damage that has been done. Attitudes like the OP's are what keep that from occurring. I note that thousands of Israelis demonstrated on the day of the meeting at Annapolis, chanting "death to the Arabs." An attitude that we're the good guys and they're the bad guys is guaranteed to lead to oblivion.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

Where do I start? Did you even read my posts in this thread?


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other than killing everyone, even though felix is a hair away from that conclusion, you can pretty much switch every instance of Jew and Palestinian in the above quote to make up the general view in this thread.

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no, you cant. until you provide evidence for this, insread of just repeating it, I wont respond. Please provide any links/evidence you have.

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israel has done no harm?

israel is entitled to something, they aren't entitled to everything they want just because those influencing the government thought its their god given right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read my posts. I have never said Israel has done no harm and I, nor the vast majority of Israelis believe that Israel should get "everything". Why do you think that successive Israeli govenments have been parties that favour a 2 state solution? Oh, I forgot - you believe there is a secret, mysterious group of mad religious jews that "influence" the workings of the democracy.

[ QUOTE ]
oh the government of the non existent Palestinian state?

the official media doesnt have to be equal either. im not saying both sides are equal in crimes or distortion by any extent. both sides have dirty records on both counts though. im saying to over generalize either side is a big mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, the governement of the not yet existant Palestinian state. The Palestinians have a government and an official media. You dispute this? When have I generalised? Generalising is what you are doing in every post.


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you also seem to be saying that all arabs are responsible for the crimes of the few but this shouldnt be true for jews?

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Please refer me to where I have said this.

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the problem with your analysis is you completely ignore the people on the other end but have full compassion for every israeli issue.

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Again, please, please read my posts in this thread. I absolutely do not ignore the Palestinian grievances. I have said many times that I fully understand why the Palestinians hate the Israelis and I certainly believe that Israel has made many mistakes.


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either way, the politics have been heavily influenced by religious fanatics and a lot of the secular israelis are very pissed off about it. I also dont think they are necessarily evil masterminds.

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No, the politics have not been heavily influenced by religious fanatics. What is your reason for saying this? Is it something your family has told you? Not "necessarily" evil masterminds? Seriously, you sound like a conspiracy theory nut.

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i just dont think you a realizing that there is another side and they have very much of the same claims

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Im now begging - PLEASE read my posts in this thread where i explicitly state that I fully appreciate that the Palestinians have legitimate claims and grievances.

You have also not answered the questions I asked in my previous reply to you.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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Where do I start? Did you even read my posts in this thread?

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i have not. im only informed of the things discussed within our exchange. i will go through the thread in a bit and am sorry if ive misrepresented your opinions.

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no, you cant. until you provide evidence for this, insread of just repeating it, I wont respond. Please provide any links/evidence you have.


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i shouldnt have made a comment about the whole thread when i was really only referring to what i could see from felix's and bluffthis' posts. when i go through the thread later though maybe ill find more.

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Why do you think that successive Israeli govenments have voted for parties that favour a 2 state solution?

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for one governments dont always act on behalf of the public. aside, i agree with you that israelis for the most part agree with me that the coutry made a big mistake with the how they've dealt with the territories.

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yes, the governement of the not yet existant Palestinian state. The Palestinians have a government and an official media. You dispute this? When have I generalised? Generalising is what you are doing in every post.


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i dont dispute this but since they've yet be treated like a sovereign state they obviously will constantly preach very harsh things since they've made many promises to their people.

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No, the politics have not been heavily influenced by religious fanatics. What is your reason for saying this? Is it something your family has told you? Not "necessarily" evil masterminds? Seriously, you sound like a conspiracy theory nut.

[/ QUOTE ]

im sayin this because its true. religious people get major exemptions and subsidies from the government. the major unjustified land expansions were the result of their lobby. how do you deny this?

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

[ QUOTE ]
i have not. im only informed of the things discussed within our exchange. i will go through the thread in a bit and am sorry if ive misrepresented your opinions.

[/ QUOTE ]

fair enough - it just frustrates me when people assume that you have to be either totally on one side or the other.


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i dont dispute this but since they've yet be treated like a sovereign state they obviously will constantly preach very harsh things since they've made many promises to their people.

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Being a sovereign state is no guarantee of moderation - the majority of the arab world has official media that spouts the most disguisting anti-semitism.


[ QUOTE ]
religious people get major exemptions and subsidies from the government. the major unjustified land expansions were the result of their lobby. how do you deny this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont deny that they have influence, I disagree on the extent. The state was founded on secular zionism and that remains the case today. There are certain highly vocal right wing religious groups and right wing secular groups. The fact that the religious groups get subsidies is certainly a huge point of contension for secular Israelis and something I am against, but it is irrelevant to the discussion. However, I disagree with your opinion that the state is somehow run by a behind the scenes group of religious fanatics. Im sure you know that there are many reasons Israelis believe that they should hold on to the territories that have nothing to do with a religious imperative.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Are you not aware that the IDF has killed thousands of palestinian civilians?

[/ QUOTE ]


When you harbour criminals and terrorists you can often expect to suffer. And when you actively support them, you can usually be assured of suffering. Funny how that works.

[/ QUOTE ]

So it IS ok for Cambodia to poison the US's drinking water until we extradite Kissinger. Thanks for answering that question.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

Ball of [censored],

It must suck hard to be color blind and not be able to tell apples from oranges.

past actions<>ongoing actions

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Arabs were focusing on math and science while Europeans were focusing on crusades, inquisitions, and church dogma.

[/ QUOTE ]
Get your history straight. The first crusade was in response to Moslem attacks on the Byzantine Empire and persecution of Christian pilgrims in the Holy Land. And virtually every country at that time that was Moslem was conquered and converted by military force.

[/ QUOTE ]
Alright, that's very much true...and during that time science and math was thriving in their culture. I am not sure why you responded in such a way to my post. The European Catholic church used it's extensive power to squelch scientific research by any means possible. They withheld from the world some of the greatest minds of all time.

All I am trying to say is that the Arab world has had their fair share of scientific advancements in the history of the world. These things seem to flow in their own way that I don't understand. For a long time it was America who was at the forefront of this stuff, it seems as though China and the rest of South East Asia will be the leaders in that avenue for the near future.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

I understand your position and agree that attitudes like the OP dont help. One thing though - its true that a few thousand Israelis protested the meetings (I havnt heard the chants "death to the arabs"). They are not the majority. Its my opinion that they would not represent an obstacle to an agreement between the two sides as the majority of Israelis wish to see a peace process. I dont think this is the case on the Palestinian side. Hamas and its supporters, of course, wont even discuss a peace deal. In classic Hamas style, today they even demanded that the UN rescind the 1947 partition decision! A huge proportion of differing Palestinian groups, due in large part to the education and indoctrination, wont even recognise Israel inside the 1967 borders, demand the majority of Jerusalem if any deal is made and, most importantly demand the right of return - something that Israel could never allow under any circumstances. These are bigger problems than the Israeli opposition to the meetings.

I am for a Palestinian state but against the meetings at the moment. As I stated earlier, anyone who thinks that any progress will be made with the weakest Israeli Prime Minister ever, the weakest Palestinian leader ever and the most unpopular US President ever is dreaming. They are all doing this for their own personal reasons. I think that someone can support the 2 state solution in principle and be against the curent farce and thats the position of quite a few Israelis.

If no harm could come of this then Id say go for it - why not. But as we have seen in the past, every time something like this happens the resulting violence is catastrophic. This is not the time for peace processes involving these individuals.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ball of [censored],

It must suck hard to be color blind and not be able to tell apples from oranges.

past actions<>ongoing actions

[/ QUOTE ]

Cambodians are still dying from unexploded ordnance on an ongoing basis. According to your philosphy, they should have a righteous terror campaign against the USA until our "house is in order."

Also, there is no statute of limitations on MASS MURDER.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know, maybe 5% of the Jewish contribution?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh. For several centuries, Europe was a backwards shithole and the Muslim world was where most math/astronomy was developed, AFAIK.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah, his statement is seriously messed up. The Arabs were focusing on math and science while Europeans were focusing on crusades, inquisitions, and church dogma. If I remember correctly they created the number representation for zero. They had a profound effect on math and science.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, let's play a little game. For every world-class Muslim/Arab mathematician you name, I'll list ten Jewish.

GO.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know, maybe 5% of the Jewish contribution?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh. For several centuries, Europe was a backwards shithole and the Muslim world was where most math/astronomy was developed, AFAIK.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah, his statement is seriously messed up. The Arabs were focusing on math and science while Europeans were focusing on crusades, inquisitions, and church dogma. If I remember correctly they created the number representation for zero. They had a profound effect on math and science.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, let's play a little game. For every world-class Muslim/Arab mathematician you name, I'll list ten Jewish.

GO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Subfallen,

What are you trying to accomplish?

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

yeah... this is really not necessary. i dont think we should get into this discussion - its really not relevant.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

It sounds like Prime Minister Olmert gets it. AP Story:

[ QUOTE ]
In unusually frank comments, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert warned in an interview published Thursday that "the state of Israel is finished" if a Palestinian state is not created, saying the alternative is a South Africa-style apartheid struggle.

[/ QUOTE ]
Comparing the current situation to Apartheid is of course accurate: the white newcomers are segregating and oppressing the local population. But Olmert takes the comparison a step farther, pointing out that the Demographic Bomb is working against Israel and that giving the Palestinians concessions actually improves Israel's long term security.

He says that one of these days, the Palestinians are going to stop pressing for a two-state solution and start pressing for a one-state solution: granting the Palestinians the right to vote in Israel. He's looking 50 to 100 years down the road and accurately predicting that without action, they are going to get it and on that day, Jewish rule of Israel will be finished.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

[ QUOTE ]
It sounds like Prime Minister Olmert gets it. AP Story:

[ QUOTE ]
In unusually frank comments, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert warned in an interview published Thursday that "the state of Israel is finished" if a Palestinian state is not created, saying the alternative is a South Africa-style apartheid struggle.

[/ QUOTE ]
Comparing the current situation to Apartheid is of course accurate: the white newcomers are segregating and oppressing the local population. But Olmert takes the comparison a step farther, pointing out that the Demographic Bomb is working against Israel and that giving the Palestinians concessions actually improves Israel's long term security.

He says that one of these days, the Palestinians are going to stop pressing for a two-state solution and start pressing for a one-state solution: granting the Palestinians the right to vote in Israel. He's looking 50 to 100 years down the road and accurately predicting that without action, they are going to get it and on that day, Jewish rule of Israel will be finished.

[/ QUOTE ]

*Warning: Insubstantive post*

ahahaha

Seriously, with the Jews one of the most educated and politically powerful global constituents that last line is way too much. Just look how much money is spent here in the United States by Jewish philanthropists on heritage tours for their kids and such.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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I don't know, maybe 5% of the Jewish contribution?

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Eh. For several centuries, Europe was a backwards shithole and the Muslim world was where most math/astronomy was developed, AFAIK.

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Yeah, his statement is seriously messed up. The Arabs were focusing on math and science while Europeans were focusing on crusades, inquisitions, and church dogma. If I remember correctly they created the number representation for zero. They had a profound effect on math and science.

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Ok, let's play a little game. For every world-class Muslim/Arab mathematician you name, I'll list ten Jewish.

GO.

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Current? Historic? What constitutes a world class mathematician? And more importantly what the hell is the point?

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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I don't know, maybe 5% of the Jewish contribution?

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Eh. For several centuries, Europe was a backwards shithole and the Muslim world was where most math/astronomy was developed, AFAIK.

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Yeah, his statement is seriously messed up. The Arabs were focusing on math and science while Europeans were focusing on crusades, inquisitions, and church dogma. If I remember correctly they created the number representation for zero. They had a profound effect on math and science.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, let's play a little game. For every world-class Muslim/Arab mathematician you name, I'll list ten Jewish.

GO.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_ibn_Yusuf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Tahir_al-Baghdadi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhamma...t%C4%81n%C4%AB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim_al-Fazari
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Fazari
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Hajj...Bsuf_ibn_Matar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Sahl
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Banna
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabir_ibn_Aflah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim_ibn_Sinan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khazini
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Kindi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_a...7taman_ibn_Hud
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ab%C5%A...s%C4%81d%C4%AB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Yah..._al-Samaw%27al
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinan_ibn_Thabit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C4%81bit_ibn_Qurra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu%27l-Hasan_al-Uqlidisi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ab%C5%A...q%C4%81l%C4%AB
http://www.math.tamu.edu/~dallen/history/arab/arab.html
http://aleph0.clarku.edu/~djoyce/mathhist/arab.html
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Dail...998042208.html


So, please go ahead and name like 400 Jewish mathematician's. If you do that I could probably go ahead and get another 20-30 names so you would have to get another couple hundred random Jewish names.

What is that point?

Just so everyone knows....I am not saying Jewish people are bad at math or bad at anything. All I am trying to say is that Arabs have had a historic influence on math and science. Jewish people have also had a profound influence on math and intelligence in general as well.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

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It sounds like Prime Minister Olmert gets it

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The majority of Israelis disagree with you. The man is seen as a joke in Israel.

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Comparing the current situation to Apartheid is of course accurate

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No, its not. Im not going into this again here - we have already discussed this in another thread.


thread


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the white newcomers are segregating and oppressing the local population

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Have you ever been to Israel? If you had, you would know how ridiculous this statement is, for many reasons.

Well, the demographic issue is a new one recently invented by the left wing to persuade Israelis that it is in their best interests to give murderous Palestinians a terrorist state on large lengths of Israels borders. As few Israelis are stupid enough to believe that the security situation would improve in Israel if this happened, they need a ticking bomb theory.

I dont have time now to find links, but this theory has been rejected by many people, including those who agree to an eventual 2 state solution. In any case, the first responsibility of any Israeli government should be to protect their people or at least not expose them to unneccesary danger. Giving the Palestinians/Hamas a state now would place the majority of the population in immediate danger and would send a very positive message to those Palestinians and arabs that wish to see Israel totally destroyed.

Re: Another Stupid Peace Initiative for Israel/Arabs
 

CC - Had a little trouble finding someone relevant in the last, say, 500 years, eh?

My point is in response to the person who said "why not get rid of the Jews" as if there's no objective reason to favor Jewry over the Islamic world. Rather, we should all pray to Allah that Islam disappears from the face of the earth as quickly as possible.

Oh, and that list I promised you. You'll find no fewer than 12 Field's Medal recipients and such recognizable names such as Cantor, Jacobi, Kronecker, Levi-Civita, Mandelbrot, Minkowski, von Neumann, Perelman, Witten, etc.

Shmuel Agmon
Naum Akhiezer
A. Adrian Albert
Shimshon Amitsur
Vladimir Arnold
Siegfried Aronhold
Nachman Aronszajn
Cesare Arzelà
Giulio Ascoli
Robert Aumann
Louis Auslander
Maurice Auslander
James Ax
Reinhold Baer
Grigory Barenblatt
Hyman Bass
Richard Bellman
Paul Bernays
Stefan Bergman
Felix Bernstein
Joseph (Iosif) Bernstein
Sergei Bernstein
Lipman Bers
Abram Besicovitch
Joan Birman
Max Black
Spencer Bloch
Salomon Bochner
Harald Bohr
Vladimir Boltyanskii
Carl Borchardt
Raoul Bott
Richard Brauer
Haïm Brezis
Felix Browder
William Browder
Eugenio Calabi
Georg Cantor
Moritz Cantor
Guido Castelnuovo
Gregory Chaitin
Herman Chernoff
Paul Cohen
Ronald Coifman
Julian Cole
Richard Courant
George Dantzig
Martin Davis
Max Dehn
Percy Deift
Persi Diaconis
Roland Dobrushin
Wolfgang Doeblin
Joseph Doob
Jesse Douglas
Vladimir Drinfeld
Louis Dublin
Aryeh Dvoretsky
Eugene (Evgenii) Dynkin
Leon Ehrenpreis
Samuel Eilenberg
Albert Einstein
Gotthold Eisenstein
Noam Elkies
Federigo Enriques
Arthur Erdélyi
Paul Erdös
Gino Fano
Herbert Federer
Solomon Feferman
Charles Fefferman
Walter Feit
Lipót Fejér
Michael Fekete
William Feller
Adolf Abraham Fraenkel
Philipp Frank
Michael Freedman
Hans Freudenthal
Avner Friedman
Harvey Friedman
Guido Fubini
Lazarus Fuchs
Hillel Furstenberg
David Gale
Boris Galerkin
Izrail Gelfand
Alexandr Gelfond
Semyon Gershgorin
Gersonides
Iosif Gikhman
Israel Gohberg
Dorian Goldfeld
Paul Gordan
Daniel Gorenstein
Leslie Greengard
Mikhael Gromov
Marcel Grossmann
Alexander Grothendieck
Branko Grünbaum
Alfréd Haar
Jacques Hadamard
Hans Hahn
Paul Halmos
Georges-Henri Halphen
Felix Hausdorff
Hans Heilbronn
Ernst Hellinger
Eduard Helly
Israel Herstein
Peter Hilton
Gerhard Hochschild
Melvin Hochster
Heinz Hopf
Ehud Hrushovski
Witold Hurewicz
Adolph Hurwitz
Carl G. J. Jacobi
Nathan Jacobson
Arthur Jaffe
Fritz John
Mark Kac
Victor Kac
Richard Kadison
Jean-Pierre Kahane
Gil Kalai
László Kalmár
Leonid Kantorovich
Irving Kaplansky
Samuel Karlin
Richard Karp
Nicholas Katz
Yitzhak Katznelson
David Kazhdan
Herbert Keller
Joseph Keller
John Kemeny
Alexander Khinchine
Joseph Kohn
Dénes König
Julius König
Leo Königsberger
Bertram Kostant
Mark Krasnoselskii
Mark Krein
Georg Kreisel
Leopold Kronecker
Martin Kruskal
Kazimierz Kuratowski
Imre Lakatos
Cornelius Lanczos
Edmund Landau
Emanuel Lasker
Peter Lax
Solomon Lefschetz
Beppo Levi
Eugenio Elia Levi
Friedrich Levi
Tullio Levi-Civita
Leonid Levin
Norman Levinson
Boris Levitan
Ya'acov Levitzki
Paul Lévy
Hans Lewy
Elliott Lieb
Adolf Lindenbaum
Joram Lindenstrauss
Rudolph Lipschitz
Michel Loève
Alfred Loewy
Gino Loria
Alfred Lotka
Grigorii Lozanovsky
Alex Lubotzky
Lazar Lusternik
George Lusztig
Kurt Mahler
Benoit Mandelbrot
Yuri Manin
Amédée Mannheim
Gregori Margulis
Vladimir Maz'ya
Barry Mazur
David Milman
Vitali Milman
Hermann Minkowski
Richard von Mises
Boris Moishezon
Louis Mordell
George Mostow
Jose Moyal
Mark Naimark
I. P. Natanson
John von Neumann
Paul Nevai
Max Newman
Louis Nirenberg
Emmy Noether
Max Noether
Donald Ornstein
Alexander Ostrowski
Emanuel Parzen
Moritz Pasch
Grigori Perelman
Rózsa Péter
Ralph Phillips
Ilya Piatetski-Shapiro
Salvatore Pincherle
Felix Pollaczek
George Pólya
Emil Post
Moritz Presburger
Alfred Pringsheim
Hilary Putnam
Michael Rabin
Richard Rado
Dmitriy Raikov
Marina Ratner
Robert Remak
Alfréd Rényi
Kenneth Ribet
Frederic Riesz
Marcel Riesz
Herbert Robbins
Abraham Robinson
Vladimir Rokhlin
Jakob Rosanes
Johann Rosenhain
Klaus Roth
Walter Rudin
Stanislaw Saks
Raphaël Salem
Peter Sarnak
Leonard Savage
Robert Schatten
Juliusz Schauder
M. M. Schiffer
Arthur Schönflies
Oded Schramm
Issai Schur
Jacob T. Schwartz
Laurent Schwartz
Albert Schwarz
I. E. Segal
Beniamino Segrè
Corrado Segrè
Saharon Shelah
Lev Shnirelman
Barry Simon
James Simons
Yakov Sinai
I. M. Singer
Robert Solovay
Frank Spitzer
Richard Stanley
Elias Stein
Robert Steinberg
Hugo Steinhaus
Ernst Steinitz
Shlomo Sternberg
Steven Strogatz
Daniel Stroock
James Joseph Sylvester
Otto Szász
Gábor Szegö
Edward Szpilrajn-Marczewski
Jacob Tamarkin
Alfred Tarski
Alfred Tauber
Olga Taussky-Todd
Otto Toeplitz
Henryk Torunczyk
Paul Turán
Stanislaw Ulam
Paul Urysohn
Anatoliy Vershik
Naum Vilenkin
Vito Volterra
Abraham Wald
André Weil
Julius Weingarten
Alexander Weinstein
Harold Widom
Norbert Wiener
Eugene Wigner
Aurel Wintner
Edward Witten
Jacob Wolfowitz
Paul Wolfskehl
Akiva Yaglom
Lotfi Zadeh
Oscar Zariski
Doron Zeilberger
Efim Zelmanov
Leo Zippin