Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

People don't override superior systems to implement inferior systems.

The implication is that at least in some situations the manual transmission is superior.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

Clutchless paddle shifting isn't as fun as straight up manuals, but it's not a big thing unless you are one of the rare people that really derive pleasure from it.

I admit if I glance in certain higher end sporty cars and see an automatic I sometimes think "weeeak," but on a major purchase, getting something other than what you want because an extreme minority of people think it might be slightly lame, is really stupid.

If you often have to drive in slow stop and go traffic, the annoyance of a manual there outweighs the pleasure difference gained when you get to open it up IMO.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]

I could be wrong, but i believe he's talking about tiptronic transmission, which originated in formula 1, and is now featured in several sports cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

To clarify, there are two types of "hybrid" transmissions: those which are essentially automatic transmissions but whose gears can be changed manually (e.g., Porsche Tiptronic), and those which are essentially (clutchless) manual transmissions which can auto-change gears to mimic automatic mode (e.g., BMW SMG). I have owned both types, and they are quite different. The former offers a smooth, automatic-like ride in auto mode, whereas the latter offers all the performance (actually superior) of a clutch manual gearbox.

And to the OP: my previous car was a Tiptronic 911 Carrera. Did that make me a nancy? Well, maybe. But guess what? I could still smoke pretty much whatever POS manual car all the haters were driving.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

i love manual's but as others have echoed, city driving in manuals is generally a bit of a pain. can't imagine ever buying a nice, fast car with an automatic though. driving a manual in one of those is so much more enjoyable.

if anyone is planning on shelling out a ton of money on a nice car with automatic transmission, please at least spend a day learning stick and test drive the same car with MT, can almost guarantee it will be more enjoyable

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]
People don't override superior systems to implement inferior systems.

[/ QUOTE ]

That logic is pretty retarded. Selling "retro" things is like a billion dollar industry. People have XBOX 360 and then get pong and whatever because its old school and fun and reminds them of the good old days.

im not disagreeing that manual doesn't have distinct advantages, just that there are countless reasons why people would want something that is technically less efficient.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]
People don't override superior systems to implement inferior systems.

The implication is that at least in some situations the manual transmission is superior.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're wrong, it implies no such thing. if people want it, it will be available. you could easily argue the other side, if manual was really superior why wouldn't it be manual, with an optional override for automatic?

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol, at mentioning VW and Subaru in a fast cars thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol at knowing nothing about cars.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

Formula 1 cars have start systems. So if all you want to do is red light racing you should definately invest in a sick automatic transmission.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]
That logic is pretty retarded. Selling "retro" things is like a billion dollar industry. People have XBOX 360 and then get pong and whatever because its old school and fun and reminds them of the good old days.

im not disagreeing that manual doesn't have distinct advantages, just that there are countless reasons why people would want something that is technically less efficient.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not the same argument. Using an older system for nostalgic reasons is superior to a newer system because the joy is in the memories. I still have an Amiga for similar reasons.

[ QUOTE ]
you're wrong, it implies no such thing. if people want it, it will be available. you could easily argue the other side, if manual was really superior why wouldn't it be manual, with an optional override for automatic?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because for most driving situations automatic is the superior option. Manual give you better control of the car but most people don't have any use for it. That doesn't mean it isn't better to have more control just that the way most people drive it won't make a difference. I have W rated tires on my car. 80% of the time I get no benefit from the higher speed rating. That does not mean they are not superior to lower rated tires.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

Isn't the paddle shifted gearbox that Ferrari offers an actual manual transmission with a pneumatically operated clutch?

It has paddle shifters and no clutch pedal, but it is actually a manual transmission.

If automatic transmissions are superior to manuals, why does virtually every type of race car employ a manual?

Drag racing is really the only form of motorsports I can think of in which automatics are generally preferred, and the highest levels like funny car and top fuel do use transmissions based on a manual setup.

The answer is simple, in the hands of a competent driver, a manual transmission is the best design. They are lighter, more efficient, generate less heat, and hold up under extreme conditions better than automatics, not to mention they give the greatest degree of control to the driver, which should be a positive attribute.

The OP should get what he wants, and new automatics might be better for most people than manual transmissions, but it is not true that manual transmissions are obsolete or inferior, and will probably never be in the hands of a good driver.

It should be noted that many of the new paddle shifted transmissions have much more in common with traditional manual transmissions than with automatics.

If a transmission does not have a torque convertor, it isn't an automatic.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

henry17 i dunno if you are just missing the point or what. i am not even saying one is more or less superior. i am just saying just because a car has tiptronic, where it's automatic but you can override with clutchless manual, that does not imply the superiority of manual.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

I think most people are not considering the OP's class of car, where, the options for automatic tranny aren't in the same class of these super efficient and awesome automatic transmissions people are using as a reference for performance.

[ QUOTE ]

lol, at mentioning VW and Subaru in a fast cars thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, nobody do the favor of asking this guy what kind of car he drives, he obviously is just goating somebody into asking him so he can talk about it.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]
henry17 i dunno if you are just missing the point or what. i am not even saying one is more or less superior. i am just saying just because a car has tiptronic, where it's automatic but you can override with clutchless manual, that does not imply the superiority of manual

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I understand. My point is that it wouldn't be an option unless at certain times the manual choice offered some benefit. Nobody engages something that offers zero benefit.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
henry17 i dunno if you are just missing the point or what. i am not even saying one is more or less superior. i am just saying just because a car has tiptronic, where it's automatic but you can override with clutchless manual, that does not imply the superiority of manual

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes I understand. My point is that it wouldn't be an option unless at certain times the manual choice offered some benefit. Nobody engages something that offers zero benefit.

[/ QUOTE ]

the problem is "benefit" could simply mean "prefers"

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

you could be like that guy in degrassi who was racing with an automatic (i think jamie), he was a loser

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

In the type of car you want, a manual would definitely be preferred. The type of cars you are looking at are generally pretty tame until you get to the top of the rpm range.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

i like driving manual better. i certainly dont look down on ppl who drive automatic. i think you should learn manual bc a) its useful anyway and can be necessary in a pinch. and 2) you might like it better

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]
i like driving manual better. i certainly dont look down on ppl who drive automatic. i think you should learn manual bc a) its useful anyway and can be necessary in a pinch. and 2) you might like it better

[/ QUOTE ]

It's really a lot like debating whether chocolate ice cream or strawberry is better. It's a matter of taste. Manual transmissions have a slight advantage in performance and efficiency -- if operated correctly. Autos are easier to drive, especially in stop and go traffic. So it really comes down to what you like best.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

I recently had to make this very decision. I purchased an RX8 but I had never driven a manual before. I ended up getting the auto version simply because I couldn't care less about racing or beating someone off a light.

Sometimes I have some mild regrets about not picking up the manual version but really I am more then happy with the speed and power of my auto and the paddle shifters are enough whenever I really feel like doing a bit more.

My suggestion would be to learn to drive a manual first and then test drive both the manual and auto versions of the vehicle your interested in. You may find the performance of the manual more to your liking or you may find it's just way too much hassel and stick with an auto.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol, at mentioning VW and Subaru in a fast cars thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol at knowing nothing about cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol at driving a VW or a Subaru even if its the fastest car on the planet

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol, at mentioning VW and Subaru in a fast cars thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol at knowing nothing about cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol at driving a VW or a Subaru even if its the fastest car on the planet

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem dumb. Post less, please.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

I recently ditched my 5 speed for a newer auto car because it was a great deal and I needed something with good gas mileage, but I now regret it.

Everytime I come to a stop and go to press down my left foot a little piece of me dies

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol, at mentioning VW and Subaru in a fast cars thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol at knowing nothing about cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol at driving a VW or a Subaru even if its the fastest car on the planet

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem dumb. Post less, please.

[/ QUOTE ]

says the guy in the neon green Subaru with pink lights glowing around the lowered ground efects kit.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Performance related arguments are all outdated. FWIW I have always driven manual and still do, but the only reason manuals aren't obsolete is because of cost. There is technology out there that will outperform a manual transmission in every way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know enough about cars to refute this but if this statement is true then why is this technology not offered on higher end sports car?

Last time I bought a performance car where price considerations were not an issue the dealership didn't mention this technology as an option.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could be wrong, but i believe he's talking about tiptronic transmission, which originated in formula 1, and is now featured in several sports cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're half right, I'm referring to any design of dual clutch transmissions, which is not tiptronic but it is the type used in F1 cars. Mitsubishi calls it TC-SST and uses it in the Lancer Evo X, Audi calls it S-Tronic and is used in the TT.

A dual clutch transmission is mechanically similar to a manual transmission, but shifting is nearly seamless (~10ms), which means not only is acceleration better, but you can shift gears while turning aggressively (if you're taking a turn in a manual car as fast as it can go, interrupting power long enough to shift gears WILL cause you to lose control no matter how great of a driver you are).

The only drawback is the cost associated with developing a new technology, but in terms of performance there is no argument that these transmissions are superior to old school MTs in every way. So while they are expensive and most likely unavailable to the car OP is considering, the fact that this technology DOES exist in a practical form makes all these arguments centered around how you're a pansy if you drive anything other than a fully MT pretty lame IMO.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol, at mentioning VW and Subaru in a fast cars thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol at knowing nothing about cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol at driving a VW or a Subaru even if its the fastest car on the planet

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem dumb. Breath less, please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]
I recently ditched my 5 speed for a newer auto car because it was a great deal and I needed something with good gas mileage, but I now regret it.

Everytime I come to a stop and go to press down my left foot a little piece of me dies

[/ QUOTE ]

I always do that when I drive an auto, and sometimes want to shift into first, too.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]

The only drawback is the cost associated with developing a new technology, but in terms of performance there is no argument that these transmissions are superior to old school MTs in every way. So while they are expensive and most likely unavailable to the car OP is considering, the fact that this technology DOES exist in a practical form makes all these arguments centered around how you're a pansy if you drive anything other than a fully MT pretty lame IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, the people saying these types of transmissions are for pussies are pretty ridiculous.

I was talking to my roommate the other day, and asked if he would ever consider a car that had just the stick-shift, but no need to use the foot clutch. He said he'd never want that.

I was like... WTF? Why? Isn't the joy in driving a manual playing with the stick shift? I personally think the foot clutch is the biggest pain.

D10 - which production level cars actually have these types of transmissions? Any that are moderately affordable?

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I could be wrong, but i believe he's talking about tiptronic transmission, which originated in formula 1, and is now featured in several sports cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

To clarify, there are two types of "hybrid" transmissions: those which are essentially automatic transmissions but whose gears can be changed manually (e.g., Porsche Tiptronic), and those which are essentially (clutchless) manual transmissions which can auto-change gears to mimic automatic mode (e.g., BMW SMG). I have owned both types, and they are quite different. The former offers a smooth, automatic-like ride in auto mode, whereas the latter offers all the performance (actually superior) of a clutch manual gearbox.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, most everything out there with paddle shifters is still a torque converter equipped automatic. The only cars with hydraulic gearboxes are Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, and BMW M cars. These hydraulically assisted gearboxes are usually the same internally as other manual transmissions but the shifting and the clutch is operated with a hydraulic system.

These things are getting very advance. On the M3 with SMG II, it does many things based on input from the engine and it's computer along with the hydraulic systems own accelerometers. For instance on a steep incline you can pull the left paddle back for ~3 seconds and it will slightly disengage the clutch to hold the car on the hill so it doesn't roll backwards. It can do emergency starts where the system detects a sudden flooring of the throttle and quickly engages the clutch, pulsating it several times per second to minimize wheel spin. Also computer controlled rev-matched downshifts. Probably a few more things that I'm forgetting. Also the more accurate control of the clutch via a computer extends the clutch life about 15-20% in my observation.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]
D10 - which production level cars actually have these types of transmissions? Any that are moderately affordable?

[/ QUOTE ]

The Audi TT is available starting between $35-$40k and the Evo X should be around the same price when it starts selling here. VWs have this kind of transmission available in almost all of their cars. The Bugatti Veyron also uses it. So it's found a pretty wide range of applications, and I expect to see it becoming much more common in the near future.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol, at mentioning VW and Subaru in a fast cars thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol at knowing nothing about cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol at driving a VW or a Subaru even if its the fastest car on the planet

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem dumb. Breath less, please.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

says the guy that looks like Poindexter and couldn't get laid with a suitcase full of cash in the back of his Subaru

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fwiw, its not that i dont want to learn driving a stick its just that I dont want to.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah great.

edit: learn to drive a stick you nancy.

[/ QUOTE ]


I can Drive Stick, my Camaro is Stick, my Charger is an Automatic
...
i am Just bringing this up because some Auto trans are better then a manual (My c6 is awesome for the Camaro but the 727 auto in my charger is >> then the manual option Mopar had/has for my car) also for the average driver (even the ones who think they are good) an Automatic with a kit installed will be a better choice.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

schumacher drives automated clutch cars in f1. he has and drives several manuals even though he has infinite money and choices of automatics in many of those cars. that said, anything that is not manual is for pussies.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

I've only read like 3 pages of this but no one has mentioned the eating while driving issue?

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

When i bought my A4 i couldn't even drive it, but i am soooo happy i got a manual.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]


I was like... WTF? Why? Isn't the joy in driving a manual playing with the stick shift? I personally think the foot clutch is the biggest pain.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, launching my car wouldn't be as nearly as effective without being able to slip the clutch and have total control of the car. Without slipping the clutch, the turbo bogs and the car lurches, if you slip it and keep the boost up, I can hit about a 4.5 0-60, vs about 6.

Yeah, I dunno, after driving autos my whole life, and driving this car for a good while, I don't think I could hear an argument that would make me think this car would be better with an auto.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fwiw, its not that i dont want to learn


I can Drive Stick, my Camaro is Stick, my Charger is an Automatic
...
i am Just bringing this up because some Auto trans are better then a manual (My c6 is awesome for the Camaro but the 727 auto in my charger is >> then the manual option Mopar had/has for my car) also for the average driver (even the ones who think they are good) an Automatic with a kit installed will be a better choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

A 727 Torqueflite? What year is your Charger? Have you ever jumped it over a barn?

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fwiw, its not that i dont want to learn


I can Drive Stick, my Camaro is Stick, my Charger is an Automatic
...
i am Just bringing this up because some Auto trans are better then a manual (My c6 is awesome for the Camaro but the 727 auto in my charger is >> then the manual option Mopar had/has for my car) also for the average driver (even the ones who think they are good) an Automatic with a kit installed will be a better choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

A 727 Torqueflite? What year is your Charger? Have you ever jumped it over a barn?

[/ QUOTE ]

71 , the tranny however is out of a 69 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

barn Jumping soon to come...

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have a mustang GT in auto and its still fun to drive, i don't think it will hurt performance too much

[/ QUOTE ]

i just puked a little in my mouth.

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

how sad is it that i bought a manual so i can be a superstar racer but now i go through turns in the highest gear possible to save gas [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: getting fast cars in automatic....
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fwiw, its not that i dont want to learn


I can Drive Stick, my Camaro is Stick, my Charger is an Automatic
...
i am Just bringing this up because some Auto trans are better then a manual (My c6 is awesome for the Camaro but the 727 auto in my charger is >> then the manual option Mopar had/has for my car) also for the average driver (even the ones who think they are good) an Automatic with a kit installed will be a better choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

A 727 Torqueflite? What year is your Charger? Have you ever jumped it over a barn?

[/ QUOTE ]

71 , the tranny however is out of a 69 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

barn Jumping soon to come...

[/ QUOTE ]

SWEET