Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

it cost you the $37 plus future ev because you would still have been chipleader on the bubble, the other two short stacks would have been whittled down to almost nothing before one went out, and you would be winning 3 blinds for ever 1 blind I won. Calling me here is just absolutely stupid, and probably cost you around $100 in just this tournament. Yea it cost me money as well, but I guarantee you it cost you more because I am going to spite call the [censored] out of you every chance I get from now on, and I am rich enough that the money it costs me won't mean anything. And I 16 table continuous so I will be in a ton of your games. Congrats on the metagame call. And I'm not shoving low unsuited cards there because the short stacks aren't folding near as much as all of you have been assuming.

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

[ QUOTE ]
it cost you the $37 plus future ev because you would still have been chipleader on the bubble, the other two short stacks would have been whittled down to almost nothing before one went out, and you would be winning 3 blinds for ever 1 blind I won. Calling me here is just absolutely stupid, and probably cost you around $100 in just this tournament. Yea it cost me money as well, but I guarantee you it cost you more because I am going to spite call the [censored] out of you every chance I get from now on, and I am rich enough that the money it costs me won't mean anything. And I 16 table continuous so I will be in a ton of your games. Congrats on the metagame call. And I'm not shoving low unsuited cards there because the short stacks aren't folding near as much as all of you have been assuming.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=epeen

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=epeen

[/ QUOTE ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising

(I love these kinds of threads. So fun.)

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

WHO IS LEVELLING WHO ZOMG ITS LIKE A GAME OF CHICKEN IN GAME THEORY BOTH HAVE TO APPEAR CRAZY IN ORDER TO WIN APPLIED ECONOMICS AND GAME THEORY INFECTING OUR POKERZ ZOMG

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=epeen

[/ QUOTE ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising

(I love these kinds of threads. So fun.)

[/ QUOTE ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_of_chicken

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

[ QUOTE ]
it cost you the $37 plus future ev because you would still have been chipleader on the bubble, the other two short stacks would have been whittled down to almost nothing before one went out, and you would be winning 3 blinds for ever 1 blind I won. Calling me here is just absolutely stupid, and probably cost you around $100 in just this tournament. Yea it cost me money as well, but I guarantee you it cost you more because I am going to spite call the [censored] out of you every chance I get from now on, and I am rich enough that the money it costs me won't mean anything. And I 16 table continuous so I will be in a ton of your games. Congrats on the metagame call. And I'm not shoving low unsuited cards there because the short stacks aren't folding near as much as all of you have been assuming.

[/ QUOTE ]

This from the same guy who wrote:

I think this sums up nicely exactly the situation here. I hope all of you realize that DDBeast shoving here is basically taking like 30 dollars out of hg's pocket and putting it into his own. And when your the chipleader on the bubble its your right to take that 30 dollars. So if hg continues to let DDBeast push marginal crap on his bubble all day long then he loses alot of money in the long run. So its worth getting no money in this tournament in order to let DDBeast no that if he pushes when hg is the chipleader on the bubble he will get randomly called with anything. How often? who knows, but probly often enough so that DDBEast will eventually stop pushing marginal crap.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post9024679


(That was a fun thread too.)

Also if hero folds here, he's not the CL anymore. But I'm sure joey will still going to let him shove through at will.

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

loooooool I call AK and worse here, I can tell you that.

Ryan

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

[ QUOTE ]
As alluded to, the problem is he's on your left, not your right. That makes a big, big difference for the expected EV of near-future hands.

But yeah, calling is fun to do everytime

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

But you're not CL anymore. And you'd need to still be CL by a few K to know that you're still going to get to own. A lot of stuff can happen on the next hand. Either of the blinds could shove. They could fold to you and you look down at 23o and lose your nerve, knowing joey could call with a wide range.

So it's not like there's this golden path to ownage still all set up for you if you fold here.

I'm just bored at work and stirring the pot btw. I really don't want to get into a big pissing thing like that other thread. Just having fun.

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

[ QUOTE ]
it cost you the $37 plus future ev because you would still have been chipleader on the bubble, the other two short stacks would have been whittled down to almost nothing before one went out, and you would be winning 3 blinds for ever 1 blind I won. Calling me here is just absolutely stupid, and probably cost you around $100 in just this tournament. Yea it cost me money as well, but I guarantee you it cost you more because I am going to spite call the [censored] out of you every chance I get from now on, and I am rich enough that the money it costs me won't mean anything. And I 16 table continuous so I will be in a ton of your games. Congrats on the metagame call. And I'm not shoving low unsuited cards there because the short stacks aren't folding near as much as all of you have been assuming.

[/ QUOTE ]

nice metagame post, but as someone else pointed out, I was just following what you say here:

I think this sums up nicely exactly the situation here. I hope all of you realize that DDBeast shoving here is basically taking like 30 dollars out of hg's pocket and putting it into his own. And when your the chipleader on the bubble its your right to take that 30 dollars. So if hg continues to let DDBeast push marginal crap on his bubble all day long then he loses alot of money in the long run. So its worth getting no money in this tournament in order to let DDBeast no that if he pushes when hg is the chipleader on the bubble he will get randomly called with anything. How often? who knows, but probly often enough so that DDBEast will eventually stop pushing marginal crap.

So basically, you agree with me. I'm not going to continue this chicken game if I can help it.


I may not be on the 99 aston martin status, but I'm confortable enough to match spite calls. But that's a silly road for anyone to go down. So, my plan for here on out is basically to mirror your calling ranges. If you are spite calling me with T9, I'll do the same. If you are folding AKo everytime in this spot should our situation be reverse, I just might start mucking the AKo.

What I won't do is sacriface my EV so you can simply increase yours.

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I may not be on the 99 aston martin status, but I'm confortable enough to match spite calls. But that's a silly road for anyone to go down. So, my plan for here on out is basically to mirror your calling ranges. If you are spite calling me with T9, I'll do the same. If you are folding AKo everytime in this spot should our situation be reverse, I just might start mucking the AKo.


[/ QUOTE ]

someone found the game theoretic solution (nash equilibrium).

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I may not be on the 99 aston martin status, but I'm confortable enough to match spite calls. But that's a silly road for anyone to go down. So, my plan for here on out is basically to mirror your calling ranges. If you are spite calling me with T9, I'll do the same. If you are folding AKo everytime in this spot should our situation be reverse, I just might start mucking the AKo.


[/ QUOTE ]

someone found the game theoretic solution (nash equilibrium).

[/ QUOTE ]
It's just the "Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma" in disguise.

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

[ QUOTE ]
it cost you the $37 plus future ev because you would still have been chipleader on the bubble, the other two short stacks would have been whittled down to almost nothing before one went out, and you would be winning 3 blinds for ever 1 blind I won. Calling me here is just absolutely stupid, and probably cost you around $100 in just this tournament. Yea it cost me money as well, but I guarantee you it cost you more because I am going to spite call the [censored] out of you every chance I get from now on, and I am rich enough that the money it costs me won't mean anything. And I 16 table continuous so I will be in a ton of your games. Congrats on the metagame call. And I'm not shoving low unsuited cards there because the short stacks aren't folding near as much as all of you have been assuming.

[/ QUOTE ]

love it. good job Joe

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

"I may not be on the 99 aston martin status, but I'm confortable enough to match spite calls. But that's a silly road for anyone to go down. So, my plan for here on out is basically to mirror your calling ranges. If you are spite calling me with T9, I'll do the same. If you are folding AKo everytime in this spot should our situation be reverse, I just might start mucking the AKo."

Eureka! Tit for tat is definitely the best stategy. It will end up with neither of you spitecalling and so you wont be passing on EV to the weaker players (that is if you are both rational agents [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

fine, transfer me the $350 you cost me and I'll call it even.

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

I didn't really know at the time it was a -ev play, I've just recently gotten into the equity math and all, and don't have any of those programs. I'm pretty sure most players would call AKo here, except maybe some of the top regulars, who apparently may call 74o.

According to what you teach your students, it looks I should occasionally be calling you there with 74o. This would suggest that you take the 'my bubble' concept (as chipleader) much more seriously than I do... so I don't see why this is such a big deal to you, unless your position is that I should have called you with 74o (to make a point) there but not AKo (which favors fairly well against your range.)

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

instead of taking each others money by calling light you should talk to each other and agree to not call light on both sites.
just read so else has already pointed that out, yeah but whatever [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

I just downloaded SNG wizard and I was incorrect about a few things, although you may have been as well.

If you're pushing your between 40 and 80%, this is a +EV call. and really, based on what you said, you are pushing about 70% in this spot, so really this wasn't a metagame call at all, it was +EV.

(If your range goes up to 100%, it says this is a fold, but AQs is a call FYI.)

not sure how you can really object so much given this information.

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

[ QUOTE ]
10 handed $225 on the bubble. utg is bigjoe2003.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (4 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">UTG (t5225)</font>
Button (t1800)
SB (t2140)
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t5835)</font>

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t5200</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t4800.

Flop: (t10075) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t10075) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t10075) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t10075

Upon busting, bigjoe informed me that this play was like -$100EV. My reasoning is that while this might be -EV for me, it is worse more -EV for him, and if I make calls like this against regulars, they will not be able to profitably push garbage on the bubble any more vs. my big blind. (he had J6). He said he wouldn't change his push range because I call him there with AK, but I'm not so sure. Seems like he'd have to to maximize profit.

Not to mention, if I fold everything in this situation but AA-QQ I not only make it very profitable for him to push any2 on the bubble, I also make it very likely that once we are in the money I will have equal of less chips than someone who is going to play roughly perfectly, while the other two players were pretty bad and missed out on all kinds of +ev situations, meaning that if I take out bigjoe I have a monster stack and lots of fold equity, giving me a very good chance of taking first.

is my reasoning sound at all, or am I just giving money away?

[/ QUOTE ]


Dude you have to call a lot lighter than AK for him to need to adjust his pushing range. Anyway I suspect that calling may be correct if hes pushing 100%. It really means a lot that when you lose you still have 600 chips. That's quite a lot of equity, even if it may seem meaningless at first glance.

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

Only read up to page 4 of this thread, so maybe it's been mentioned. I don't know how calling AKo adds much metaEV at all when it's adding like one-three hands to your calling range. I don't think it makes him any less likely to fold to you in this situation because it will still be profitable to push ATC with your calling range of QQ+, AK. Unless he extrapolates that AKo call means you'll call any pair 8's or better.

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

Well if he's shoving any 2, AKo isn't that much different than AJs. So if you put some doubt in his mind that you'll call him with other big aces, then his range starts to change drastically.

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

ok I read a bit of this thread and just want to say one thing:

lol at people thinking him calling with AKo will tighten up anyones pushing range. Zomg, dalla calls as wide as 4%, I better not shove into him.

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well if he's shoving any 2, AKo isn't that much different than AJs. So if you put some doubt in his mind that you'll call him with other big aces, then his range starts to change drastically.

[/ QUOTE ]


AJs is better than AKo if hes shoving any 2 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

JTs is better than 22. Um... never really thought about that with AJs. I guess I've folded AKo to plenty of shoves near bubble time as 2nd stack, but I can't imagine that this would be one of them, even if BigJoe threatened to haunt me in the afterlife or whatever he promised.

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok I read a bit of this thread and just want to say one thing:

lol at people thinking him calling with AKo will tighten up anyones pushing range. Zomg, dalla calls as wide as 4%, I better not shove into him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, you're like the 7th person who's said this. Yes if dalla calls, and says "don't worry, I'll never call you with AQ or AJ, I promise, then no joe's range doesn't change much." But that's not the way it happens.

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

1) he's not pushing ATC, more like 70%.
2) AKo is a +EV call against 40% - 80% pushing range, according to SNG wizard.
3) it is a losing call against 100%, but he admitted he doesn't push 100% there.

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

i love the "im a rich nerd" threats going on in this thread.

what a tool

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok I read a bit of this thread and just want to say one thing:

lol at people thinking him calling with AKo will tighten up anyones pushing range. Zomg, dalla calls as wide as 4%, I better not shove into him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, you're like the 7th person who's said this. Yes if dalla calls, and says "don't worry, I'll never call you with AQ or AJ, I promise, then no joe's range doesn't change much." But that's not the way it happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

For one, even if he calls with AQ or AJ it's still not going to change his range that much. It's still a very small %. Second, calling with AK in no way comes even close to suggesting that some one will call with AJ.

So, when someone calls with AK you have to assume they'll call with AJ? What assumptions do you make when they call with AT, that they are calling any A? What about when they call with A2, then they are calling with any A, strong to med Ks and some strong Qs?

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok I read a bit of this thread and just want to say one thing:

lol at people thinking him calling with AKo will tighten up anyones pushing range. Zomg, dalla calls as wide as 4%, I better not shove into him.

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT, this call can very easily be +EV in a bubble because Joey will continue to pwn the bubble causing ICM to overstate your equity, but calling with AK will have very few meta implications.

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

I thought BigJo'k'e was a tool before, but his reply in this thread about spite calling you every time now b/c he "is rich enough that it doesn't matter" just confirmed it.

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

i challenge both selurah and Rrizgod to an MMA fight. In fact I'll pay either of you $500 to do so as long as you sign something stating you can't sue me after I break your arms.

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

this is a really easy call vs this particular player and I would call even lighter.

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Two probably stupid newb questions:

[ QUOTE ]
I would never fold AK to bigjoe here if he shoves into me. I know that he knows that im not gonna call with AA KK QQ etc... and therefore he WILL push ATC here and AK will have him beat almost every time

[/ QUOTE ]

I can not make sense of this. He knows you don't call with even aces, kings or queens, so he pushes everything and therefore you call with AKo. Presumably, you call with better hands as well, so how can he know you don't call when you do call? It smells like very circular logic to me.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm willing to sacriface $37.68 equity to cost Joe $341.5, because in the future it will be correct for him not to push as light. If in the future he folds his J6 in this spot I either get a walk, or call a short stacks push, with the same 60/40 edge, a result which will probably raise my equity by more than the $37.68 I lost in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the equity Joe loses incorporated into yours? If it is, you give up $38 to transfer equity from Joe to the other two guys, and then it seems odd to state that you spend $38 to give him a $341 equity loss, because you don't benefit anyway. You just move the equity around (unless you figure it's x% of that loss worth to you to not have the $341 in the hands of Joe but the other players who are weaker). If you do get a part of his equity loss, then your call shouldn't show negative expectations at all, should it?

If the above is the most drunken nonsense you ever heard, can someone very briefly explain why?

Thanks in advance,

Smurf

[/ QUOTE ]

Type

Correction

*I know that he knows that im not gonna call withOUT AA KK QQ etc... "

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

LOL, how can you fold here??
bigjoe is the sickest pusher, call call call

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

[ QUOTE ]
LOL, how can you fold here??
bigjoe is the sickest pusher, call call call

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the bump, very informative.

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

i challenge Suzzer and Devinlake to samurai sword fight to the death.

edit: you gotta sign the waiver

Re: Big call vs bigjoe2003, how bad is this really?
 

haha interesting thread. I guess this is what happens when you put a 2 good players against each other with quite some money on the line.

As has been stated multiple times in the thread.... the -$EV both of you will experience, will obviously be redistributed amongst the other players. If the other players are Z0MG UBER BigJoe players aswell, I guess it doesnt really matter. But if you got 2 donkey ass players left at the table, I think this call will be pretty bad as you'd be giving them equity which they dont deserve.

Anyhow.. its obviously bad for the both of you. Either live with the fact that you have to fold AKo here, or dont play BigJoe kind of players again. It's the nature of the SnG game, and may well be the death of the SnG tournaments when everybody gets his skill as high as both of you.

Oh and c'mon guys dont be angry at eachother and spite call and "challenge" eachother n stuff.. we all are so wealthy already, getting even more greedy and.. whats the right word, cocky/arrogant? seems disrespectful to the billions of people who struggle to keep themselves from hurting due to the hunger they have.