Re: 2007-08 North Carolina Tar Heels Basketball (San Antonio Here We C
 

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Hey man,

I gotta go to bed. And, unfortunately, I've picked a bad time to start this, as I'll probably be unavailable to properly discuss it tomorrow as well. But I will come back to it, because I think you haven't grasped what I'm trying to say -- which could easily be my fault -- and I think it's an interesting conversation, not just as it pertains to Carolina, but to these kinds of statistics in general. Maybe someone will pick up my case in the interim.

-McGee

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hah that's cool i'll be waiting [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] fwiw you probably got your point across, i'm probably just being a fanboy.

Re: 2007-08 North Carolina Tar Heels Basketball (San Antonio Here We C
 

I tend to agree with AcesMcGee's main point. I realize that the stats say that Carolina is a great defensive team in terms of point per possession allowed, but just simply watching games should tell you that we're not. I think we are a bit underrated defensively by the common fan, but (I hate saying this) Duke seems to be on another level defensively then we are. Part of that has to do with the pace we play and our inexperience last season. The fact that we can make that big stop now in a close game, something we struggled time and time again to do last year is already a big positive step in the right direction.

What I will disagree with is your reasoning for the losses to Gonzaga, Virginia Tech, and Maryland last season. The reason was lost is we had an inexperienced backcourt of Lawson/Ellington that had trouble containing dribble penetration from much older players. Gonzaga started Ravio (SR) and Pargo (SO with lots of PT as a frosh), VT started COllins (SR) and Dowdell (SR), while MD started Strawberry (SR) in the backcourt. These teams exploited Lawson and Ellington's inexperience and dribbled to the rim at will. I've seen a lot less of that (so far) this year which makes me think it was those two adjusting to college basketball as much as anything else.

Re: 2007-08 North Carolina Tar Heels Basketball (San Antonio Here We C
 

Aces,
There is a pretty big selection bias as you are picking games they lost and than explaining why that team showed UNC had a bad defense.

Re: 2007-08 North Carolina Tar Heels Basketball (San Antonio Here We C
 

still makes me sick UNC takes credit for beating OSU last year w/ Oden on the bench...go to hell Carolina, go to hell

Re: 2007-08 North Carolina Tar Heels Basketball (San Antonio Here We C
 

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still makes me sick UNC takes credit for beating OSU last year w/ Oden on the bench...go to hell Carolina, go to hell

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Please stop posting in this thread all you do is troll.

Re: 2007-08 North Carolina Tar Heels Basketball (San Antonio Here We C
 

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still makes me sick UNC takes credit for beating OSU last year w/ Oden on the bench...go to hell Carolina, go to hell

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Please stop posting in this thread all you do is troll.

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not trolling, just a Duke fan

Re: 2007-08 North Carolina Tar Heels Basketball (San Antonio Here We C
 

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still makes me sick UNC takes credit for beating OSU last year w/ Oden on the bench...go to hell Carolina, go to hell

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Are you really this retarded? Are we taking credit for dominating Oden? I don't really see what your point is. Go jerk off to pictures of Coach K in your own thread.

Re: 2007-08 North Carolina Tar Heels Basketball (San Antonio Here We C
 

FWIW, I think Aces is pretty spot on. Against many teams, UNC will be defensively overwhelming by virtue of sheer size and athletic talent. In terms of technical defensive excellence though, they are probably middle of the pack in the ACC. They are absolutely not on the level of a UCLA or even a squad like Texas Tech. So against teams that match up athletically, and can win individual matchups, their D will tend to struggle.

Re: 2007-08 North Carolina Tar Heels Basketball (San Antonio Here We C
 

I'm not sure I understand how UNC's points per possession allowed can be best in the ACC, but their "technical defensive excellence" is middle of the pack. Is there another, more important stat I'm missing, or does this go back to what the article was talking about--the lack of "gutsy-looking" (read: Dookish) D, floor-slapping, etc. I suppose you could have a team that allowed under 1 point per possession that still turned the ball over an incredible amount, or didn't rebound at all, which would kind of render the point average stat moot in terms of winning a ball game, but 1) it still wouldn't change the fact that this hypothetical team plays good defense, strictly speaking, and 2) at any rate, the above isn't true of UNC.

I do agree that UNC's defense, at this point in the season anyway, is inferior to some of the schools listed, esp. UCLA, who are scary good.

Re: 2007-08 North Carolina Tar Heels Basketball (San Antonio Here We C
 

sethy and aces both said something about how teams like Memphis and UCLA would exploit them. No [censored] they are two of the best teams in the country they exploit everyone. UNC isn't a great technical defensive team, but they are athletic and have good results. I wouldn't care if there defensive results were a byproduct of them hypnotizing the other team it is still good defense, even if there success is largely due to athleticism.

Re: 2007-08 North Carolina Tar Heels Basketball (San Antonio Here We C
 

You guys act like UCLA/Memphis don't have some major weaknesses.

Memphis's are pretty simple. They are not good inside scoring team. Their best post player, Dorsey, is mainly good for D only. He has been bad to pretty bad in a lot of big games against other big players namely Oden last year when he was terrible. They do have some really good wing players, but the 4 is also a weakness rather than a strength. Taggert, Dosier are both good players but they are both nothing special offensively. Defensively and from outside I think Memphis is a very good team. We also haven't seen if they can win big games on the road or neutral courts.

UCLA is a good team. They were exposed the last 2 years by Florida and exposed pretty handily in both NC games. Love has been really solid so far. And getting Collison back doesn't hurt at all. Defensively they are probally better. I haven't seen enough of their games this year and nobodies seen them with Collison much yet to know what they are capable of.

UNC I like their inside game and I think defensively they are pretty solid. My problem is other than Ellington who has been stellar this year, we don't have other good outside shooters. My other worry is what has happened to Tyler in the BYU/tOSU games in which he gets flustered and starts playing poorly or getting outmatched by other big men. I also worry about their 3 point D, they need to stay focused for 40 minutes. To win, UNC needs the big 3 to be healthy and for Thompson to step up. They also need solid contributions from the rest of the team including Green, Ginyard, etc.

Re: 2007-08 North Carolina Tar Heels Basketball (San Antonio Here We C
 

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sethy and aces both said something about how teams like Memphis and UCLA would exploit them. No [censored] they are two of the best teams in the country they exploit everyone. UNC isn't a great technical defensive team, but they are athletic and have good results. I wouldn't care if there defensive results were a byproduct of them hypnotizing the other team it is still good defense, even if there success is largely due to athleticism.

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I'm saying that when you just blow a portion of your schedule of the floor with vastly superior talent, this is going to skew your points per possession stat. For a number of reasons (largely related to the greater homogeneity of style and better and more balanced sample size), I think per pos stats are much more useful in analyzing NBA teams than NCAA.

My point in comparing UCLA's defense is that, as anesthetically unpleasing as it is, it does a pretty good job even in athletic mismatch situations (that it accomplishes largely through continuous uncalled fouling is an issue for a different day) - even against Florida with 3 lotto picks, UCLA's defense wasn't the issue so much as the offense, especially Afflalo, repeatedly crapping the bed.

Lawson likely sitting against UK
 

I'm glad to see Roy thinking long term here. No need to bring Ty back until he can play at 100% without re-injuring the ankle being an issue.

AP article here.

Re: 2007-08 North Carolina Tar Heels Basketball (San Antonio Here We C
 

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sethy and aces both said something about how teams like Memphis and UCLA would exploit them. No [censored] they are two of the best teams in the country they exploit everyone. UNC isn't a great technical defensive team, but they are athletic and have good results. I wouldn't care if there defensive results were a byproduct of them hypnotizing the other team it is still good defense, even if there success is largely due to athleticism.

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this is my point. no one is arguing that they are the most fundamentally sound defensive team. that doesn't mean they can't defend well. there are plenty of excellent of offensive players who are not fundamentally sound but get by on athletic ability and raw talent; i don't see why defense should be any different.

Re: 2007-08 North Carolina Tar Heels Basketball (San Antonio Here We C
 

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My point in comparing UCLA's defense is that, as anesthetically unpleasing as it is, it does a pretty good job even in athletic mismatch situations (that it accomplishes largely through continuous uncalled fouling is an issue for a different day) - even against Florida with 3 lotto picks, UCLA's defense wasn't the issue so much as the offense, especially Afflalo, repeatedly crapping the bed.

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naming one team w/better defense does not make unc a weak defensive team.

Re: 2007-08 North Carolina Tar Heels Basketball (San Antonio Here We C
 

sick, lawson is starting

Re: 2007-08 North Carolina Tar Heels Basketball (San Antonio Here We C
 

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sick, lawson is starting

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Nice to see the team with the full roster. Great contributions from Frasor and Green off the bench. Stepheson keeps on impressing. GG Rupp Arena.

Re: 2007-08 North Carolina Tar Heels Basketball (San Antonio Here We C
 

We had about an 8 minute stretch where we showed how good we can be for the first time this season against a halfway decent team.

I realize Hansbrough gives out a lot of punishment, but the last two games, the refs have been swallowing the whistles as he gets hacked everytime he's in the paint. The problem with Tyler right now is that he simply can't pass out of double teams and hasn't improved on this much, if at all, in two+ seasons. The fact that he has 3 assists in 200+ minutes of playing time is a troubling stat.

I'm concerned about what Deon has shown so far this year when I thought he was poised for a monster year. Fat Deon > Skinny Deon at this point.

Finally, the contributions from our perimeter players have been a very good sign so far. Frasor his three nice threes today and Danny Green is becoming a legitimate possibility for an All Conference spot. If the role players outside of the Big 3 (Tyler, Ty, Wayne) continue to play well, it makes our already stellar offense that much better.

Re: 2007-08 North Carolina Tar Heels Basketball (San Antonio Here We C
 

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My point in comparing UCLA's defense is that, as anesthetically unpleasing as it is, it does a pretty good job even in athletic mismatch situations (that it accomplishes largely through continuous uncalled fouling is an issue for a different day) - even against Florida with 3 lotto picks, UCLA's defense wasn't the issue so much as the offense, especially Afflalo, repeatedly crapping the bed.

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naming one team w/better defense does not make unc a weak defensive team.

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I'm not claiming there are weak, I'm claiming that theyaren't elite, and that their weakness (relatively) is and will be their defense. This doesn't seem controversial.