Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's totally unethical, just like cheating on your taxes, and just about everyone who's successful is unethical.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha, so true.

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol at the people debating the effectiveness of tag teaming when the question being asked is that of ethics.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, obviously the two are related: if tagteaming has no effect or a detrimental effect then it would be really weird to say it's unethical.

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

Long been established there is no one player per hand rule online.

Coaching is so standard nowadays, real time sweat is a great learning tool. I frequently chop action with a friend and talk strategy for an hour session.

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

i dont think people should do it. and when they do i t just makes them look incompetent.

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol at the people debating the effectiveness of tag teaming when the question being asked is that of ethics.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, obviously the two are related: if tagteaming has no effect or a detrimental effect then it would be really weird to say it's unethical.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. It's all about intent, and I'm pretty sure you think it would be advantageous, or else you wouldn't be doing it. BTW not calling you out but rather just making a poimt.

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

TonyBliar: flip??
DaEvils: nah no flip
DaEvils: lost my last one
TonyBliar: wow
TonyBliar: pussy
DaEvils: fine
DaEvils: flip
TonyBliar: u going down
TonyBliar: nh
TonyBliar: moron
TonyBliar: wow
DaEvils: ding ding
TonyBliar: fu
TonyBliar: u should stick to rapping
TonyBliar: u better at that than at poker
TonyBliar: flipping is for
TonyBliar: for noone
TonyBliar: except u
TonyBliar: i shoulda practive avoidance
TonyBliar: fu

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

wonder how much EV good players could get from "renting" known very bad players accounts.

regarding people allowed to have multiple accts. like PA, I think this is a very big advantage for them. You only have a player pool of so many people at the very large stakes. You play these people often and u learn their tendancies and adjust.

It's an advantage you can't have in live play, unless you're going to get plastic surgery, or wear a halloween mask at the table. You can't look at peoples faces online, all you have is their name, too important of an item to allow people to change all the time imo.

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

DaEvils = Prah?

Deny or confirm

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, I think that in poker, I'd prefer to play a headsup match against 3 people of equal strength colluding, than one player.

This is very pronounced in blitz chess, when working together with 2-3 people, assuming all are relatively equal strength, generally produces worse results than just playing normally because all the differing viewpoints can be really distracting. At least this has always been my experience.

Whenever I have played poker with someone watching me, it drives me completely insane when they try to give advice that's contrary to what I'm about to do. It's simply impossible to focus when you only have so much time to make a decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet if you took a group of three very strong chess players who were close friends, worked on each others' games a lot, and had a lot of experience playing together, that they would play better as a team than individually (assuming this was some version of chess where taking longer on every decision didn't hurt you).

I think, ethically speaking, that it is somewhat shady, but not that bad. I think people can generally assume it's going on at nosebleed stakes, so it isn't super dishonest or anything.

I think what PA does is significantly worse. These guys are still playing on their own accounts, and the owner of the account still has the final say on a given action.

[/ QUOTE ]

When referring to collusion in chess I meant speed chess, where you have about 5 minutes per game. This is because this is the common form of Internet chess so if you are at someones house and want to play together, you play a few quick games and you realize that you basically suck playing with each other's input. In a slow game it would be hugely beneficial.

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

Jman got caught out the other week too doing it, typing his hand into what he thought was MSN/AIM etc. so the questiony ou should be asking is who isn't doing it

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is true then why hasnt he been banned?? And what site was this on?

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

b/c its not against the rules?

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

[ QUOTE ]
b/c its not against the rules?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why, when JJProb multiaccounted it wasnt a problem because everyone else was doing it, now we have twenty HSNL opinions against one player it is ok - because everyone else agrees with it. Once they stop agreeing to it like when Ansky found out he was playing a ringer it wont be ok and all these sheep will change their mind

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's totally unethical, just like cheating on your taxes, and just about everyone who's successful is unethical.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious, are you against poker coaching as well? That seems to be the same thing and is very widespread and encouraged.

WoT

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
b/c its not against the rules?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why, when JJProb multiaccounted it wasnt a problem because everyone else was doing it, now we have twenty HSNL opinions against one player it is ok - because everyone else agrees with it. Once they stop agreeing to it like when Ansky found out he was playing a ringer it wont be ok and all these sheep will change their mind

[/ QUOTE ]

k if you back up like 74 steps and read my post in context i was answering the question "why hasnt he been banned?" My answer is clearly correct.

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

[ QUOTE ]
b/c its not against the rules?

[/ QUOTE ]

So he was not colluding?

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
b/c its not against the rules?

[/ QUOTE ]

So he was not colluding?

[/ QUOTE ]

wasting your breath, first rule of 2p2 thou shall not argue with the HSNL regs

though futuredoc is a losing player

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
b/c its not against the rules?

[/ QUOTE ]

So he was not colluding?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol it was at a headsup table. who even knows what he was typing, everyones quick to say he was getting advice on the current hand.

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
b/c its not against the rules?

[/ QUOTE ]

So he was not colluding?

[/ QUOTE ]

wasting your breath, first rule of 2p2 thou shall not argue with the HSNL regs

though futuredoc is a losing player

[/ QUOTE ]

a) you clearly dont know what colluding means

b)



http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...5/headshot.jpg


shhhhhh

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

in the youtube video with the brownies, u see whitelime and krantz playing together againts perkyshmerky HU 200/400, so why u all so surprised about it ? all those "teams" are playing together these big games, even if it is againts "donks".
i just don't understand why they so afraid of playing againts PA, they afraid to play him even if they are 2-3-4 people vs one very good ?

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

[ QUOTE ]
in the youtube video with the brownies, u see whitelime and krantz playing together againts perkyshmerky HU 200/400, so why u all so surprised about it ? all those "teams" are playing together these big games, even if it is againts "donks".
i just don't understand why they so afraid of playing againts PA, they afraid to play him even if they are 2-3-4 people vs one very good ?

[/ QUOTE ]

they do play him sometimes, im pretty sure there's a hand in HSNL right now that Krantz played vs PA, genius played him recently too i think. Its just that game selection is super important HU.

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

[ QUOTE ]
they do play him sometimes, im pretty sure there's a hand in HSNL right now that Krantz played vs PA, genius played him recently too i think. Its just that game selection is super important HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

i meant that this is a huge advantage for them playing as a team, againts 1, in "heads up" match, which supposed to be 1-on-1, and not 2-on-1 (maybe even more), and it's not like it is 2, 0.25/0.50 players,againts a 300/600 player.
it's like putting 2 of the best 20 chess players againts 1 Kasparov, i'm pretty sure they will put money in, if that kind of match was offered, and will beat him together.

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's totally unethical, just like cheating on your taxes, and just about everyone who's successful is unethical.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious, are you against poker coaching as well? That seems to be the same thing and is very widespread and encouraged.

WoT

[/ QUOTE ]

this imo is a good post.

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

[ QUOTE ]
i meant that this is a huge advantage for them playing as a team, againts 1, in "heads up" match, which supposed to be 1-on-1, and not 2-on-1 (maybe even more), and it's not like it is 2, 0.25/0.50 players,againts a 300/600 player.
it's like putting 2 of the best 20 chess players againts 1 Kasparov, i'm pretty sure they will put money in, if that kind of match was offered, and will beat him together.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, but dude, it's antonius.

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

just to be clear its not like they would put whitelime the super lag in and then tag fwf the super nit in for a completely different style. It was for the duration of most of the matches if advice was being given so it translated into a constant playing style if that helps.


And this goes on alot at high stakes so you should expect it. Not to say everyone does it. But its known krantz and whitelime live together so expect it and if you dont like it dont play. I think where it gets unethical is if I gave krantz my ahnuld account to play when noone would have any idea.

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

and yeah, what do you guys think poker coaching is? Sweating? same thing

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

jesus let this thread die, i get so tilted see "DaEvila" among the top thread sin this forumtitlitltiltititlt

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

[ QUOTE ]
and yeah, what do you guys think poker coaching is? Sweating? same thing

[/ QUOTE ]

both of these things are completely different than having a superteam of opinions

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

it seems this is just an inherent risk of playing poker on the internet. when you sit down your agreeing to play a name not a face, and you have no idea who is behind the name, end of story. you dont like it dont put yourself in the position. seems fairly simple.

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

ahnuld,

"I think where it gets unethical is if I gave krantz my ahnuld account to play when noone would have any idea."

If it's OK to play as a team, it's OK to play as someone else. Simple as that.

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

what if you explicitly stated to your opponent that you have krantz and whitelime next to you and helping you? Im not saying that they put out that disclaimer, but its no secret and most of their opponents do know.

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

[ QUOTE ]
i actually have a pretty funny story about 'conferencing' or two or three people playing on the same name, but the world will never know..

[/ QUOTE ]
CLICK IT BACK

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

[ QUOTE ]
what if you explicitly stated to your opponent that you have krantz and whitelime next to you and helping you? Im not saying that they put out that disclaimer, but its no secret and most of their opponents do know.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah esp by now everyone knows that its a strong possibility whenever they play against one of their 3 accts

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i actually have a pretty funny story about 'conferencing' or two or three people playing on the same name, but the world will never know..

[/ QUOTE ]
CLICK IT BACK

[/ QUOTE ]

holllurrrrrrrrr, such ownage

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

I was open about it in chat because I think there's nothing wrong with it.

It's within the rules which shapes a reasonable expectation of risk of this happening when one plays online. I've been duped into playing numerous high-stakes players I wouldn't probably play if I knew who they were before and I never really get upset: it's just a part of high-stakes online poker and you just have to be vigilant sometimes.

The coaching argument is one I've always made and I think is very relevant: if you're fine with the very widespread practice of coaching, then you should be fine with conference playing. In fact, during coaching a player who often has a certain image plays different from his standard plays giving him the advantage of reads on his opponents while having them operate under flawed assumptions about the student's game whereas during conference playing the style of play is consistent so at least your opponents are having accurate reads of your patterns and the tendencies they're responding to are at least actually operative in the inter-player dynamic.

Really weird to me that lots of people are flipping their [censored] over this but the hundreds of posts in which people say "I coach" (I do coach by the way) don't invoke such uproar.

I think if this were 5/10 and everybody found out that some okay but not great regs sit in a room together and conference play nobody would flip out. But this was 300/600 and good players talking so all of a sudden some people are quick to start a scandal. But stakes and quality of the players involved really shouldn't affect whether or not it's ethical.

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was open about it in chat because I think there's nothing wrong with it.

It's within the rules which shapes a reasonable expectation of risk of this happening when one plays online. I've been duped into playing numerous high-stakes players I wouldn't probably play if I knew who they were before and I never really get upset: it's just a part of high-stakes online poker and you just have to be vigilant sometimes.

The coaching argument is one I've always made and I think is very relevant: if you're fine with the very widespread practice of coaching, then you should be fine with conference playing. In fact, during coaching a player who often has a certain image plays different from his standard plays giving him the advantage of reads on his opponents while having them operate under flawed assumptions about the student's game whereas during conference playing the style of play is consistent so at least your opponents are having accurate reads of your patterns and the tendencies they're responding to are at least actually operative in the inter-player dynamic.

Really weird to me that lots of people are flipping their [censored] over this but the hundreds of posts in which people say "I coach" (I do coach by the way) don't invoke such uproar.

I think if this were 5/10 and everybody found out that some okay but not great regs sit in a room together and conference play nobody would flip out. But this was 300/600 and good players talking so all of a sudden some people are quick to start a scandal. But stakes and quality of the players involved really shouldn't affect whether or not it's ethical.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree w/ this.

I have gotten pissed in the past when I played someone who I thought was someone else... but I coach, and w/ all the ambiguity, it just seems that there really is no precedent whatsoever.

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

I THINK THIS IS ABSOLUTE [censored] AND WILL BE TALKING TO FULL TILT ABOUT IT

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

Hmmm..3 huge egos arguing and fighting about how to play every hand on every street. Where's the edge?

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
they do play him sometimes, im pretty sure there's a hand in HSNL right now that Krantz played vs PA, genius played him recently too i think. Its just that game selection is super important HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

i meant that this is a huge advantage for them playing as a team, againts 1, in "heads up" match, which supposed to be 1-on-1, and not 2-on-1 (maybe even more), and it's not like it is 2, 0.25/0.50 players,againts a 300/600 player.
it's like putting 2 of the best 20 chess players againts 1 Kasparov, i'm pretty sure they will put money in, if that kind of match was offered, and will beat him together.

[/ QUOTE ]


This isn't right. I don't know how Krantz etc. operate but for the most part deomacritc teamwork blows. You're better off with one clear leader. This is especially true when you have to make quick decisions.

It's funny you mention chess and Kasparov. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasparov_versus_The_World

I think people playing on other people's accounts/changing usernames is a much bigger issue for HU.

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

In my opinion, only someone young and not that smart is going to try to debate that this sort of collusion is unethical with poker players who insist that it totally is ethical. It's very obviously NOT ethical, case closed.

Re: Ethicality of High Stakes HU - DaEvila
 

if it is known by the opposing player that he is up against the 3 of them, then what is the problem? If they hide the fact that they are working together then I think it would be wrong.