Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

uh... so many players out there at NL100 and below suck so bad, and clearly have taken no time to learn the game it's hard for me to believe that the fish would just go out of their way to learn how to short stack.

I mean is a 32/4/1.25 really going to suddenly say 'hey, i've been playing poker on the internet for three months without a clue or reading even the most basic strategy- but i'm going to take a huge amount of energy to learn an unexploitable SS strategy similar to the most mindnumbing aspects of SNG poker'

Alternatively, will a bunch of shortstacks really be more of a buzzkill to the fish than the now 24-tabling nitswarm on pokerstars now?

Or is it more likely that some will read a SS strategy thread, and missapply it badly and exploitably?

And BTW- GOOD short stack poker is hard to learn. I think endgame SNG strategy is the closest thing to it in terms of math and precision needed to turn a profit against players with a clue.

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
GOOD short stack poker is hard to learn. I think endgame SNG strategy is the closest thing to it in terms of math and precision needed to turn a profit against players with a clue.

[/ QUOTE ]

SS poker is easy to play, and I lol'd at the person wondering if proper SS play can profit, 2+/100. I played a 10K hand session at 2/4nl on stars and was easily greater than 2+/100 and ran bad during the time. I could write the strategy on the back of a business card but only a decent player could utilize it. I beg of MT2R. please go no further with this, But I would have no problem with him coaching people privately for a typical coaching rate. It would def make the games less profitable if more people were "Correctly" shortstacking. I have no problem with the mass of idiots that attempt to SS now and are unsuccessful.

I will take bets for any amount that I can profitably SS the 2/4 NL games on stars for any where between 10K-100K hands. and be greater than 2BB/100

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally I wouldn't mind if a table was all short stackers bar me, you could just run them over.

[/ QUOTE ]

Laugh Out Loud. Seriously.

This biggest no-limit hold 'em myth: big stacks can "bully" the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

nice, I thought you left the forums never to post again? When I say that I wouldn't mind playing all short stacks is because I think I am +ev vs their strat, after seeing how they play and reading posts here. You aren't as such bullying them but I would steal ruthlessly from them and limit their FE.

I don't know maybe I'm wrong and MT2R posting information will destroy the game, but the game will eventually evolve anyway. A short stacker replacing a rock really doesnt make much difference in the greater scheme of things.

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally I wouldn't mind if a table was all short stackers bar me, you could just run them over.

[/ QUOTE ]

Laugh Out Loud. Seriously.

This biggest no-limit hold 'em myth: big stacks can "bully" the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

nice, I thought you left the forums never to post again? When I say that I wouldn't mind playing all short stacks is because I think I am +ev vs their strat, after seeing how they play and reading posts here. You aren't as such bullying them but I would steal ruthlessly from them and limit their FE.

I don't know maybe I'm wrong and MT2R posting information will destroy the game, but the game will eventually evolve anyway. A short stacker replacing a rock really doesnt make much difference in the greater scheme of things.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're basically just claiming that you play better short stack poker than any other possible short stack strategy. That just isn't possible - best case against a bunch of short stackers playing near optimally is you can play the same as strategy.

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
You aren't as such bullying them but I would steal ruthlessly from them and limit their FE.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you steal ruthlessly you're going to be raising lots of marginal (or worse) hands. To limit their Fold Equity, you're going to be calling shoves with these marginal hands? You can't do both.

If you play great shortstack strategy against 8 other great shortstacks, you're all going to lose rather substantially to the rake.

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
I will take bets for any amount that I can profitably SS the 2/4 NL games on stars for any where between 10K-100K hands. and be greater than 2BB/100

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt you could do it over 100K hands, but not strongly enough to bet on it. If you did, it would be because you're better at deep stacking than your opponents, though.

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

ok, I guess I'm probably a tad over confident with dealing with short stacks as I probably haven't played any great ones, limp folding is not smart. But what your saying also proves my point, if this thread has as much impact as some people are worried that it will, it will end up with SSing being non viable. Pokers dynamic is always changing and as one strategy becomes popular a counter strategy will be more profitable. The people that are worried about change should embrace it, it gives you a chance to learn more about the game and to exploit strategies.

@Pokerboy, sorry I reread my post and it sounded a bit harsh, you were one of the first posters that I read when I originally joined these forums. So yea I wasn't trying to piss you off or anything but I was actually wondering what happened to you (:

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

The reason that shortstackers are so secretive is that the strategy relies on a limited set of calculations for a relatively narrow set of situations, and lends itself to fairly mechanical play. The calculations are simple but non-obvious enough to the typical player that their exposure lends the strategy to easy implementation and exploitation. For shortstacking, once you learn to play it or counter, there's really not a lot you can do wrong.

Compare this to strategy discussion about full stack NLH, of which there is an overabundance available to any player who chooses to seek it. The situations and factors in NLH are so diverse and nebulous that exposure of 'secrets' is relatively safe since most players do not have the intelligence, judgement, or discipline to apply what they learn, if they bother to learn it all.

There's really no big "secret" to shortstacking that someone with the willingness to dink around with pokerstove and make a few empirical generalizations about ranges and betting patterns couldn't figure out with a week or two of work.

I've been shortstacking since before the Ed Miller book came out, though I started in live games. I realized early that as a novice I simply was not versed or experienced enough to play in a game where mistakes can be so devestating. I had to do a lot of work to determine how to balance not offering implied odds on the one hand, with playing enough to not lose money to the rake and blinds. I did fairly well and still do.

I come from a background in the humanities and was not a math guy at all when I started to figure all this out. Doing so though has made my knowledge of the math of poker much more sophisiticated and has helped me to hone my deepstack cash and tournaments skills, which I used to make a living, full and part-time, in Las Vegas and online for four years. So it's not true that a shortstacker has to be a bad player or one-dimensional.

It's certainly true that if you stop at shortstacking, you are stunting your growth as a player, but if you take it seriously and follow the math, it will lead you to conclusions about poker in general which lead you to a better all around game.

I am pretty much focused on shortstacking currently, because it allows me to multitable virtually without table limit, eke out a small profit, rake in tons of FPPs, all while watching TV, and certainly not working a hump job.

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's certainly true that if you stop at shortstacking, you are stunting your growth as a player, but if you take it seriously and follow the math, it will lead you to conclusions about poker in general which lead you to a better all around game.I am pretty much focused on shortstacking currently, because it allows me to multitable virtually without table limit, eke out a small profit, rake in tons of FPPs, all while watching TV, and certainly not working a hump job.

[/ QUOTE ]

your name says it all. But here is some more deep down truth. If you truly understand all that you type here, you could be making much more playing a fullstack if your BR is not an issue.

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's certainly true that if you stop at shortstacking, you are stunting your growth as a player, but if you take it seriously and follow the math, it will lead you to conclusions about poker in general which lead you to a better all around game.I am pretty much focused on shortstacking currently, because it allows me to multitable virtually without table limit, eke out a small profit, rake in tons of FPPs, all while watching TV, and certainly not working a hump job.

[/ QUOTE ]

your name says it all. But here is some more deep down truth. If you truly understand all that you type here, you could be making much more playing a fullstack if your BR is not an issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

I highlighted the part you seemed to miss.

If he's playing 10 tables at a time, then he's seeing 300 hands an hour. Doesn't take long to make Super Nova that way if poker is his full time job. And he's probably playing more than 10 tables at a time.

In all probability rake back & bonuses make up the majority of his income. The 2bb/hr just maintains his BR.

Oh, did I just give away one of the Illuminati's major "secrets?" [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's certainly true that if you stop at shortstacking, you are stunting your growth as a player, but if you take it seriously and follow the math, it will lead you to conclusions about poker in general which lead you to a better all around game.I am pretty much focused on shortstacking currently, because it allows me to multitable virtually without table limit, eke out a small profit, rake in tons of FPPs, all while watching TV, and certainly not working a hump job.

[/ QUOTE ]

your name says it all. But here is some more deep down truth. If you truly understand all that you type here, you could be making much more playing a fullstack if your BR is not an issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

I highlighted the part you seemed to miss.

If he's playing 10 tables at a time, then he's seeing 300 hands an hour. Doesn't take long to make Super Nova that way if poker is his full time job. And he's probably playing more than 10 tables at a time.

In all probability rake back & bonuses make up the majority of his income. The 2bb/hr just maintains his BR.

Oh, did I just give away one of the Illuminati's major "secrets?" [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

10tables shud b about 645hands/hr

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

ummmm....I do about twice that many hands per hour

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

JUICE

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

[ QUOTE ]

I don't know maybe I'm wrong and MT2R posting information will destroy the game, but the game will eventually evolve anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]
agreed--the game will evolve anyway
[ QUOTE ]
A short stacker replacing a rock really doesnt make much difference in the greater scheme of things.

[/ QUOTE ]

MDMA once posted well about how ss'ers are different from rocks
here is what he said:
[ QUOTE ]
comparing shortstacking to being a supertight rock is really, really retarded. Shortstacking ABUSES A INCOMPABILITY OF FULLSTACKED AND SHORTSTACKED POKER AND THE TWO DIFFERENT OPTIMAL RANGES IN THESE. Not surprisingly, this of course only hurts the fullstack and not the shortstack, since only the fullstack has to actually care about two ranges. A nit-rock however, does nothing of the kind, and will LOSE in the end if you just play better than him.

Shortstacking is ultimately better than ANY OTHER FORM OF PLAYING BECAUSE OF AN INHERENT FLAW IN PLAYING TWO DIFFERENT STACK SIZES AT THE SAME TIME AT THE SAME TABLE.

You shortstackers never ever mention this, you use words as "legal", "different way of playing" etc, but what you not realize is that it is not your SKILL that wins you money in the games, it is the fact that shortstacks has a big inherent advantage that IS IMPOSSIBLE TO OVERCOME IN TODAYS SYSTEM.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personally I wouldn't mind if a table was all short stackers bar me, you could just run them over.

[/ QUOTE ]

Laugh Out Loud. Seriously.

This biggest no-limit hold 'em myth: big stacks can "bully" the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL I remember playing live 2/5 with a $1500 after cleaning a couple donkeys out when some dude walks by and sits down and says"o we have a chip leader guys, hes gonna try and push us around now".... I find that the biggest struggle for me playing live is to keep my laughter to a minimum when people talk at the table =)

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

o yeah a couple points to be made.

1. i hate shortstackers but respect them
2. if the game gets over run we will basically have a table selection war where full stack players will imediately leave talbes with to many shortstackers eventually leading to tables full of shortstackers where they have no edgy over each other and the rake-rakeback will barely worth their time.
3. a sight could make 40bb min where only full stack players will play.
4. 6 max will become more popular becuase its much easier to hop around on tables and avoid shorstackers (thats what i do i hate 6 max ssers)


I do wanna say that ss'ers who currently make money... im sorry that you suck at poker but please dont ruin the good thing you have now by trying normalize and expand your "STYLE". It will only end in your demise. that is all.

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

ummmm....6max is better for shorting than fullring

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

But the blinds will eat you alive! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
ummmm....6max is better for shorting than fullring

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes my head explode. I cannot for the life of me figure out how you can SS 6-max profitably - them psychos won't be lying back and taking it, and surely they figure out the plays pretty damn quick.... Or I guess it could be such that, EVEN IF THEY KNEW YOUR PLAYS/RANGES, THEY STILL COULDN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT? Am I getting warm?


I think I'm focussed way too much on a Miller-type approach, when in fact there's some sort of optimal/game-theory approach.

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
ummmm....6max is better for shorting than fullring

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I would think that, with the blinds coming around so frequently, it would eat up your winnings.

Hmm... Let's see... What would make MT2R say that shorting at 6-max is more profitable...

Shortstacking is a game of hand range vs hand range and denying implied odds. Full stack 6-max is all about position and aggression. Loose & aggressive opponents play a wider range of hands. The shortie, then, could open up his range and still have an equity advantage. (I guess this is where Pokerstove comes in handy.)

Plus, the shortie doesn't fear aggression. When he enters a pot, he intends to get all in. 3-bet him pre-flop? He just shoves. Re-raise his c-bet? He just shoves. You can't "play chicken" with him.

Interesting. I've always told people in the Beginner forum to short stack at FR. I'll have to tell them to go annoy the 6-max players from now on.

Personally, I find the 6-max snobs far more annoying than short stackers. They deserve more shorties at their tables, IMO.

So, what are likely ranges, broken down by position, for 6-max players to be raising with? From there, it shouldn't be too hard to use Poker Stove and come up with a range of hands that has positive all-in equity.

Here's a little jump off point for the people who are arsed to do the math - I have a buddy who's a full time 6-max pro and has his own blog/strategy site. He wrote this cool article a few months ago:

Pillaging Short-Handed 6-max No Limit

If we use his starting hand ranges, then what are some positive equity hand ranges to play back with?

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

now you guys are getting it

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

The last 2 pages of this thread have actually been really interesting. I think that even full stack players could get alot out of reading this stuff even if they weren't going to short stack. Enlighten us further Mt2R

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

now, we can begin

LESSON ONE: The Resteal

I remember distinctly when I took the leap from being a rakeback/bonus shortstacking pro to making a real profit. The credit actually goes to 2p2 poster Vanveen. There was a thread with Grimstarr complaining about hit and runners. The amazing thing is this thread turned into a theoretical and actual goldmine for those that could read what was being implied. I wasn't that smart, but did find the starting block. This is what Vanveen wrote
[ QUOTE ]
Helpful hint, cero. I challenge you to outline your obvious adjustment that both nullifies the shortstack's edge and maintains a style of play most would consider worthy of the descriptors 'loose' and 'aggressive'. The way I use those words, it is the very nature of LAG play to overplay the blinds in an attempt to induce costly overadjustments or distort information well enough that the LAG gains a greater edge when the pots and bets get bigger. In the process the LAG makes himself susceptible to a shortstack concerned only with pot size, pot equity vs. easily estimated hand ranges, folding equity vs. easily estimated hand ranges, and simple flop situations w/pot sizes that are usually within a very small range. The only way to reduce the edge a shortstack can have is by playing tighter and less aggressively, almost to the point where I really doubt you're reaching the threshold required to get the adjustments you want and need.

And I don't understand how a shortstack's cards are any more face-up than a LAG's or how you're going to force a numerate shortstack to make ill-advised committment raises. We're dealing with %s - LAG raises 28% of hands from the CO. He will call a shove w/x% of hands in his range. He will fold y%. Do some math, figure out what hands we should be shoving. If we're really ambitious we can analyse flops and maybe just call sometimes. Tedious, but fairly easy. If LAG shows capacity to adjust we estimate adustment %s. HINT: Nearly everyone at six-max tables is raising too often and just dumping money to players w/<30bb (do the math w/availale database!) who can work a calculator and move their slider bar. If they stopped raising that often the games would change considerably and LAGs would have a smaller edge (as would everyone because the information being given would be PURER and more amenable to analysis). That is a fact.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ding Ding Ding

6max and fullring no-limit has come to be dominated by players that are very aggressive preflop. This is fine in a 100+BB stack game as position, aggression, hand reading, etc play such a huge role and building pots early helps in stacking opponents. However, it doesn't work when someone can use the blunt tool of the all-in preflop to destroy the position and later aggression. Suddenly, the shortie is the aggressor and forces the original raiser to know the math of hand v range.

Vanveen lead me to crack out the excel and pokerstove (or SNGwizard)...whatever works and see what hands are +ev to push verse different villains.

It all became a math equation since it became a one-street game.

let's put it all in terms of blinds
I had to find which hands had a positive expectation, while the variables at play were the opponent's initial raise size, the effective stack size, the opponent's initial raise range, and what the opponent would call with out of that range.

it works out to something like this:
f(R+1.5) + c(w((E+1.5)-1/20(2E+1.5))-l(E)) > 0
where
f = % of time initial raiser folds to push
c = % of time initial raiser calls push
R = Open raise size of initial raiser
w = win % of pushing hand v initial raiser's calling range
l = loss % of pushing hand v initial raiser's calling range

Basically, those terms account for the money won when the inital raiser folds to the push and the amount won win the push hand beats out the calling hand outweighing the amount lost when the calling hand beats the push hand.

Here, the action of the table dictates the initial raise size and the effective stack. The shortstacker must estimate the initial opening range and the calling range.

NOTE: this is assuming a BB and SB and a 5% rake. All of this stuff can change as well as there being overcallers...yummy!

the solution is to simplify for w and find out what win pct your hand needs verse a villain calling range.


w > ( (c-1)(R+1.5)/c + E) / (19E/10 +57/40)

Luckily, there are some good ways to find a villain's initial raising range. Many 2p2ers have given it away for free in posts. I recall that I looked at a thread where punter 11235 asked the MSNL forum to help him play 22/19 or something like that. Big Jim and AZK came through with some dynamite responses for hand ranges. In addition, there are numerous written sources that give away ranges as well.

Here are some
13.1% Common NIT range up front from forum posts 66+,ATo+,A9s+, KT+, Qjs
15.8% Common TAG range up front from forum posts 22+, A2s+, Kts+, T9s+, AT+, KQ
19.8 Tight players cut/but range from sources 66+, BW, A8+, K9
28.8 Very common stealing range
22,+A2+,K9o+,K8s+,Q9s+,Q9o+,J9o+,J8s+,T8s+,T9o,65s +,75s+

So, if we can guesstimate that someone steals with the 28.8% range, but will only call a push with the 19.8% range, we know what hands to push that are +ev.

For example, our effective stack is 20BBs. The initial raiser uses the 28.8% range for stealing and opens up 3BBs. If our previous play with the player makes us think he'll call with teh 19.8% range earlier, it's +ev to push 55+, A8s+, KJs+, A9o+, KJo+ (yes, I've done the math on all of these things).

This is the simplest scenario. Things get much more complicated with overcallers and players acting behind you and whatnot. However, this is the root of the most powerful tool. You still have to estimate opponent raising and calling ranges. Your opponents will adjust these over time playing with you. However, you'll successfully negate and profit from one of the full stacks big weapons--preflop aggression.

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

one ends up with pretty charts like this one
for the 28.8% steal range and the 19.8% calling ranges listed above

Effective stack listed, than initial raise size, than the positive range to push

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1...tof28p8no1.png

I 'blacked' out a mnemonic device name I gave to the hand range

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

obviously, these can be done for a myriad of situations.....I have done it and you can as well

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

future lessons

*It doesn't have to be a 2-street game
*opening from the small blind
*The effective 2-street move (no it doesn't have to be a 2-street game, but sometimes it is real beneficial to make it such)
and more

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

not also that with the ranges listed above, I'm showing exploitive charts

I highly recommend the discussion in the latest book Kill Everyone on exploitive verse equilibrium play. One can easily get to equilibrium solutions for initial raise ranges independent of the calling ranges.

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

Nice start.

I think defining a particular villain's call range to be the most difficult. Some are more stubborn than others, but , to me, there isn't a good HUD stat that helps me set the call range.

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
f(R+1.5) + c(w((E+1.5)-1/20(2E+1.5))-l(E)) > 0
where
f = % of time initial raiser folds to push
c = % of time initial raiser calls push
R = Open raise size of initial raiser
w = win % of pushing hand v initial raiser's calling range
l = loss % of pushing hand v initial raiser's calling range


[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like I'm watching some bad WW II movie.

"Yu hev zee sekrit foemoola? May I zee it?"

BTW, if the 2+2 forum server crashes tonight and MT2R never posts again, I promise I'll never buy in for less than the max...

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
one ends up with pretty charts like this one
for the 28.8% steal range and the 19.8% calling ranges listed above

Effective stack listed, than initial raise size, than the positive range to push

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1...tof28p8no1.png

I 'blacked' out a mnemonic device name I gave to the hand range

[/ QUOTE ]

That's almost exactly what my 6max re-steal chart looks like. Math is freaky like that. I didn't pull the ranges from 2p2 posts though. I (and a friend of mine with whom I collaborated generalized from several hundred thousand datamined hands.

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

I'm so glad that I waded through the first half of this thread. I won't be SSing anytime soon, but I think this will give me a good basis of how to start learning how to counter this strategy.

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

I have 2 questions.

1. Serious question. This sounds awefully like a push/fold application of the ICM-based SNG strategy. However, SNGs are geared towards winning top spot in a fixed prize pool (thus dealing in chip equity). How's this applicable to the cash game with unlimited buy-ins?
2. Silly question. Let's say you start as a SS with 20 BBs. using this push/fold strategy you double-up and the double-up again. You're no longer a SS. Do you leave the table and go play somewhere else?

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

alex thats called ratholing and people hate it, in fact I think its the main reason people hate short stackers. When I Short stacked clearing the stars bonus I would buy to full after doubling up I hated playing mid stack poker.

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

dude, wtf are you doing?

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

ooops

forgot E = effective stack size in the formula above

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nice start.

I think defining a particular villain's call range to be the most difficult. Some are more stubborn than others, but , to me, there isn't a good HUD stat that helps me set the call range.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep...that just comes from experience as it is extreme from individual to individual how they will respond to shortstackers

this brings up the equilibrium solution

the graph and example I should had to do with exploitive solutions--trying to maximize verse a particular opponent

however, one can just come up with a bland equilibrium solution that will be +ev verse any calling range

play around in pokerstove and find the hands that work no matter the villain calling range

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
dude, wtf are you doing?

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that this response is only found in short-stacking threads is amusing.

Any strategy post is giving away free info about how to play better poker. This is the same IMO.

Short-stacking is no different IMO than playing like 10/4 or 8/2 or whatever some of the super nits out there play. You just need to adapt.


In relation to the short-stacking strategy, I can easily see how ss'ing 6max is more profitable as the ranges people use are wider.

In FR, most of the "good" short-stackers are getting it in pf only with like TT+/AQ+ because raising ranges are more easily defined IMO. In 6max, you need to raise more to at least stay with the blinds -> larger raising ranges -> more EV to push a wider range against a possible steal.

A lot of SS strategy can be applied to or taken from MTT strategy, since very rarely will players have more than 50BB in a pot later in a tournament and you need to be able to balance ranges and re-steal if you want to be at least a decent MTT'er.

Your analysis seems very interesting MT2R. I will check it out over break after I finish my 15 page paper..woohoo

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

lol donkaments

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

MT2R: You're a [censored] idiot. I'm sick of you idiots posting info about shortstacking to try and get attention. You're not good. You're not cool. You're probably not even a winning shortstacker at decent limits. Shut. the. [censored]. up.



Kursoh is getting a day off for posting this - so don't follow his example - diebitter

Re: M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
MT2R: You're a [censored] idiot. I'm sick of you idiots posting info about shortstacking to try and get attention. You're not good. You're not cool. You're probably not even a winning shortstacker at decent limits. Shut. the. [censored]. up.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

kurosh,

you were so much more entertaining when you were a degen limit player, than a nl SS