Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

yeah i think the tribe are way better off keeping shoppach, v-mart is going to be able to put in less and less time at catcher over the next few years and shoppach is a good, cheap backup.

[censored] i wish we had him, our backup sucks balllls

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]
did someone delete a totally benign post of mine in this thread

[/ QUOTE ]

pretty sure that if you reply to a post that gets deleted, your post goes away with it as well

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

yeah one of the options in thread management is to 'delete this post and all replies,' it is a quick and easy way to prevent thread derailment.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]
its depressing how the phillies are never in these conversations. if we had a good farm system i'm sure we'd try and land him, but we simply don't (in fact, it sucks)

[/ QUOTE ]

Phillies are kinda in the hunt, gillick went down there to talk yesterday and they asked for victorino and carlos carrasco. Or at least thats what pro sports daily said.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]
.Shoppach, too, since he can spell Vic and basically be a half starter/half backup.


[/ QUOTE ]

There is no way that shoppach has more value to the Indians, his bat and arm are big league ready. Over hte past 2 seasons he's played in ~100 games and his avg/ops/slg% over those games would put him in the top 10 offensive catchers for last year, and he threw out 36% of sb attempts. figure in that he's still young at 24 and can improve his hitting and is very very cheap he should find himself as a starting catcher somewhere very soon.


EDIT: I was off on his age, just checked and hes 27, makes him much less valuable. He must have been 24/25 when he was traded to the indians.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
its depressing how the phillies are never in these conversations. if we had a good farm system i'm sure we'd try and land him, but we simply don't (in fact, it sucks)

[/ QUOTE ]

Phillies are kinda in the hunt, gillick went down there to talk yesterday and they asked for victorino and carlos carrasco. Or at least thats what pro sports daily said.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would happily do that.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

I think everyone may be getting ahead of themselves here. All that was said was basically that they would be willing to listen to offers on Cabrera (and technically Loria has not even confirmed this yet). Obviously for the right offer any player in the game could be traded, I don't think it will end up happening in this case.
The Marlins really are not that far off from competing..they are severely lacking in starting pitching, but that's it. They have a good offense with only 2 weak spots that could easily be fixed cheaply, and their bullpen is amazing. The only way I can see them even considering a deal for Cabrera is if they are receiving 2 young major league ready starters. The odds of a trade like this coming together seem unlikely from any team. Trading Cabrera would leave a huge hole in their offense that would be impossible to replace this season. Yes, he is going to cost about 10 million, but they paid him around 7 last year, they have him for 2 more seasons and if they are going to compete they will need him. I feel they are very close to being a competitive team, especially now that their division is so weak, and I don't see them throwing that away to save such a small amount of money.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
its depressing how the phillies are never in these conversations. if we had a good farm system i'm sure we'd try and land him, but we simply don't (in fact, it sucks)

[/ QUOTE ]

Phillies are kinda in the hunt, gillick went down there to talk yesterday and they asked for victorino and carlos carrasco. Or at least thats what pro sports daily said.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would happily do that.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is my reaction as well. Only concern is how much longer he can play 3B. Obviously we can't move him to 1B.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I feel they are very close to being a competitive team, especially now that their division is so weak, and I don't see them throwing that away to save such a small amount of money.

[/ QUOTE ]
Very wishful thinking imho. The Phillies and Mets may not be the Sox and Yankees but they are still definitly better than the Marlins. Also the Marlins pitching problems are not so easily solved. They're not competing anytime soon.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think everyone may be getting ahead of themselves here. All that was said was basically that they would be willing to listen to offers on Cabrera (and technically Loria has not even confirmed this yet). Obviously for the right offer any player in the game could be traded, I don't think it will end up happening in this case.
The Marlins really are not that far off from competing..they are severely lacking in starting pitching, but that's it. They have a good offense with only 2 weak spots that could easily be fixed cheaply, and their bullpen is amazing. The only way I can see them even considering a deal for Cabrera is if they are receiving 2 young major league ready starters. The odds of a trade like this coming together seem unlikely from any team. Trading Cabrera would leave a huge hole in their offense that would be impossible to replace this season. Yes, he is going to cost about 10 million, but they paid him around 7 last year, they have him for 2 more seasons and if they are going to compete they will need him. I feel they are very close to being a competitive team, especially now that their division is so weak, and I don't see them throwing that away to save such a small amount of money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Division is weak? Are you crazy? I think if the Marlins could get a good return on investment here...and I am CERTAIN somebody will manage to find an overpayment offer if the Marlins are really looking to deal...they should do it for sure. I mean the course of action that makes the most sense for the Marlins is to either A) trade miggy, set a time horizon for 3 years when they will still have their other young assets..or B) deal as many people who will be free agents after this season as possible, and go crazy in the market next offseason, possibly landing CC or Santana, and some bat to make their once every five years push.

James

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

miggy is expected to earn $12 mil in arb this year. that means 09 will be around $14 mil. and then he's a fa, one of the best fas in the history of baseball. lol @ red sox having to give up two of their very best prospects -- which is the only thing that will get cabrera -- and then having to move cab to 1b where he's less valuable, and then having to pay him prolly $20m/yr as a FA.

makes much more sense for nyy than bos.

oh yeah, in what world will lowell make more money than cab?

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]

oh yeah, in what world will lowell make more money than cab?

[/ QUOTE ]

mike lowell will probably earn in the 14-16 range next season, unless he gives boston a discount or something. cabrera, as you stated, is projected to earn around 12.

[ QUOTE ]
lol @ red sox having to give up two of their very best prospects -- which is the only thing that will get cabrera -- and then having to move cab to 1b where he's less valuable, and then having to pay him prolly $20m/yr as a FA.

[/ QUOTE ]

suppose the red sox give up two prospects for cabrera and sign him at your projected salary. say they give him a moderate raise through his arb years in exchange for a slight discount over the next few (pretty standard) for a total of 90MM / 5 years (avg of 18MM)

cabrera's projected MORP (per BP) over that same time period is in the $125 million range. in other words, the sox would be getting more than their money's worth on one of the best RH hitters in the league. even if they extended him on the spot at 20MM/yr for 5 years they'd be getting a bargain.

in other words, LOL at you thinking that paying miguel cabrera 20M / year isn't a good deal for the sox.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

except you're not accounting the massive MORP the prospects they would have to give up would earn.

i doubt lowell gets 14-16 mil. how many people in baseball make that much? teams aren't THAT stupid. that would baiscally guarantee a-rod getting 30+ mil for 8 years.

two other things: cabrera's MORP right now is assuming he's at 3b. but he'll be at 1b.

that and ellsbury's MORP is 56 million.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]

except you're not accounting the massive MORP the prospects they would have to give up would earn.

[/ QUOTE ]

a lot of those prospects are blocked. a lot of prospects flame out. plus, you have to look at what is readily available vs. what is scarce. one of the hardest things in the league to land is a RH power hitter in his prime, playing for a salary that is actually below his MORP. i can think of only a handful in the league right now, and almost none of them are available.

big market teams don't maximize their MORP surpluses because you can't compete every year just relying on rookies and arb-year guys. you can be good at times on a short payroll (like the rockies were this year) but fans of big market teams are not going to tolerate a bunch of down years while you replenish your system or deal with prospects who flame out / start badly.

masterson's projected MORP would be in the neighborhood of 20MM right now up through his arb years. ellsbury's is around 55. lester: 18. none of these guys are untouchable. you could give up all three of those guys and cabrera is still worth more, plus he has a higher marginal value because the extra, elite WARP levels he provides are more likely to put the team over the hump, into the playoffs or towards a championship, etc. look at some of nate silver's writing on marginal MORP values of star players for contending teams for an explanation.

if cabrera for lester + ellsbury is on the table, the sox do it in a heartbeat.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]

i doubt lowell gets 14-16 mil. how many people in baseball make that much?

[/ QUOTE ]

ummm, a lot? hell jake westbrook makes that much. j.d. freaking drew makes that much. carlos delgado made 14.5 last year. richie [censored] sexson made 15MM. so did jim thome, curt schilling, bartolo colon, lots of people.

i'm not saying he deserves it, but if he wants it he'll get it.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

also, cabrera is so bad defensively that i doubt his MORP changes much between 3B and 1B / LF. it's a non-issue for the sox anyway since their current 1B can play 3B way better than cabrera.

EDIT: also, crisp and ellsbury have virtually the same projected value over that time. if people were saying 'give up crisp and lester for cabrera' everyone would rush to say 'of course the sox do that.' but since it's one of these super-hyped PROSPECTS that you're not supposed to give up anymore, we can't do it. you shouldn't give up top prospects for marginal, overpriced veterans. you SHOULD give them up for cost-effective, proven studs in their prime.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]
also, cabrera is so bad defensively that i doubt his MORP changes much between 3B and 1B / LF. it's a non-issue for the sox anyway since their current 1B can play 3B way better than cabrera.

EDIT: also, crisp and ellsbury have virtually the same projected value over that time. if people were saying 'give up crisp and lester for cabrera' everyone would rush to say 'of course the sox do that.' but since it's one of these super-hyped PROSPECTS that you're not supposed to give up anymore, we can't do it. you shouldn't give up top prospects for marginal, overpriced veterans. you SHOULD give them up for cost-effective, proven studs in their prime.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Ellsbury is so ridiculously overrated at this point(which is saying something, because he is quite valuable). But I mean really - The Sox don't need Lester and the difference between Cabrera and Ellsbury is hardly quantifiable. Ellsbury is a nice little player in a huge market who ran hot at the right time. Cabrera is a top 5-10 player who gets no respect because of the team he plays for. He ought to command much more than Ellsbury and Lester, and I think that if he is traded Ellsbury and Lester will look like the [censored] on the shoe of whoever the Marlins get.

James

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

Definitely. If Ellsbury and Lester is all it costs to get Cabrera (who will absolutely crush the ball in Fenway, BTW), the Red Sox will do it instantly. However, I'm sure Colletti will offer Kershaw/X for him.

HAVE I MENTIONED IT SHOULD BE A CRIME TO DO WHAT COLLETTI IS DOING TO THE DODGERS

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i doubt lowell gets 14-16 mil. how many people in baseball make that much?

[/ QUOTE ]

ummm, a lot? hell jake westbrook makes that much. j.d. freaking drew makes that much. carlos delgado made 14.5 last year. richie [censored] sexson made 15MM. so did jim thome, curt schilling, bartolo colon, lots of people.

i'm not saying he deserves it, but if he wants it he'll get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most projections for lowell have him in the 4 year, 40 million dollar range. Sadly I think it will be much more than that.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

agree w/ kyleb, i think ultimately if the sox want cabrera the marlins will either want buchholz or like 4 good prospects. they would have limited interest in lowrie due to hanley being such a stud, unless they considered moving him to 3B.

honestly i would rather give up ellsbury, lester and some minor leaguers than make buchholz the centerpiece of a package. i wonder if lester, ellsbury, bowden would get it done? that would make me sick but i think we'd have to do it.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]
ANDY MARTE

DO

NOT

WANT.

It's just not gonna cut it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Marte is extremely underrated right now. The pendulum has swung too far from when he was overrated a few years ago.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Only concern is how much longer he can play 3B. Obviously we can't move him to 1B.


[/ QUOTE ]

The rumor has it that he can play roughly zero more years at third. Whoever trades for him has to be thinking about him as a 1B.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Definitely. If Ellsbury and Lester is all it costs to get Cabrera (who will absolutely crush the ball in Fenway, BTW), the Red Sox will do it instantly. However, I'm sure Colletti will offer Kershaw/X for him.

HAVE I MENTIONED IT SHOULD BE A CRIME TO DO WHAT COLLETTI IS DOING TO THE DODGERS

[/ QUOTE ]

Kershaw, Loney, and X where X is an A ball pitcher with a high upside or a nearly ready AA pitcher. I like it.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Only concern is how much longer he can play 3B. Obviously we can't move him to 1B.


[/ QUOTE ]

The rumor has it that he can play roughly zero more years at third. Whoever trades for him has to be thinking about him as a 1B.

[/ QUOTE ]

that makes him a little less attractive to the jankees imo. but not too much since they have betemit i guess.

sucks for the dodgers too, where would they play loney? i guess they'd prob trade him, possibly in the cabrera package.

really the sox are the only team that would probably have preferred he play 1B anyway. i don't think this changes that much but who knows.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

man if i am miggy and i hear they want to trade me to the dodgers, i'm like, 'f that, joo tray me to dem i am goink to weigh four hunrid [censored] pounce.' and no way would i want to talk long-term with 'em either.

come on miggy, you want to come to boston and bang doubles off the monster all day, right?

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

Will Carroll has a nice little tidbit on Miguel Cabrera over at BP.

As the representative of the Diamondbacks, I offer Chris Young, Connor Jackson, and Esmerling Vasquez. K. Thanks.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Definitely. If Ellsbury and Lester is all it costs to get Cabrera (who will absolutely crush the ball in Fenway, BTW), the Red Sox will do it instantly. However, I'm sure Colletti will offer Kershaw/X for him.

HAVE I MENTIONED IT SHOULD BE A CRIME TO DO WHAT COLLETTI IS DOING TO THE DODGERS

[/ QUOTE ]

Kershaw, Loney, and X where X is an A ball pitcher with a high upside or a nearly ready AA pitcher. I like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh god i want to vomit

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Will Carroll has a nice little tidbit on Miguel Cabrera over at BP.

As the representative of the Diamondbacks, I offer Chris Young, Connor Jackson, and Esmerling Vasquez. K. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not in favor of trading Chris Young. I realize that we can just play Upton in CF and Quentin in RF, but Chris Young is worth sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much.

Sigh. That's giving up a ton, and I do mean a TON.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Will Carroll has a nice little tidbit on Miguel Cabrera over at BP.

As the representative of the Diamondbacks, I offer Chris Young, Connor Jackson, and Esmerling Vasquez. K. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not in favor of trading Chris Young. I realize that we can just play Upton in CF and Quentin in RF, but Chris Young is worth sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much.

Sigh. That's giving up a ton, and I do mean a TON.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, obviously I'd rather deal Gonzalez or Quentin, but if Young is involved nobody could trump it.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

That's true, but Chris Young is arguably worth as much as Miguel Cabrera.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's true, but Chris Young is arguably worth as much as Miguel Cabrera.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but Young is worth less to the D'Backs than any other team.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's true, but Chris Young is arguably worth as much as Miguel Cabrera.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but Young is worth less to the D'Backs than any other team.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. I wouldn't be unhappy if they dealt him for Miguel Cabrera, but I wouldn't be thrilled, either. I feel like I'd almost rather see Justin Upton dealt, but that's obviously stupid.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

wow 20 deleted posts and i wasn't involved.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I prefer that the Sox keep and play their top prospects for cost control and use that extra money to buy Free Agents.

[/ QUOTE ]

because that's worked out so well?

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

[ QUOTE ]

Division is weak? Are you crazy? I think if the Marlins could get a good return on investment here...and I am CERTAIN somebody will manage to find an overpayment offer if the Marlins are really looking to deal...they should do it for sure. I mean the course of action that makes the most sense for the Marlins is to either A) trade miggy, set a time horizon for 3 years when they will still have their other young assets..or B) deal as many people who will be free agents after this season as possible, and go crazy in the market next offseason, possibly landing CC or Santana, and some bat to make their once every five years push.

James

[/ QUOTE ]

The division is weak...the Phillies won it this year if you weren't aware, that would be the team that had 1 starter capable of winning a game and no bullpen. So yeah I would consider them weak. The Met's pitching is not much better. They have good offenses but so do the Marlins,and their bullpen is by far the best in the division. If they were to add maybe 2 starters who can pitch for most of the year and give them a good number of innings, they are definitely capable of competing with any of the teams in the division.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

I didn't delete anyone's posts. Maybe Ebenhoe did.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

as a marlins fan I dont think Im going to be happy with any of these deals

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

Toro,

stop being a baby, being civil is fine... but like kyleb, maybe NT said... calling an idiot (you) and idiot can often be the only way to get you to realize you are wrong.

This is a poker forum and logic rules, if you make logical arguements that people disagree with you will be treated nicely. If you aren't being treated nicely, then look in the mirror.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

Unless the Marlins just want to dump his payroll and care about nothing else (which I doubt is the case) I'm really not sure what type of deal could happen. They won't trade him straight up for a pitcher that just wouldn't make sense. They are solid at every position except CF and C (CF there are a few options, I doubt they will get anyone that much better in a trade, and C is not a big priority). So unless they are receiving 2 young starting pitchers, they aren't getting a good deal.

Re: Heyman: Miggy is on the block.
 

The Twins have tons of young pitching and some good catching prospects. They also could really use a big, right handed DH. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]