Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Basically what you are saying is: Um, look at me, I play 27/3 and I win money, so wtf.

Basically what the other posters are saying is: Yes, you win, but if you just raised an extra 15% of your hands, you would win more.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

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Basically what the other posters are saying is: Yes, you win, but if you just raised an extra 15% of your hands, you would win more.

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and what i'm saying is thats bs for 10nl. limping = winning

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Ok, how about a propbet? I play 100K 10NL, 12 tabling, playing at least 20 VPIP and at least 16PFR, and if I run lower than 7.75PTBB/100, I'll ship you $1K. If it's the other way around, you ship me $1K.

I loves me some propbets.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

this is getting interesting...

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

What is amazing is he has logged over 20000 hands and hasnt learned this. Some are destined to be 10nl 4 life.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

to be fair, he's logged over 200K hands and has been winning at a reasonable rate.

Could he have won more? Perhaps. But his style has been working for him and probably are more appropriate for THOSE tables then people give credit for.

A lot of the reason we raise is to (1) build a pot (2) isolate/narrow the field (3) disguise our hands (4) buy the button (5) steal blinds, etc.

When the table is littered with calling stations, reasons (2), (3), (4) & (5) all disappear.

Also- when players are more likely to make HUGE mistakes postflop for large amounts of money, the more correct it is to see more flops cheap.

I agree that this isn't the best advice for a new player. But to discount that a loose passive style can't be a winning strategy is wrong.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

LPP can be a winning style, obviously by his numbers it is for him. However giving that advice to a player that is weak at post flop play is a losing proposition and goes against what 95% of the posts have said, many giving very solid advice.

I also contend he would be a complete donator at any level higher than 25, maybe 50nl. If his goal is to be marginally profitable at 10nl then his goal has been achieved.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

He doesn't have $1k to ship when he loses.

The fact you post so much and still play 28/3 makes my head asplode. How the hell do you know limping=money when you never play any different?!

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, how about a propbet? I play 100K 10NL, 12 tabling, playing at least 20 VPIP and at least 16PFR, and if I run lower than 7.75PTBB/100, I'll ship you $1K. If it's the other way around, you ship me $1K.

I loves me some propbets.

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no thanks on the propbet but i'd be very interested to see your results.

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What is amazing is he has logged over 20000 hands and hasnt learned this. Some are destined to be 10nl 4 life.


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what?

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to be fair, he's logged over 200K hands and has been winning at a reasonable rate.

Could he have won more? Perhaps. But his style has been working for him and probably are more appropriate for THOSE tables then people give credit for.

A lot of the reason we raise is to (1) build a pot (2) isolate/narrow the field (3) disguise our hands (4) buy the button (5) steal blinds, etc.

When the table is littered with calling stations, reasons (2), (3), (4) & (5) all disappear.

Also- when players are more likely to make HUGE mistakes postflop for large amounts of money, the more correct it is to see more flops cheap.

I agree that this isn't the best advice for a new player. But to discount that a loose passive style can't be a winning strategy is wrong.


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well said [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

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He doesn't have $1k to ship when he loses.

The fact you post so much and still play 28/3 makes my head asplode. How the hell do you know limping=money when you never play any different?!

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as i said earlier in this thread i use to play the other way and it never worked

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

It didn't play because you spewed post flop.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

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until I tightened up and got my aggressive.

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http://www.friedmanarchives.com/Chin...humbs%20Up.jpg

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

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until I tightened up and got my aggressive.

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http://www.friedmanarchives.com/Chin...humbs%20Up.jpg

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lmao

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

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It didn't play because you spewed post flop.

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dude kurto just gave you the laundry list of reasons why raising pf at 10nl doesn't work. why don't you believe him either?

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

I think Jerry is right (to a degree) and mjws00 makes some good points too. And of course I can see the value of what other people are saying too.
However its not so clear cut either way imo and therefore I'm somewhere in the middle.
Well I am a TAGfish 21/12 or something. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
You should primarily raise for value in the micros.
Raising for deception, image and balance are secondary considerations and sometimes even fall into being FPS.
Yes, it will be neccesary against good thinking players but these are in short supply at micros and in any case these are not the players you are making money from.
You are making your money from the passive calling station recreational players who have never heard of PT, Pahud, think nothing of stacking off OOP w TPGK in limped pots. They think nothing of your image, who is aggressive, who is not. They think about the value of their hand. Period.

In micros, due to calling stations, general passivity, lack of FE, it is more likely that the best hand wins the pot than in higher limits.
Therefore speculative hands are sometimes best played as cheaply as possible until they hit.
Having said all that, I can't agree with Jerry thinking a pfr of 3% is ok. I mean do you limp QQ or what?
You must be able to raise 10% of the time just for pure value. Get yourself to 28/8 (at least) Jerry and I'm sure you'll see an improvement.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

lol loose passive poker is bad poker, you miss out on so much theoretical value by not playing tight and raising hands that are clearly ahead of your opponents ranges. who cares if they all call and you miss a lot, you also hit a lot and own them if you play decently at all postflop.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

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dude kurto just gave you the laundry list of reasons why raise pf at 10nl doesn't work. why don't you believe him either?

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Actually, I'm not saying it doesn't work. But you would have to adjust to players.

If players are calling too much, then raise larger amounts to compound their preflop mistakes.

Also, you may be appropriately raising preflop but not adjusting postflop.

If you raise and 4 people go to the flop with you, you have to adjust the value of your hand postflop.

I am saying that LPP can work. I am NOT saying that Tight aggressive play does not work.

Please note that I left it open to the possibility that your win raise is lower then it should be. I played $10 tables many eons ago and remember making 15bb/100. And I played like a nit.

You haven't demonstrated that TAG doesn't work because you haven't played it. (its not reflected in the stats you've posted) Nor have you demonstrated your post flop skills. If you correctly raise preflop but make a lot of mistakes postflop, you're going to lose.

Do I think one can win playing loose/passive preflop? Certainly. Does it maximize your potential? By no means...

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

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dude kurto just gave you the laundry list of reasons why raise pf at 10nl doesn't work. why don't you believe him either?

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Actually, I'm not saying it doesn't work.

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i know you're not saying it doesn't work but you gave the reasons why it doesn't work

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
to be fair, he's logged over 200K hands and has been winning at a reasonable rate.

Could he have won more? Perhaps. But his style has been working for him and probably are more appropriate for THOSE tables then people give credit for.

A lot of the reason we raise is to (1) build a pot (2) isolate/narrow the field (3) disguise our hands (4) buy the button (5) steal blinds, etc.

When the table is littered with calling stations, reasons (2), (3), (4) & (5) all disappear.

Also- when players are more likely to make HUGE mistakes postflop for large amounts of money, the more correct it is to see more flops cheap.

I agree that this isn't the best advice for a new player. But to discount that a loose passive style can't be a winning strategy is wrong.

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Agree and disagree- it is true that 2-5 disappear at these micro-limits because a pfr is not respected. But I also see a lot of donks raising 1BB and reraising the min- grow some balls. My 4-6BB raises narrow the field to 1-2 dudes and my cbets (72%) of the time usually are good. If not, I fire on the turn and take it down.

Jerry is a Loose Passive donk who only plays post flop with good hands- I'd extract a lot of money from him preflop by making him pay to see and run when his donkishass hits it hard.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Really it comes down to post flop play

Limping into a flop like Jerry just leads to too many hard decisions at every street with marginal hands. You don't get value for these hands because you don't know where you stand in relationship to other people- and you lose a lot of money here- from calling too much and from not getting value when you are ahead.

Limping like Jerry is really only profitable when you flop a monster and and can string someone along for their stack- but really how often does this happen. I played 600 hands last night (big deal for some of you but I was busy watching the RedSox spank the Angels) and won 5 big pots. These 5 big pots were 2/3s of my winnings for the night. The rest came from PFR and taking down a small pot with a cbet.

So I guess the point is that you can be successful like Jerry playing 28/3 and waiting for monster flops and be a 7BB/100hand success story

or

you can be aggressive preflop and be a 15-20BB/100 winner like me.

Join my table anytime Jerry (pm me for screen name)- I like passive players like you!

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
to be fair, he's logged over 200K hands and has been winning at a reasonable rate.

Could he have won more? Perhaps. But his style has been working for him and probably are more appropriate for THOSE tables then people give credit for.

A lot of the reason we raise is to (1) build a pot (2) isolate/narrow the field (3) disguise our hands (4) buy the button (5) steal blinds, etc.

When the table is littered with calling stations, reasons (2), (3), (4) & (5) all disappear.

Also- when players are more likely to make HUGE mistakes postflop for large amounts of money, the more correct it is to see more flops cheap.

I agree that this isn't the best advice for a new player. But to discount that a loose passive style can't be a winning strategy is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree and disagree- it is true that 2-5 disappear at these micro-limits because a pfr is not respected. But I also see a lot of donks raising 1BB and reraising the min- grow some balls. My 4-6BB raises narrow the field to 1-2 dudes and my cbets (72%) of the time usually are good. If not, I fire on the turn and take it down.

Jerry is a Loose Passive donk who only plays post flop with good hands- I'd extract a lot of money from him preflop by making him pay to see and run when his donkishass hits it hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you even play 10nl bro?

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

No, not really, I just finished 15K hands at NL2 and moved up to NL5 (4k hands). I've played about 800 hands at NL10 and it's all the same passive bad players- just bigger stacks.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

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Jerry is a Loose Passive donk who only plays post flop with good hands- I'd extract a lot of money from him preflop by making him pay to see and run when his donkishass hits it hard.


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I agree that a good tag should seriously put the hurt on these players. I suspect that most people don't adjust well to judging hand strengths when they raise and 5 people still go to the flop.

I also think that raising the amount of your PFR probably helps.

I believe I said earlier that I doubted Jerry was correctly adjusting to table conditions... either tightening up, C-betting less and valuebetting more, raising for larger amounts pf, etc.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Being loose passive pre-flop definitely has its merits, but a pfr% of 3 is just ridiculous. You should definitely be raising AT+/TT+ from all positions, and you need to raise BIG. 4xbb raises don't mean anything at 2NL, so what I started to do was raise about 10xbb.

I would definitely just flat call a lot more with hands like connectors (both suited/unsuited), Ax/Kx suited, etc.

I'll check my pt database tonight, but I think my stats for 2NL-5NL was like 35/10, which would be very fishy stats at 50NL, but probably optimal at 2-5NL.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

I'd also like to add, that playing the 27/3 or whatever will teach you bad habits and be bad for your subsequent poker career.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

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my stats for 2NL-5NL was like 35/10, which would be very fishy stats at 50NL, but probably optimal at 2-5NL

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incorrect

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

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my stats for 2NL-5NL was like 35/10, which would be very fishy stats at 50NL, but probably optimal at 2-5NL

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incorrect

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I don't get it, are you saying that it's not optimal at 2-5NL but optimal at other limits? why did you highlight that part? I actually looked it up last night, my stats at 2-5NL were about 30/13 making about 19PTBB/100 over ~10K hands.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

I'm not gonna read this whole thing but I will say there is absolutly no reason at any level of NL poker you shouldn't be raising the top 10% of your hands. jerry if you tried to convince us that 26/10 was ideal for these games you might have an argument, but playing 27/3 at any level is highly exploitable and just lol in genera.