Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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Seriously? There is a Gold Heaven, a Platinum Heaven, and a Diamond Heaven? Is that in the Bible somewhere?

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To be honest I don't know. I'm only telling you that I was taught(as a catholic) that the greatness of your reward in heavan depends on how well you live your life on earth. Conversely, the level of punishment in hell is also dependent on how wicked of a life you lead.

If what I was taught is true, the OP and SilentA can no longer make any valid moral conclusions. The situation is very well be akin to passing up a small EV bet today in order to make a larger EV bet tommorrow. You need a whole lot more information to solve that problem and that information is just not available. How does one accurately measure and assign a value to the different levels of eternal reward and eternal punishment? How does one determine the probability that a specific innocent is going to go bad? How does one determine the range of probabilities of a specific innocent going bad and know that range accurately coincides with the different levels of eternal damnation that "innocent" may recieve?

It's pointless for men to debate wether we have a moral obligation to kill and innocent in order to guarantee they will go to heaven. Its for God to decide that. On this point we can let this thread die the death it deserves.

Stu

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Right but if what you were taught is true then the common understanding of Heaven as Infinitely +EV is silly and wrong and the Pascal's Wager folks are even MORE retarded. Lets hope, for entertainments sake, that you are incorrect.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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Ok, so the answer is no, there are NOT different heavens, there are NOT different rewards, but there are several different flowery metaphors that different people use to describe eternal salvation.

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Hi Vhawk,

They way it was described to me is that in heaven people experience the maximum amount of joy they can possibly experience. However the "maximum" of someone who lead a very holy life and achieved a higher reward in heaven is much higher than the "maxium" of someone who got in by the skin of thier teeth.

Stu

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

Stu's on the right track...Different people get different rewards. Some get 1 crown while others get all of them. Some will get none. How many do you think Billy Graham will get? How many will the guy that accepts Christ on his deathbed get?

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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Ok, so the answer is no, there are NOT different heavens, there are NOT different rewards, but there are several different flowery metaphors that different people use to describe eternal salvation.

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Hi Vhawk,

They way it was described to me is that in heaven people experience the maximum amount of joy they can possibly experience. However the "maximum" of someone who lead a very holy life and achieved a higher reward in heaven is much higher than the "maxium" of someone who got in by the skin of thier teeth.

Stu

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Ok, but what difference does it make? There isn't any jealousy or pain or suffering, right? The absolute absence of suffering = infinite joy, IMO. In order for one reward to be "better" there must be some way in which the other rewards are imperfect or insufficient.

Think of it like drug tolerance. It would take a very small amount of morphine to ease all of my pain, because I've never been on any morphine in my life and have no tolerance. For a person with cancer, it would require a whole lot more morphine to achieve that same pain-relief. Ignoring side-effects, why is their morphine treatment better than mine? Because they get more?

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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Think of it like drug tolerance. It would take a very small amount of morphine to ease all of my pain, because I've never been on any morphine in my life and have no tolerance. For a person with cancer, it would require a whole lot more morphine to achieve that same pain-relief. Ignoring side-effects, why is their morphine treatment better than mine? Because they get more?

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Thats a bad analogy. A better analogy is a drinking glass filled to the brim with water compared to a pitcher filled to the brim with water. Both are in a state of "fullness" but one object contains more than the other. In heaven one soul may have a greater capacity to experience joy than another but both souls are experiencing the maxium amount of joy they are capable of experiencing. Since both souls experience this joy for an eternity (i.e. what is essentially an infinite amount of time) then the amount of joy each soul experiences is infinite. I'm sure you are aware any positive value multiplied by infinity = infinity.

Stu

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

Nobody said one reward was better or worse than the next...you just get more or less of them depending on how you use your spiritual gifts while on earth.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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Nobody said one reward was better or worse than the next...you just get more or less of them depending on how you use your spiritual gifts while on earth.

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See, Stu, Brad liked my analogy. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Ok, if neither is better or worse then why would anyone care which one they got? They wouldn't. And thus you cannot use this to refute the OP, since this would never enter into the equation.

To Stu,

Its not really like your example, its a lot more like mine. Rather than a cup or a pitcher, try my stomach versus someone with a much larger stomach. Both are full, but his contains more food. So what? In your example, it is implied that that extra absolute amount of water is useful for something. But in Heaven, it is manifestly NOT useful for anything, else the cup would suffer.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

Ummm..."liked" might not be the correct word...thought it was cornball is better. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

*sigh heavily*

Were you ever in the Boy Scouts?

If so, did you earn merit badges?

Did they give you a merit badge in woodcarving when you were actually doing archery?

Its kinda the same way with heavenly crowns. Pardon the crude analogy but since you missed it the first time....

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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The answer to the OP is pretty obvious. You cannot go around killing people because you can never be sure what they really believe. They may say they believe in Jesus but they could be lying. By killing them you have denied them a chance to truly believe. The only person you can be sure believes is yourself and I don't know what the majority of Christians now believe about suicide. (ie If the person believes does he get into heaven)

Also I think the aborted babies go to heaven is a very very modern idea. Historically most people have thought they go to hell, atleast Catholics and probably more. Christians decided this was logically unfair so they changed their view. In the future they will most likely change their view on hell all together.

Saying Bunny is not a Christian seems horribly un-christian to me. He says he believes in Jesus, who really cares about anything else? I don't think Jesus would.

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FWIW, babies/children go to heaven. Jesus said so mulitple times in the New Testament. That's not a 'modern' idea.

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This might be what you believe but to say it as a fact is very dishonest. The Pope is unsure and only says that their is hope to believe that they get into heaven. Maybe you should email him if it is so obvious [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

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I'm very sure. I'll put the Word of God against the Pope any day of the week and twice on Sunday. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

As I have stated before in this thread...I have my own convictions about Catholics that I will not post here.

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So you want me to believe that in the Bible Jesus says very clearly that babies go to heaven and the Pope just missed it? I am pretty sure that dude has read the Bible, maybe even twice [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

It makes no sense especially since the Pope obviously WANTS to agree with you. Maybe you are not as good of a Bible scholar as you seem to think?

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No idea why you would think the Pope would WANT to agree with this. It makes a lot more sense that the Pope would prefer everyone to be born hopelessly sinful.

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He said that their is reason to hope that babies can go to heaven. The Pope doesn't want to pray to a god that punishes babies for eternity any more than you do.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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The answer to the OP is pretty obvious. You cannot go around killing people because you can never be sure what they really believe. They may say they believe in Jesus but they could be lying. By killing them you have denied them a chance to truly believe. The only person you can be sure believes is yourself and I don't know what the majority of Christians now believe about suicide. (ie If the person believes does he get into heaven)

Also I think the aborted babies go to heaven is a very very modern idea. Historically most people have thought they go to hell, atleast Catholics and probably more. Christians decided this was logically unfair so they changed their view. In the future they will most likely change their view on hell all together.

Saying Bunny is not a Christian seems horribly un-christian to me. He says he believes in Jesus, who really cares about anything else? I don't think Jesus would.

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FWIW, babies/children go to heaven. Jesus said so mulitple times in the New Testament. That's not a 'modern' idea.

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This might be what you believe but to say it as a fact is very dishonest. The Pope is unsure and only says that their is hope to believe that they get into heaven. Maybe you should email him if it is so obvious [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

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I'm very sure. I'll put the Word of God against the Pope any day of the week and twice on Sunday. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

As I have stated before in this thread...I have my own convictions about Catholics that I will not post here.

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So you want me to believe that in the Bible Jesus says very clearly that babies go to heaven and the Pope just missed it? I am pretty sure that dude has read the Bible, maybe even twice [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

It makes no sense especially since the Pope obviously WANTS to agree with you. Maybe you are not as good of a Bible scholar as you seem to think?

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There are multiple references from Jesus in the NT. Do I need to look them up for you or do you know how to use Google??

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I want you to explain how it can be so obvious to you yet a subject of debate for the Catholics for 1000 years. Don't you think that is a bit strange? Please give me some actual Bible quotes if you can find any. Thank you.

Think about it from my point of view. I have no idea what Jesus said about this. So one guy (you) tells me its obvious and babies go to heaven. Then there is the Pope who says that he is not sure (but wants to think the same thing you do) and one of his major jobs is to interpret the Bible. The Pope must be really dumb, or lying for some reason or you have made a mistake. Am i crazy for thinking maybe you made a mistake?

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Here:

Matt 18: 2-6
Matt 19: 13-15
Mark 10: 13-16
Luke 18: 15-16

Read it for yourself.

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To me it looks like Jesus was praising kids because they believe in him so easily.

"Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."

The kids he is talking seem to be able to speak and understand. I don't see anything about aborted kids or babies who cannot yet recieve the kingdom of god.

You might be right but I it seems to me that the passages are vague enough so that a resonable person can have a different view. The Bible isn't a math book.

Also he seems to speak very figuratively. He said on one of those sites that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven. You can't believe that he really ment that right?

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He meant ALL children until they are at an intellectual age to be able to understand right from wrong. NOTE: I did not put a chronological age to that statement. Neither does the Bible.

And you think those passages are vague??

Concerning your last paragraph, yes I believe that.

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So if you got 10 million dollars somehow you would give it all away? Those passages are vague. I wanted somthing like "do not worry about babies that die before they accept me, they get into heaven."

I don't know where you got that he ment all children until they can know the difference from right and wrong. Did you just make that up? We are also reading it in english and don't know what word they used in the original text, children might be the closest thing in english but mean something slightly different in the original. I really don't care what you or the Pope think on this issue, I just wish you could say that the Bible is not 100% clear it.

I guess this is why you guys have had so many splits and fights over what the Bible says. People can't admit that they might be wrong.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

That verse you quoted is probably from the King James Version amirite? I understand it since I grew up on a KJV. Look it up in the New Int'l Version. It'll make alot more sense.

Now you understand why the Bible is been translated so many different ways.

No, I didn't make that up. And Jesus was very clear. Like I said...look it up in the NIV & it will be easier to understand.

No, I wouldn't give $10m away. That's not what he's saying. It's kinda two fold. I interpret the camel part to mean that anything is possible with God's help. The rich part meaning if you are rich in wordly possessions so that it stands between you & a personal relationship with Jesus, then you won't see the Kingdom of Heaven. In Jesus' time, the Pharisees were the wealthy ruling class of Jews & they were arrogant & pretty much hated Jesus. So he was using that as a 'springboard' if you will for a lesson.

Don't misinterpret that though....I know alot of wealthy people who are extremely devout Christians.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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Ummm..."liked" might not be the correct word...thought it was cornball is better. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

*sigh heavily*

Were you ever in the Boy Scouts?

If so, did you earn merit badges?

Did they give you a merit badge in woodcarving when you were actually doing archery?

Its kinda the same way with heavenly crowns. Pardon the crude analogy but since you missed it the first time....

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I think you are missing the important point. If neither of them is any better, then bringing them up in the first place is stupid. They were only brought up to try to COUNTER the argument that we should just kill people. The only reason this is a counter is because earning these extra rewards is somehow better, so depriving these people of a chance to do that is wrong. But if earning these extra rewards is NOT better (something you yourself said) then this argument is useless and nothing more than a curious distraction.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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The answer to the OP is pretty obvious. You cannot go around killing people because you can never be sure what they really believe. They may say they believe in Jesus but they could be lying. By killing them you have denied them a chance to truly believe. The only person you can be sure believes is yourself and I don't know what the majority of Christians now believe about suicide. (ie If the person believes does he get into heaven)

Also I think the aborted babies go to heaven is a very very modern idea. Historically most people have thought they go to hell, atleast Catholics and probably more. Christians decided this was logically unfair so they changed their view. In the future they will most likely change their view on hell all together.

Saying Bunny is not a Christian seems horribly un-christian to me. He says he believes in Jesus, who really cares about anything else? I don't think Jesus would.

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FWIW, babies/children go to heaven. Jesus said so mulitple times in the New Testament. That's not a 'modern' idea.

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This might be what you believe but to say it as a fact is very dishonest. The Pope is unsure and only says that their is hope to believe that they get into heaven. Maybe you should email him if it is so obvious [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

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I'm very sure. I'll put the Word of God against the Pope any day of the week and twice on Sunday. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

As I have stated before in this thread...I have my own convictions about Catholics that I will not post here.

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So you want me to believe that in the Bible Jesus says very clearly that babies go to heaven and the Pope just missed it? I am pretty sure that dude has read the Bible, maybe even twice [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

It makes no sense especially since the Pope obviously WANTS to agree with you. Maybe you are not as good of a Bible scholar as you seem to think?

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No idea why you would think the Pope would WANT to agree with this. It makes a lot more sense that the Pope would prefer everyone to be born hopelessly sinful.

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He said that their is reason to hope that babies can go to heaven. The Pope doesn't want to pray to a god that punishes babies for eternity any more than you do.

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The Pope wants a lot of things different from what I want, and if worshipping a God that sends babies to Heaven is the best way to get them, I highly doubt he loses much sleep.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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Ummm..."liked" might not be the correct word...thought it was cornball is better. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

*sigh heavily*

Were you ever in the Boy Scouts?

If so, did you earn merit badges?

Did they give you a merit badge in woodcarving when you were actually doing archery?

Its kinda the same way with heavenly crowns. Pardon the crude analogy but since you missed it the first time....

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I think you are missing the important point. If neither of them is any better, then bringing them up in the first place is stupid. They were only brought up to try to COUNTER the argument that we should just kill people. The only reason this is a counter is because earning these extra rewards is somehow better, so depriving these people of a chance to do that is wrong. But if earning these extra rewards is NOT better (something you yourself said) then this argument is useless and nothing more than a curious distraction.

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Ok. Fine. Drop it then. But you're the one who asked about them in the first place!!!!

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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Ummm..."liked" might not be the correct word...thought it was cornball is better. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

*sigh heavily*

Were you ever in the Boy Scouts?

If so, did you earn merit badges?

Did they give you a merit badge in woodcarving when you were actually doing archery?

Its kinda the same way with heavenly crowns. Pardon the crude analogy but since you missed it the first time....

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I think you are missing the important point. If neither of them is any better, then bringing them up in the first place is stupid. They were only brought up to try to COUNTER the argument that we should just kill people. The only reason this is a counter is because earning these extra rewards is somehow better, so depriving these people of a chance to do that is wrong. But if earning these extra rewards is NOT better (something you yourself said) then this argument is useless and nothing more than a curious distraction.

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Ok. Fine. Drop it then. But you're the one who asked about them in the first place!!!!

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Right, but obviously I asked for this specific reason. Stu made it sound like there was some benefit to living and achieving milestones or something, like you get super bonus rewards in Heaven. You agreed with him, and listed them. I then pointed out that these weren't actually BENEFITS, at least not by any reasonable definition of benefit, they were just meaningless descriptors.

I asked about them, you answered, the matter was resolved (IMO) and it turns out OP is still correct, so far.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

Alright whatever...to each his own.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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Right, but obviously I asked for this specific reason. Stu made it sound like there was some benefit to living and achieving milestones or something, like you get super bonus rewards in Heaven.


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Hi Vhawk,

I didn't make it sound like anything, I flat out and said your heavenly reward is porpotional to how well you lived your life on earth(at least according to Catholics).

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I then pointed out that these weren't actually BENEFITS, at least not by any reasonable definition of benefit, they were just meaningless descriptors

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I'm sorry Vhawk, you didn't even come close to making that point...at least I couldn't find it. I guess you tried when said

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Rather than a cup or a pitcher, try my stomach versus someone with a much larger stomach. Both are full, but his contains more food. So what? In your example, it is implied that that extra absolute amount of water is useful for something. But in Heaven, it is manifestly NOT useful for anything, else the cup would suffer

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But your thinking is flawed. The extra water(the metaphor for joy in heaven) the pitcher recieves is useful to the pitcher because it fills the pitcher up. A full pitcher can experience complete joy while a partially filled pitcher can not. If you tried to put into a cup an equal amount of water that is contained in the pitcher, the cup would over flow. The water that overflows from the cup has no use to the cup(because the cup cannot contain it) but you cannot claim that extra water is useless(because it is useful to the pitcher). If the cup and pitcher are both full they both experience complete joy and cannot want to experience any additional joy. The pitcher, however, experiences more joy than the cup because it has more capacity to experience joy than the cup.

I confident that what I was taught as a catholic and what I have learned from DS, pretty much destroys all the arguments you and the OP have made. I'll let those arguments stand on there own now, I'm done with this thread. Here's your chance to get the last word in.

Stu

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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it turns out OP is still correct, so far.

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It seems to me he's still incorrect and I'm surprised we diagree.

Can you outline what you think his correct argument is? (I know it's been repeated countless times, I'm just not sure what you're defending)

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

I honestly don't remember even reading the OP but it is complete lunacy. Why people even dream such questions is beyond me. But here's my $.02.

1. What he is proposing is a sin, immoral, & a capital crime punishable by death. Next.

2. If the person is a born again Christian & guaranteed to go to heaven, when they die is immaterial. The proposed 'corruption' is immaterial.

So you would you be killing an innocent person for no reason other than to get them to heaven a nanosecond sooner. Thanks but no thanks. I'll go when God calls me.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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I honestly don't remember even reading the OP but it is complete lunacy. Why people even dream such questions is beyond me. But here's my $.02.

1. What he is proposing is a sin, immoral, & a capital crime punishable by death. Next.

2. If the person is a born again Christian & guaranteed to go to heaven, when they die is immaterial. The proposed 'corruption' is immaterial.

So you would you be killing an innocent person for no reason other than to get them to heaven a nanosecond sooner. Thanks but no thanks. I'll go when God calls me.

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1. Cool, who cares?
2. No, he is killing people who are NOT born-agains, they are children who have not yet had a chance. What % of children go on to become saved as adults, in your opinion? Well, if its less than 100%, this method is FAR better.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

Matt 18: 2-6

I don't think you understand this passage if you think jesus is saying that all children go to heaven.

as far as hell I read all your cited passages and they seem to be the same metaphorical stuff as the baby.

again the only example I find in the bible says that satan shall be tormented eternally in lake of fire, and that people who don't pass judgement will suffer "second death" by being thrown into lake of fire.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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That verse you quoted is probably from the King James Version amirite? I understand it since I grew up on a KJV. Look it up in the New Int'l Version. It'll make alot more sense.

Now you understand why the Bible is been translated so many different ways.

No, I didn't make that up. And Jesus was very clear. Like I said...look it up in the NIV & it will be easier to understand.

No, I wouldn't give $10m away. That's not what he's saying. It's kinda two fold. I interpret the camel part to mean that anything is possible with God's help. The rich part meaning if you are rich in wordly possessions so that it stands between you & a personal relationship with Jesus, then you won't see the Kingdom of Heaven. In Jesus' time, the Pharisees were the wealthy ruling class of Jews & they were arrogant & pretty much hated Jesus. So he was using that as a 'springboard' if you will for a lesson.

Don't misinterpret that though....I know alot of wealthy people who are extremely devout Christians.

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So why can't you admit that you are interpreting what Jesus said and it is your opinion? You might be wrong since a resonably person could have a differnt view. You make a good point about how you have to interpret waht Jesus said based on his time and his audience. Since these things are often not from the Bible itself but from historical records they could be wrong. I

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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He said that their is reason to hope that babies can go to heaven. The Pope doesn't want to pray to a god that punishes babies for eternity any more than you do.

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I'm 99% sure it had to do with money. eg, the family of a dead baby would have to pay the church or pay more (for burial, funeral services, baptism, etc.) depending on which way the pope set the doctrine.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

RE: Camel's and the eye of the needle.

The eye of the needle is a little doorway that was kept open when the city gates were shut after dark. A camel could still fit through, it was just very very difficult.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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I honestly don't remember even reading the OP but it is complete lunacy. Why people even dream such questions is beyond me. But here's my $.02.

1. What he is proposing is a sin, immoral, & a capital crime punishable by death. Next.

2. If the person is a born again Christian & guaranteed to go to heaven, when they die is immaterial. The proposed 'corruption' is immaterial.

So you would you be killing an innocent person for no reason other than to get them to heaven a nanosecond sooner. Thanks but no thanks. I'll go when God calls me.

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1. Cool, who cares?
2. No, he is killing people who are NOT born-agains, they are children who have not yet had a chance. What % of children go on to become saved as adults, in your opinion? Well, if its less than 100%, this method is FAR better.

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The OP does not say anything about children. Might want to read it again.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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Matt 18: 2-6

I don't think you understand this passage if you think jesus is saying that all children go to heaven.

as far as hell I read all your cited passages and they seem to be the same metaphorical stuff as the baby.

again the only example I find in the bible says that satan shall be tormented eternally in lake of fire, and that people who don't pass judgement will suffer "second death" by being thrown into lake of fire.

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Read the rest of the passages I quoted. Its pretty cut & dried.

Yeah their called parables. Jesus used alot of them in his teachings.

You're right about Satan & unbelievers spending eternity in hell. So what's your question here? Are you looking for more examples??

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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That verse you quoted is probably from the King James Version amirite? I understand it since I grew up on a KJV. Look it up in the New Int'l Version. It'll make alot more sense.

Now you understand why the Bible is been translated so many different ways.

No, I didn't make that up. And Jesus was very clear. Like I said...look it up in the NIV & it will be easier to understand.

No, I wouldn't give $10m away. That's not what he's saying. It's kinda two fold. I interpret the camel part to mean that anything is possible with God's help. The rich part meaning if you are rich in wordly possessions so that it stands between you & a personal relationship with Jesus, then you won't see the Kingdom of Heaven. In Jesus' time, the Pharisees were the wealthy ruling class of Jews & they were arrogant & pretty much hated Jesus. So he was using that as a 'springboard' if you will for a lesson.

Don't misinterpret that though....I know alot of wealthy people who are extremely devout Christians.

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So why can't you admit that you are interpreting what Jesus said and it is your opinion? You might be wrong since a resonably person could have a differnt view. You make a good point about how you have to interpret waht Jesus said based on his time and his audience. Since these things are often not from the Bible itself but from historical records they could be wrong. I

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Of course it's an interpretation. How many times have I said...in this thread no less...that there are multiple versions of the same Bible and multiple denominations out there in the world???? Can you people not read?

If you think this interpretation is incorrect, then my all means get somebody else like NotReady to take a stab at it. You won't offend me. I'm trying to get you all to read these passages for yourself so you can form your own ideas. Me giving you the answers, then defending myself isn't helping you understand Chrisitanity when most of you have never cracked open a Bible.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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He said that their is reason to hope that babies can go to heaven. The Pope doesn't want to pray to a god that punishes babies for eternity any more than you do.

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I'm 99% sure it had to do with money. eg, the family of a dead baby would have to pay the church or pay more (for burial, funeral services, baptism, etc.) depending on which way the pope set the doctrine.

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Unbelievable

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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Of course it's an interpretation. How many times have I said...in this thread no less...that there are multiple versions of the same Bible and multiple denominations out there in the world???? Can you people not read?

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The point seems to me to hinge on how certain a believer can be. I would be interested in how correct you think you are? Given you think one thing, NotReady another, the Pope something else...Are all three of those theological viewpoints equally likely to be true? If there is some doubt in your mind about some parts of your beliefs, does it diminish your confidence in the other beliefs? You have identified a number of "core" doctrines which you say all christians share, yet there are people who have gone through similar processes to you and who disagree. The fact that there is an ultimate answer is one thing. It seems to me that knowing what that answe is remains just as difficult to a theist as an atheist.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course it's an interpretation. How many times have I said...in this thread no less...that there are multiple versions of the same Bible and multiple denominations out there in the world???? Can you people not read?

[/ QUOTE ]
The point seems to me to hinge on how certain a believer can be. I would be interested in how correct you think you are? Given you think one thing, NotReady another, the Pope something else...Are all three of those theological viewpoints equally likely to be true? If there is some doubt in your mind about some parts of your beliefs, does it diminish your confidence in the other beliefs? You have identified a number of "core" doctrines which you say all christians share, yet there are people who have gone through similar processes to you and who disagree. The fact that there is an ultimate answer is one thing. It seems to me that knowing what that answe is remains just as difficult to a theist as an atheist.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am very confident in everything I have posted. I cannot speak to NR's heart because I haven't ever talked to him nor have I read all of his posts. Once again, I do not wish to discuss the Pope or the Catholic church in an open forum. But I will say that I would bet dollars to donuts that NR & myself pretty much agree on the vast majority of the scriptures & their meanings.

FWIW, I have no doubts about what I believe.

Bunny, all of the "core doctrines" you & I have discussed are straight out of the Word of God. There are only 2 core doctrines I have mentioned to you...that Jesus is the only way & there is a hell....one of which you don't believe no matter how many scriptures I show you saying otherwise.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course it's an interpretation. How many times have I said...in this thread no less...that there are multiple versions of the same Bible and multiple denominations out there in the world???? Can you people not read?

[/ QUOTE ]
The point seems to me to hinge on how certain a believer can be. I would be interested in how correct you think you are? Given you think one thing, NotReady another, the Pope something else...Are all three of those theological viewpoints equally likely to be true? If there is some doubt in your mind about some parts of your beliefs, does it diminish your confidence in the other beliefs? You have identified a number of "core" doctrines which you say all christians share, yet there are people who have gone through similar processes to you and who disagree. The fact that there is an ultimate answer is one thing. It seems to me that knowing what that answe is remains just as difficult to a theist as an atheist.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am very confident in everything I have posted. I cannot speak to NR's heart because I haven't ever talked to him nor have I read all of his posts. Once again, I do not wish to discuss the Pope or the Catholic church in an open forum. But I will say that I would bet dollars to donuts that NR & myself pretty much agree on the vast majority of the scriptures & their meanings.

FWIW, I have no doubts about what I believe.

Bunny, all of the "core doctrines" you & I have discussed are straight out of the Word of God. There are only 2 core doctrines I have mentioned to you...that Jesus is the only way & there is a hell....one of which you don't believe no matter how many scriptures I show you saying otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]
I didnt explain what I meant very well. Let me rephrase with an example maybe:

Do you believe it is a requirement of a christian to be a complete pacifist? How confident are you that you are correct in that view?

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm 99% sure it had to do with money. eg, the family of a dead baby would have to pay the church or pay more (for burial, funeral services, baptism, etc.) depending on which way the pope set the doctrine.



Unbelievable

[/ QUOTE ]

what you've never heard of indulgences? buying your way into heaven?

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm 99% sure it had to do with money. eg, the family of a dead baby would have to pay the church or pay more (for burial, funeral services, baptism, etc.) depending on which way the pope set the doctrine.



Unbelievable

[/ QUOTE ]

what you've never heard of indulgences? buying your way into heaven?

[/ QUOTE ]

PLO, u trying to level me man?? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course it's an interpretation. How many times have I said...in this thread no less...that there are multiple versions of the same Bible and multiple denominations out there in the world???? Can you people not read?

[/ QUOTE ]
The point seems to me to hinge on how certain a believer can be. I would be interested in how correct you think you are? Given you think one thing, NotReady another, the Pope something else...Are all three of those theological viewpoints equally likely to be true? If there is some doubt in your mind about some parts of your beliefs, does it diminish your confidence in the other beliefs? You have identified a number of "core" doctrines which you say all christians share, yet there are people who have gone through similar processes to you and who disagree. The fact that there is an ultimate answer is one thing. It seems to me that knowing what that answe is remains just as difficult to a theist as an atheist.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am very confident in everything I have posted. I cannot speak to NR's heart because I haven't ever talked to him nor have I read all of his posts. Once again, I do not wish to discuss the Pope or the Catholic church in an open forum. But I will say that I would bet dollars to donuts that NR & myself pretty much agree on the vast majority of the scriptures & their meanings.

FWIW, I have no doubts about what I believe.

Bunny, all of the "core doctrines" you & I have discussed are straight out of the Word of God. There are only 2 core doctrines I have mentioned to you...that Jesus is the only way & there is a hell....one of which you don't believe no matter how many scriptures I show you saying otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]
I didnt explain what I meant very well. Let me rephrase with an example maybe:

Do you believe it is a requirement of a christian to be a complete pacifist? How confident are you that you are correct in that view?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm. 100% Pacifist. No. But I do believe that God expects us to, as the old cliche says, "be the bigger person" when conflict arises. But letting someone literally walk all over you because they know you are a Christian & they probably aren't...no, I do not have that view. I don't know of any scripture off the top of my head that addresses this either...not to say there isn't one.

Bunny, I sense this whole 'pacifist thing' is an issue for you since you've mentioned it a couple of times now.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ummm. 100% Pacifist. No. But I do believe that God expects us to, as the old cliche says, "be the bigger person" when conflict arises. But letting someone literally walk all over you because they know you are a Christian & they probably aren't...no, I do not have that view. I don't know of any scripture off the top of my head that addresses this either...not to say there isn't one.

Bunny, I sense this whole 'pacifist thing' is an issue for you since you've mentioned it a couple of times now.

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Not especially, I was casting around for an illustration of the problem I see that the religious have.

So you dont believe being christian requires a belief in 100% pacifism. How confident are you that you are correct about that?

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ummm. 100% Pacifist. No. But I do believe that God expects us to, as the old cliche says, "be the bigger person" when conflict arises. But letting someone literally walk all over you because they know you are a Christian & they probably aren't...no, I do not have that view. I don't know of any scripture off the top of my head that addresses this either...not to say there isn't one.

Bunny, I sense this whole 'pacifist thing' is an issue for you since you've mentioned it a couple of times now.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not especially, I was casting around for an illustration of the problem I see that the religious have.

So you dont believe being christian requires a belief in 100% pacifism. How confident are you that you are correct about that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, Bunny other than you, nobody's ever posed that question to me. So I've never sat around & thought about it. But I'm pretty sure that isn't a requirement...why? Because (and here's the clincher) man was created in God's image, no? Says so in Genesis. God believes in punishment for those who don't believe & follow him, right? So, how can you think someone must be a 100% pacifist when God will send the unbelievers to hell when they die?? How many times in the Bible is there a recorded event of war??

Also, Christianity only requires one thing.......do I need to say what that is once again?????

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:

Quote:
I'm 99% sure it had to do with money. eg, the family of a dead baby would have to pay the church or pay more (for burial, funeral services, baptism, etc.) depending on which way the pope set the doctrine.



Unbelievable



what you've never heard of indulgences? buying your way into heaven?



PLO, u trying to level me man??

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence

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By decree of Pope Pius V in 1567, following the Council of Trent, it is forbidden to attach the receipt of an indulgence to any financial act, including the giving of alms.
...
In 1517, Pope Leo X offered indulgences for those who gave alms to rebuild St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. The aggressive marketing practices of Johann Tetzel in promoting this cause provoked Martin Luther to write his 95 theses, protesting what he saw as the purchase and sale of salvation. In thesis 28 Luther objected to a saying attributed to Tetzel: "As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs".[3] The 95 Theses not only denounced such transactions as worldly but denied the pope's right to grant pardons on God's behalf in the first place: the only thing indulgences guaranteed, Luther said, was an increase in profit and greed, because the pardon of the Church was in God's power alone.[4]


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also maybe you misunderstood me but my reading of revelation says that while it does say that satan will have eternal pain or whatever, the people who get the thumbs down on judgement day die, as in they are dead, 2nd death, it's over for them, no immortality of any kind.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:

Quote:
I'm 99% sure it had to do with money. eg, the family of a dead baby would have to pay the church or pay more (for burial, funeral services, baptism, etc.) depending on which way the pope set the doctrine.



Unbelievable



what you've never heard of indulgences? buying your way into heaven?



PLO, u trying to level me man??

[/ QUOTE ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence

[ QUOTE ]
By decree of Pope Pius V in 1567, following the Council of Trent, it is forbidden to attach the receipt of an indulgence to any financial act, including the giving of alms.
...
In 1517, Pope Leo X offered indulgences for those who gave alms to rebuild St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. The aggressive marketing practices of Johann Tetzel in promoting this cause provoked Martin Luther to write his 95 theses, protesting what he saw as the purchase and sale of salvation. In thesis 28 Luther objected to a saying attributed to Tetzel: "As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs".[3] The 95 Theses not only denounced such transactions as worldly but denied the pope's right to grant pardons on God's behalf in the first place: the only thing indulgences guaranteed, Luther said, was an increase in profit and greed, because the pardon of the Church was in God's power alone.[4]


[/ QUOTE ]

also maybe you misunderstood me but my reading of revelation says that while it does say that satan will have eternal pain or whatever, the people who get the thumbs down on judgement day die, as in they are dead, 2nd death, it's over for them, no immortality of any kind.

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I'm certainly not Catholic & I have never seen this passage you posted but obviously I agree 100% with Martin Luther. I wasn't sure if you were joking or what??

As I said before, sounds like you understood Revelation. Why don't you read the rest of the Bible?

Cliff notes for those too lazy to read it: If your name is not found in the Lamb's Book of Life, then you get to go to Hell with Satan for eternity.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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As I said before, sounds like you understood Revelation. Why don't you read the rest of the Bible?

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mostly because I can't understand it. I listen to www.georgegordon.org he has audio shows that i listen to while playing poker ok really to put me to sleep, but I don't take his word for stuff I look up stuff in the bible that he talks about. most of his stuff is economic btw, only some of it is about the bible.
One thing I found interesting is that it says in the bible to never eat fat, well what do we do, we take the fat that would be wasted and use it for hot dogs and hamburgers, and then we wonder why we have heart disease. The bible has a lot of good stuff like that, health stuff, and economic stuff as well.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
The point seems to me to hinge on how certain a believer can be. I would be interested in how correct you think you are? Given you think one thing, NotReady another, the Pope something else...Are all three of those theological viewpoints equally likely to be true? If there is some doubt in your mind about some parts of your beliefs, does it diminish your confidence in the other beliefs? You have identified a number of "core" doctrines which you say all christians share, yet there are people who have gone through similar processes to you and who disagree. The fact that there is an ultimate answer is one thing. It seems to me that knowing what that answe is remains just as difficult to a theist as an atheist.



[/ QUOTE ]

"Learn of Me", "My Yoke is easy and My burden light". Not particularly speaking to you bunny because this is what I interpret what you are saying. I agree, there have been and will continue to be contention, contradictions and paradoxes in the Christian message for it has a power of transformation for each soul. Each of us will have progressd(also regressed) to a particular state in this "knowledge" which is of the Christ Himself. But Christ is not about contention but of His Love bringing together all of mankind. This of course will take time. Logically, if it does take time, then there must be other forces acting against this movement. One of these forces is the Past which is everpresent in all of our earthly concerns. We can't escape our heritage which helps and also hinders our movement to that "Learn of Me".

This Christ Movement not only offers "knowledge" but is a "transformer of mankind". Consider that there is a movement of change of Man's physical, soul and spiritual state via the Christ Impulse. "Fixed in stone" it is not and in fact our time is only the very earliest stages of Christianity which means that Man has a way to go.

Again, the Christ Impulse is a transformative movement and ALL of Humanity is included.