Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Purely for the sake of conversation and experimentation, I just put money in my account via a debit card from a major, well known U.S. bank.

The process took less than a minute.

It appears not to be a problem to get money on WPX.

[/ QUOTE ]


My card from a decently known bank does not work for WSEX (unless things have changed, haven't tried it recently).

If I have to shop around from one bank to another just to find a card that will work for depositing then it most certainly IS still a problem.

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Purely for the sake of conversation and experimentation, I just put money in my account via a debit card from a major, well known U.S. bank.

The process took less than a minute.

It appears not to be a problem to get money on WPX.

[/ QUOTE ]


My card from a decently known bank does not work for WSEX (unless things have changed, haven't tried it recently).

If I have to shop around from one bank to another just to find a card that will work for depositing then it most certainly IS still a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it too tricky to PM jfk and kindly ask him which bank?

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why do you say this? It's a popular thread every month. Also, there were a ton of tables (by wpx standards) going tonight. I actually had a choice of which 4 tables to play (3/6 and 5/10) instead of being forced to play the 2 or 3 that were going.

[/ QUOTE ]
I too noticed the good traffic most all day, let's hope it continues.

As for people not liking this thread, there's always the haters out there for no reason. You would think they would just avoid it.

Palomino, what are your thoughts on the WSEX software? I see all these people hate on it, but personally I have no problem at all with it. Sure it's not flashy or anything, but I have found it perfectly functional from my first day on there.

BO

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have a problem with the software. I hate the bug that sometimes it automatically checks or calls on a later street if you used an autocall button on an earlier one, but more the most part it is fine. All I really care about is functionality. One thing I would really like to see though is a replay hand history like on AP...also, the ability to look at hands other than the last one played would be nice. I play so many tables and I hate having to go to PT to see them.

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

That would get in microbob's way of posting in 80% of the threads in the internet forum and never making an insightful post.

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Purely for the sake of conversation and experimentation, I just put money in my account via a debit card from a major, well known U.S. bank.

The process took less than a minute.

It appears not to be a problem to get money on WPX.

[/ QUOTE ]


My card from a decently known bank does not work for WSEX (unless things have changed, haven't tried it recently).

If I have to shop around from one bank to another just to find a card that will work for depositing then it most certainly IS still a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

My card from another well known bank did not work at first. However after I got a call from the fraud dept and assured them that it was legit it has worked fine. Bob, try giving them a call and telling them that you authorize the transaction.

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

palomino - Interesting. Thanks for the suggestion.

banzai - even if I found out the bank name I don't think I'm going to bother with opening a new account just to deposit onto WSEX. But the more I think about it the less silly this idea seems.

Seether - thanks for your support.

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I see no reason for monthly thread anymore, let this be last one, or do the same for other sites.

ToT

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you say this? It's a popular thread every month. Also, there were a ton of tables (by wpx standards) going tonight. I actually had a choice of which 4 tables to play (3/6 and 5/10) instead of being forced to play the 2 or 3 that were going.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want a thread, so important info I would like to read never sees the surface.

How you read this to mean that I don't want to read about WSEX is beyond me.


I was playing a few of those tables myself.

ToT

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I see no reason for monthly thread anymore, let this be last one, or do the same for other sites.

ToT

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you say this? It's a popular thread every month. Also, there were a ton of tables (by wpx standards) going tonight. I actually had a choice of which 4 tables to play (3/6 and 5/10) instead of being forced to play the 2 or 3 that were going.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want a thread, so important info I would like to read never sees the surface.

How you read this to mean that I don't want to read about WSEX is beyond me.


I was playing a few of those tables myself.

ToT

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

If there is something noteworthy written about WSEX it is unlikely that players will read about it in this thread.

I really see no reason for it's own thread, except for the affiliate leaches forcing it to have one in the first place.

Weak

ToT

PS: see you at the final table at the $5k added tonight [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

I'm in agreement with Havana that having a seperate thread for WSEX is probably no longer necessary.
Not as many players and not as much overall discussion about it so not as big a deal anymore imo.

The idiot-spammers can be dealt with individually. If it were to get out of hand again with a zillion WSEX threads then repeat-topics could be locked.
OR we could even say, "meh, experiment didn't go so well. Lets go back to one thread for WSEX-chat."

Still worth noting as MH said previously that even the WSEX-GM himself said he prefers the whole discussion be kept to one thread so he absolutely knows he didn't miss anything.

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

OK, here's my opinion on WSEX:

I love the WSEX software, it's fast, and I don't see any problem with it, in fact, I like it more than any other software out there.

But I sure love to have more people come in to play, I would say 9 out of the 10 players, it's good player, so it's tough environment to play at.

Improve cashout time.

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

yeah as I and others have said, just get more traffic and improve cash-out time. Now granted those are two pretty major problems at the moment, but everything else about WPEX is amazing. Software is stable and 75% rakeback is still awesome.

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fred,

You need a more "user friendly" deposit method for US players. Why no ePassport?

[/ QUOTE ]

I posted a while back about how simple and easy (and free) it is for Americans to get money on WPEX. I realize you internet freaks don't get out much, so you don't like any options that involve going outside, but please, stop saying its hard to depsit on WSEX:

::REPOST::

All American users should know, the WSEX Money Transfer option is very, very simple and easy, Here is how it works:

1. Call the 800 number provided by WSEX under the link for the Wsex Money Transfer on WSEX the website, ask for the information you need to put on the MoneyGram transfer form.

2. Go get some cash, hopefully $300+ so your transfer will be completely free of charge (wsex will credit your account the transfer fee).

3. Find a "MoneyGram" location nearest to you (look for a 'checks cashed' place, or go to the 'Moneygram' website and input your zip code), fill out the form at the Moneygram store, give them the cash, pay the small fee, keep your MoneyGram receipt.

4. Call WSEX back on that same 800 number as above and tell them the $ has been transferred from MoneyGram, give them the reference number off your MoneyGram receipt, and wait a few minutes for the Money to hit your WSEX account, plus extra $ to compensate you for the MoneyGram fee.

5. This does not involve your bank, get it?

6. Play poker and ... profit?

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

[ QUOTE ]
If there is something noteworthy written about WSEX it is unlikely that players will read about it in this thread.

I really see no reason for it's own thread, except for the affiliate leaches forcing it to have one in the first place.

Weak

ToT

PS: see you at the final table at the $5k added tonight [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, now I finally see what you are saying. I took it as you saying that WPX is basically dead so there is no need for a thread anymore. I get your point.

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

I for one am all for contributed rakeback. I know that it will help the players who play more hands and win more pots the most. That's what I'm hoping for. whether they know why or not they will perform better at WSEX, and put their money there. Dealt hand rakeback favors those of us who read this forum in the short run, but we have to look at where our poker income really comes from. It's not coming from each other. It's coming from the fun-loving gamblers out there. The same ones that Fred wants to attract because they will bet at his casino and sports book. Please look at it this way and encourage WSEX in making this change.

-MD

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

Is there any chance of a "Hide Empty Tables" button?

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

As a player with over 70k in economized rake and in the top 5 rake payers every week and several thousand placed in sports bets I will stop playing and betting on the site if it is to go to contributed rake back.

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

MD, I understand your argument but I fear the change will drive away many more players than it attracts.

It has been said a million times, the players who give us their money don't give a [censored] about rake, rakeback, PT, PAHUD or any other stuff people on here discuss all the time.

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I for one am all for contributed rakeback. I know that it will help the players who play more hands and win more pots the most. That's what I'm hoping for. whether they know why or not they will perform better at WSEX, and put their money there. Dealt hand rakeback favors those of us who read this forum in the short run, but we have to look at where our poker income really comes from. It's not coming from each other. It's coming from the fun-loving gamblers out there. The same ones that Fred wants to attract because they will bet at his casino and sports book. Please look at it this way and encourage WSEX in making this change.

-MD

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so wrongheaded.

1) Bad players, the ones a cardroom needs to survive, simply don't *think* about the difference in contributed versus dealt rakeback.

2) Bad players don't know that they're bad. They think they're good! If they hear about a change that favors "bad" players, they won't think that it will benefit them, because they are GOOD PLAYERS! Get it?

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

To add to something's argument...some of the bad players who still know something about RB would actually be benefitted by this but will THINK it hurts them significantly.
So it can even succeed in driving some of the bad players away.
Not to mention that will also help drive away some of the more aware players who really do understand how much it impacts them.

Something's statement that this was a REALLY wrongheaded argument is correct.

Contributed = looser games
 

I benefit from dealt hands rakeback, I've documented it before. But, I would be happy for them to move to contributed rakeback because I believe it will lead to better, looser games on the site.

It will lead to looser games in two ways:

1) the loosest, worst players will get more money back every week. Which means they can play more hands before going busto. Having the loosest, worst players playing more hands directly leads to looser games.

2) Knowledgeable players like myself and others who read this thread will make the correct adjustments to loosen their game. As I demonstrated in this thread the loosening is significant. Having the knowledgeable players purposefully play more hands will directly lead to looser games.

I like loose games. Everyone I know likes loose games. So, I think that a move to contributed rakeback at WPEX will be a good move for the future of the site.

Re: Contributed = looser games
 

Your argument has a big flaw. If the good players "adjust" and play a more optimal loose style, how is that really better for anyone? It's not going to make for the same kind of "loose" game you say you enjoy. It's going to be a table full of 30/25 durrrr wannabees.

Re: Contributed = looser games
 

Ben, maybe you'll actually play on the site if they make the switch, yes? There's a guy there with your 2+2 handle that I've only seen play there twice in the last month. When they do make the switch do you promise to play there everyday despite the very good chance the games won't be any looser? It would be good of you to play there daily since you're lobbying the hardest.

Re: Contributed = looser games
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your argument has a big flaw. If the good players "adjust" and play a more optimal loose style, how is that really better for anyone? It's not going to make for the same kind of "loose" game you say you enjoy. It's going to be a table full of 30/25 durrrr wannabees.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looser is better, in practically every player's eyes, IINM. Ask anyone if they would rather play on a looser table or a tighter table, and it will be a rare person who says tighter.

I certainly acknowledge that the knowledgeable players correctly loosening their standards does not convey any advantage to me in terms of my expectation in the game. Others who are less informed will not be so aware.

When a bad player sits down with a bunch of knowledgeable players correctly playing very TAG, he will recognize this fairly quickly and will not be eager to play long or return. The same player sits with a bunch of knowledgeable players playing semi-LAG TAG poker will get more action and it will be easier to for him to fool himself into thinking he has a chance.

Re: Contributed = looser games
 

[ QUOTE ]
There's a guy there with your 2+2 handle that I've only seen play there twice in the last month.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you mean BenJammin, that's me.


[ QUOTE ]
When they do make the switch do you promise to play there everyday despite the very good chance the games won't be any looser?

[/ QUOTE ]

No


[ QUOTE ]
It would be good of you to play there daily since you're lobbying the hardest.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm bringing a logical, fact-based perspective to the issue, on a forum where the participant's self interest dictates that this perspective will not be popular. I haven't posted anything on the subject for almost a month before today (and then only to correct a grossly wrong assertion), and I was only prompted too today by the ongoing onslaught of one sided posts that acknowledge no potential benefit for the site going to contributed. There is another side to the story: I'm telling it.

If you perceive that as 'heavy lobbying' that's fine, but it doesn't obligate me to play on a site where there are no games running that I want to play in.

Re: Contributed = looser games
 

Someone tries to make a case for contributed .... lets talk about known examples of sites that switched :
AP en ultimate bet ... did they get more players ? NO if anything they lost players and alot of players were very upset about the switch.
I know another site where they switched too and I play at the site, but since they switched I play alot less cash and only mtts , anyway the games became tighter actually and I can't say that there are more players now than before. Also it sucks for vip points or whatever it is called on the different sites. Contributed makes it alot tougher to gather VIP points if the structure is not changed. Actually that one site I play at did change it so you could get more points than before max 15 points instead of 1 point and you know what ? It was still tougher to get them than before.

If we on the other hand look at the sites that have been doing well .... fulltilt , pokerstars and everest all 3 use the dealt method. Yes there are of course other things involved too, but it seems to indicate that dealt method is generally preferred compared to contributed. Even the "bad" players like it more. Of course everest made a stupid decision imo then to make the lowest limits only for new players ....

That is maybe another thing for wpex : make sure your lowest limits are really low 2/4 cent and start from there. That attracts the beginning players and some of them do get better and move up.

Re: Contributed = looser games
 

[ QUOTE ]
When a bad player sits down with a bunch of knowledgeable players correctly playing very TAG, he will recognize this fairly quickly and will not be eager to play long or return.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how much you play at wsex these days, but the games aren't really that bad. It's just that there aren't enough tables open, or enough players.

This contradicts your statement that bad players will recognize that the games are tight and not stick around.

The ratio of bad players to good players is actually OK. I'm beating the games and I am really nothing special at poker.

Now, if they switch to contributed rake, I am very likely to take my 15,000-20,000 hands per month elsewhere. And I suspect other high volume players will as well. The games that are currently hanging on by a thread will die.

Fish don't often start new tables and play HU or extremely shorthanded until more seats fill in. I do. Every day.

75% rakeback ought to be a good enough gimmick to get more players to the site. They need to take that 25% they're skimming off the top now and start marketing. Making a change (from dealt to contributed) that few bad players will understand, let alone care about, and will also hurt the guys that are keeping your site alive is a bad idea IMO.

Whatever, I've said my piece. If wsex changes, I will probably leave. Good luck.

Re: Contributed = looser games
 

[ QUOTE ]
lets talk about known examples of sites that switched :
AP en ultimate bet ... did they get more players ? NO

[/ QUOTE ]

These examples are different enough from WPEX to not be comparable. Earlier I offered two ways that switching to contributed will loosen play: 1) Loose bad players get more back and so last longer and play more hands. 2) Knowledgeable players will correctly loosen up.

On AP and UB it is mainly the knowledgeable players who get
rakeback. Most bad loose players do not know about rakeback and do not receive it. So the first of my two paths to looser play is not available on those sites.

On AP and UB the amount of rakeback is significantly less than on WPEX, and so the effect of knowledgeable players correctly loosening their standards is diminished. The analysis I did on the Poker Theory board was for 100% rakeback. Cutting to 75% rakeback diminishes the loosening effect, but cutting all the way to 30% rakeback will make it close to negligible. So the second of my paths to looser games is also not in play on those sites.

I don't know anything about Everest.

Re: Contributed = looser games
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how much you play at wsex these days, but the games aren't really that bad. It's just that there aren't enough tables open, or enough players.

This contradicts your statement that bad players will recognize that the games are tight and not stick around.


[/ QUOTE ]

So now that most pros have given up on the site, it's almost dead, there are a few good games going now and again. No big surprise ... the sportsbook will supply a new bad player or two on a regular basis. Since everyone else is gone, they are not lost in a sea of TAGs and the games are ok, sometimes, when they run. That's what I see happening at this time on the site.

I persuaded two players from my home game to sign up and play on WPEX some months ago. Both did not rebuy because the games were much tougher than comparable limits at Stars or Full Tilt. I think that WPEX's tough reputation is a primary reason why it's so dead. I've heard many a 'pro' whining over the last year about how it's impossible to win there even with the rakeback ... it's definitely gotten a reputation.

So, I disagree that you have proven any contradiction. WPEX's reputation as tough site is part of what's killing it, and the loosening effect of contributed rakeback will help counter that.

Re: Contributed = looser games
 

[ QUOTE ]
So, I disagree that you have proven any contradiction. WPEX's reputation as tough site is part of what's killing it, and the loosening effect of contributed rakeback will help counter that.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you really think that the average 23/15 player bumping up to 30/23 is going to make the games seem "better" to fish?

Fish don't like when every hand is raised preflop. I'll give you that they like loose games, but they hate aggressive games.

I've been told by huge fish both live and online, "stop raising so much! Let's just limp every hand..." and so forth.

I agree that the site has a reputation for being tough and that it's a problem; I just don't think this change will address it at all.

WSEX: Hey guys, we made a change to make the games looser, come play on our site!
48/5/0.3 Player: What's the change?
WSEX: The looser players get more rakeback!
48/5/0.3 Player: Well, that won't benefit me. I'm like the next Phil Ivey.

Re: Contributed = looser games
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you really think that the average 23/15 player bumping up to 30/23 is going to make the games seem "better" to fish?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, raising is better than no action: fold fold fold bores everyone. Less folding more raising = more action. They may get pissed, but the action is addictive and extremely satisfying when you hit a hot streak.

[ QUOTE ]
WSEX: Hey guys, we made a change to make the games looser, come play on our site!

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that trying to attract players by advertising a switch to contributed would be ineffective and might even hurt more than it helps. Some simple advertising about a reload bonus would be far better.

Re: Contributed = looser games
 

Please state how many hands and what limits you have played on wpex that makes you think this change is such a great idea. The games are getting much better now and traffic is picking up in the cash games (the player count means nothing if they are all in micro games and free roll tourneys) and there has been a much wider selection of games lately.

Re: Contributed = looser games
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold fold fold bores everyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.... but the games aren't like that! If wsex can get some damn people on the site, I think they'll like the games!

Re: Contributed = looser games
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please state how many hands and what limits you have played on wpex

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's irrelevant to the logic of the argument, but since you ask, I've played semi-pro at WPEX since it went rakefree. It's been my primary site mostly since then, a couple months at the beginning and recently excepted. I have record of about 140k hands. And, back before they fixed the hand history request system I missed recording several thousand hands, so I don't know my exact number. 10/20 my favorite limit, but a lot of 5/10 and sometimes lower. I've taken a shot or two up to 30/60, but not in a while.

[ QUOTE ]
The games are getting much better now

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems quite hit or miss to me. This afternoon I played in a rocking 10/20 6max, averaged well over $100/pot, but the other 10/20 6max going was only averaging $50, which is nit tight for sure.

Right now there are two 5/10 games going one averaging $28: very tight, and the other averaging about $47, which is ok. At 3/6, one is rocking, two are nit-tight. There is no 10/20. Since the action dried up after they ran off the bots I've played a lot more at Stars, and I can tell you with certainty the games there at 5/10 and 10/20 are way juicier than WPEX.

Hey, guys, I've said my piece, no more to offer. It's no skin off my back if they stay dealt hands rakeback, but I have yet to see any one refute the logic of my argument for contributed.

Re: Contributed = looser games
 

Your logic has been partly refuted imo.

There are only a handful of players there as it is.
If they switch to contributed they will lose some of them.
They will not gain any as nobody out there is attracted enough to contributed RB to move to a site just because they got it.

If WSEX wants to hang onto as many of there few remaining players as they can then they should not switch to contributed. And obviously they should market the site a bit more as has been suggested.

Re: Contributed = looser games
 

Hey guys,

If the marketing strategy Fred mentioned is affiliates, how does the process work exactly? I mean, I understand the big ones that advertise here and at other poker sites. What are some of the other methods they employ to attract sign-ups?

How do they attract the unwashed outside of television and print ads? In all of my time spent in poker circles, I have never come across an affiliate of an affiliate, much less an affiliate.

I mentioned twice in last months thread the possibility of slick looking business cards that could be handed out to players we connect with during live play (with no feedback [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]). The brief conversations while grabbing a smoke or whatever make it difficult to articulate the benefits of playing at WPX. However, a card with the appropriate web address would be a convenient way of getting the word out.

From the numerous conversations I have had with other potential contributors, the only site they know is Full Tilt. Clearly, just talking to people isn't enough. They need something shiny and tangible to get their visual emotions involved.

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

You missed a key point of my argument, something nobody seems to think of:
"Whether they know why or not, they will perform better."
You see, they may not care or think about rake back, but they DO know where they have the best results. Maybe they think of it as their "lucky" site or some such, but they know.

-MD

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

The fish typically only notice how quickly they bust-out.

Whether they make $6 vs. $7 in RB in a given session doesn't matter to them at all and doesn't make much difference to keeping them at the site longer.

Changing it from the way most of their loyal players prefer and driving some of them away actually does effect the traffic.

Re: Contributed = looser games
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your logic has been partly refuted imo.

There are only a handful of players there as it is.
If they switch to contributed they will lose some of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree there will be a net loss of tight-playing pro/semi-pro types at first. They'll return if/when the site grows to offer reliable good games. I acknowledge that these players have value to the site and that losing them is not to be celebrated. But I think the net effect on the site of moving to contributed in the long run will be beneficial.

Re: WSEX: Official Monthly Thread: August. (#12 of 12.)
 

[ QUOTE ]
i recently withdrew most of my acct. i was a shorthanded limit grinder, but i'm switching to nl right now.

I really would like to play at wpex. I can't though.

I don't mind the software
I don't care about huds
I don't care if rb is contributed or dealt
I don't mind emailing support for Aces hands
I don't play the freerolls

but

I can't find a game. get some players and I'm back in a flash. until then, srry but I'm off to Stars.

[/ QUOTE ]

Regretfully, the same. I could give a [censored] about the 900 supposed issues. Its a great site with good software and the best deal going. Unfortunately, few games.