Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

FWIW, I do not think a single payer system is totally required. I think that what we want could be accomplished with heavier regulation of the private industry(to cut down drastically on the level of denied valid claims) and some kind of voucher system for people who have trouble affording health care to be able to purchase private plans. People below a certain income level would get the full amount, people above that amount but below the next level would get it partially subsidized. I think this might work because of the 40 million or so without health insurance, a huge chunk of them choose not to carry health insurance(young people gambling), and they should be forced to buy a plan, set up similar to the federal employee benefit system where you get to pick from a bunch. Structure it similar to Medicare Choice but without the unfunded liabilities.

We also need a federal cap on malpractice lawsuits.

I agree with John Edwards who said that the only way to cover everyone is to mandate that everyone carry coverage.

And we also need to let insurance companies charge unhealthy people more money to buy it. It is unfair to force a company to charge a 500 pound 40 year old non smoking man the same amount as they charge an 150 pound 40 year old non smoking man.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

One thing that never gets mentioned or talked about enough is the difference in demographics between the US and european countries. We are so much more overweight than them it is disgusting. That goes a huge way to explaining the differences that Moore lays out. Any universal system that does not punish people for being obese or practicing other bad habits is going to just be wasting everyones money. Why should I have to pay for someones bypass heart surgery (insert diabetes treatment, any number of other things) which they got from being 60 pounds overweight? I am very athletic and healthy, shouldn't I get to pay less for healthcare than some slob? The statistics of obesity in this country are INSANE.

What's even more annoying about Moore's method is that he completely ignores how a freer market would punish the healthcare providers which he claims are using technicalities to avoid paying for care. If you had true choice between providers and one had a track record of jerking people around, do you think they would stay in business very long? Under a universal plan there would be NO choice. It's hard to see how a system like that would keep itself in line. Moore is totally barking up the wrong tree when he talks about whether health services should be tied to profits.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
One thing that never gets mentioned or talked about enough is the difference in demographics between the US and european countries. We are so much more overweight than them it is disgusting. That goes a huge way to explaining the differences that Moore lays out. Any universal system that does not punish people for being obese or practicing other bad habits is going to just be wasting everyones money. Why should I have to pay for someones bypass heart surgery (insert diabetes treatment, any number of other things) which they got from being 60 pounds overweight? I am very athletic and healthy, shouldn't I get to pay less for healthcare than some slob? The statistics of obesity in this country are INSANE.


[/ QUOTE ]

"Sicko" actually discusses how doctors in England are given financial incentive for keeping their patients engaged in healthy lifestyles. For example, doctors receive bonuses if they convince patients to quit smoking. I don't know if there are incentive for diet and exercise, but I'm sure there could be. Also, the obesity level is strongly connected to the level of poverty in this country, which might itself be improved by providing universal healthcare.


On an unrelated note, it is remarkable how much higher quality the incidental political debate in this forum is compared with the actual "Politics" forum.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
What's even more annoying about Moore's method is that he completely ignores how a freer market would punish the healthcare providers which he claims are using technicalities to avoid paying for care. If you had true choice between providers and one had a track record of jerking people around, do you think they would stay in business very long? Under a universal plan there would be NO choice. It's hard to see how a system like that would keep itself in line. Moore is totally barking up the wrong tree when he talks about whether health services should be tied to profits.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree with your first part. if you are showing that you are playing an active role in being a healthy person that should be rewarded. however what i quoted i do not agree with. the bottom line is they are there to make a profit. Its not like hey its cheaper at zellers than walmart i will go to ellers. because there still is a profit margin trying to be maxamized by both companies.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]

"Sicko" actually discusses how doctors in England are given financial incentive for keeping their patients engaged in healthy lifestyles. For example, doctors receive bonuses if they convince patients to quit smoking.

[/ QUOTE ]

A better idea is to just charge fat people and smokers more for their healthcare. It's really, really simple. A free market would do this automatically.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, the obesity level is strongly connected to the level of poverty in this country, which might itself be improved by providing universal healthcare.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is raising everyone's taxes and immediately flushing a large portion of that money down the toilet of what is guaranteed to be a massively inefficient system going to make poor people richer?????

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]

What's even more annoying about Moore's method is that he completely ignores how a freer market would punish the healthcare providers which he claims are using technicalities to avoid paying for care. If you had true choice between providers and one had a track record of jerking people around, do you think they would stay in business very long? Under a universal plan there would be NO choice. It's hard to see how a system like that would keep itself in line. Moore is totally barking up the wrong tree when he talks about whether health services should be tied to profits.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't use the freer market, more competition argument with regard to our health care system becuase what we basically have in our semi private health care system is an oligarchy. The HMO act passed by Congress in the early 70s helped create this phenomenon, and as a result, we now have the worst of both worlds, a for profit system that is terribly inefficient and bogged down in bureuacracy. The irony of it all is that a single payer system, financed through the federal government, would actually be more efficient and less bureaucratic. Doctors would also find it a lot easier to only have to file a form to ONE payer, the fed government through a regional office, instead of having to hire 3 or 4 people JUST to deal with all the insurance paperwork like they do now.


And people who compare our system to that of Britain's, as I have seen people do, are being disingenuous. In Britain, the National Health Service is both financed and run by the government. In a single payer health care system like the one proposed by Moore and other people, this would not be the case. The system would be financed by federal and possibly state governments, but doctors would not be employed by the state and hospitals would not be state entities like is the case for both in the UK.

I do agree with whoever said that we need to charge unhealthy people more to offset the costs. Health insurance companies charge smokers more for health insurance but they can't really charge an obese person more. That is ridiculous.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

I just really cant comprehend why people want to pick up the slack for the poor/fat/unhealthy/etc of society, it doesnt make sense to me. You are rewarding people for making poor decisions seems very counter-intuitive to me.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just really cant comprehend why people want to pick up the slack for the poor/fat/unhealthy/etc of society, it doesnt make sense to me. You are rewarding people for making poor decisions seems very counter-intuitive to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

obv they are fat. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] it's the smokers who complain about paying more for their health insurance, so of course it would make sense that it's some obese people bitching about the concept of having to pay more for theirs.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

pokerbobo,

[ QUOTE ]
No, this is not a dumb opinion... every person in the US has a right to purchase healthcare... the best they can afford. Just as rich people can afford better food, homes and clothes... (all considered basic human needs) they can also afford better healthcare.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, I don't really have a strong opinion either way. I think there are benefits to both private and public health care. But...you just argued for public health care. Rich people can afford more expensive things like mansions and sports cars and designer clothing. The analogy to health care would be equally lavish and superfluous - Botox, plastic surgery, and liposuction.

[ QUOTE ]
The indians were given reservations, along with other benefits.... I know it really sucked for them, but do you really hink no one would have come here if we didnt? Do you think Hitler would have had moral issues with exterminating them? How about Stalin? Japan has very little realestate.... the indian land would have been a prime target. Therefore, it could be argued that we saved the indian bloodlines from extintion, because if it wasnt us... it would have been someone else. Again, not trying to justify the events, merely point out the other ways it could have turned out. (none of them being good for the indian population)

[/ QUOTE ]

I love how you justify America's treatment of indigenous by claiming if not us HITLER, STALIN, AND JAPANESE EMPIRES!

Also

Kyleb,

"It's worth noting that I do these things. I'm not heartless, I just think government is both inefficient and corrupt."

Are you making the claim that private companies or foundations are free from inefficiency and/or corruption?

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IE in Sweden someone making about $80k/yr is taxed 45%, max tax is 50%. Here it's 38%/38% at that level. Not *that* gigantic of a difference.

[/ QUOTE ]
7-12% sounds like a pretty big difference to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

are these dog percentage points or people percentage points?

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

I thought Bush lowered the top marginal tax rate to 35%? I don't know because I'm not in it, but that's what I thought.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
You mean BlueCrap/BlueShit ?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. first time i've heard that

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

For all the people saying wait times are exaggerated..

We're not talking about wait to see a doctor to get your arm sewn back on after the tractor accident.

We are talk refferals to specialists and MRI/other hi end test. Refferal to a neurosurgeon takes almost a year. Refferal to an orthopedist even longer.

I can walk down to the local orthopedist here, jam a fistfull of cash in his hand, and ask him to fire up his PERSONAL MRI machine and take a look.

No one thinks that Canadians are running around the ER with bloody stumps waiting for service.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

Emperor, I would rather have people have to wait a few months for elective non-medically necessary surgery than have people dying of cancer or other diseases because they don't have the money for treatment and don't have insurance. The greed displayed in this thread is astounding.

I see nothing wrong with prioritizing medical treatment.

YES people can go to the ER but they don't have to treat for transplants, cancer treatment, or anything non-emergency.

And no most orthopedists in the US wil not take cash. only insurance.

And you guys keep ignoring the fact that plenty of people in this country who DO have insurance are still getting [censored] up the ass by those companies. The insurance companies will regularly deny valid claims to add to their bottom line and many people cannot afford a lawyer to go after them for this and force them to pay. It's called BAD FAITH INSURANCE and it is a huge concern.

And you have no room to talk Emperor. You tried to deny the fact that administrative costs are much higher in the US than Canada.

And then there's all the people who are "under insured", which means that their cap on their insurance payment is so low that if they need cancer treatment or expensive tests or a long hospital stay, they can still end up getting the shaft to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Emperor, I would rather have people have to wait a few months for elective non-medically necessary surgery than have people dying of cancer or other diseases because they don't have the money for treatment and don't have insurance. The greed displayed in this thread is astounding.

I see nothing wrong with prioritizing medical treatment.

YES people can go to the ER but they don't have to treat for transplants, cancer treatment, or anything non-emergency.

And no most orthopedists in the US wil not take cash. only insurance.

And you guys keep ignoring the fact that plenty of people in this country who DO have insurance are still getting [censored] up the ass by those companies. The insurance companies will regularly deny valid claims to add to their bottom line and many people cannot afford a lawyer to go after them for this and force them to pay. It's called BAD FAITH INSURANCE and it is a huge concern.

And you have no room to talk Emperor. You tried to deny the fact that administrative costs are much higher in the US than Canada.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, those people should have gotten an education, a job, and bought some insurance.

They didn't. So they suffer the consequences.

Should society provide them a mercedes and a mansion as well?

You want to take from some people who were responsible, and give to those that weren't. That is called theft.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]

And you have no room to talk Emperor. You tried to deny the fact that administrative costs are much higher in the US than Canada.

[/ QUOTE ]

You were right, I was wrong.

Easy solution. Since the government is bureacracy is the bulk of the cost, then get rid of it. Not increase it.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Emperor, I would rather have people have to wait a few months for elective non-medically necessary surgery than have people dying of cancer or other diseases because they don't have the money for treatment and don't have insurance. The greed displayed in this thread is astounding.

I see nothing wrong with prioritizing medical treatment.

YES people can go to the ER but they don't have to treat for transplants, cancer treatment, or anything non-emergency.

And no most orthopedists in the US wil not take cash. only insurance.

And you guys keep ignoring the fact that plenty of people in this country who DO have insurance are still getting [censored] up the ass by those companies. The insurance companies will regularly deny valid claims to add to their bottom line and many people cannot afford a lawyer to go after them for this and force them to pay. It's called BAD FAITH INSURANCE and it is a huge concern.

And you have no room to talk Emperor. You tried to deny the fact that administrative costs are much higher in the US than Canada.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, those people should have gotten an education, a job, and bought some insurance.

They didn't. So they suffer the consequences.

Should society provide them a mercedes and a mansion as well?

You want to take from some people who were responsible, and give to those that weren't. That is called theft.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please spare me your simplistic taxation is theft libertarian argument. It is old and distracts from the true debate in this thread. This thread is about health care. I'm tired of you people bringing that argument into every thread about every government program or idea.

If I win the genetic lottery and am born to millionaires, and you lose and are born to a crack whore mother and have no father raising you, I should just say [censored] you and let you die? It's not society's responsibility to provide health care for people so that they don't die prematurely?

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Emperor, I would rather have people have to wait a few months for elective non-medically necessary surgery than have people dying of cancer or other diseases because they don't have the money for treatment and don't have insurance. The greed displayed in this thread is astounding.

I see nothing wrong with prioritizing medical treatment.

YES people can go to the ER but they don't have to treat for transplants, cancer treatment, or anything non-emergency.

And no most orthopedists in the US wil not take cash. only insurance.

And you guys keep ignoring the fact that plenty of people in this country who DO have insurance are still getting [censored] up the ass by those companies. The insurance companies will regularly deny valid claims to add to their bottom line and many people cannot afford a lawyer to go after them for this and force them to pay. It's called BAD FAITH INSURANCE and it is a huge concern.

And you have no room to talk Emperor. You tried to deny the fact that administrative costs are much higher in the US than Canada.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, those people should have gotten an education, a job, and bought some insurance.

They didn't. So they suffer the consequences.

Should society provide them a mercedes and a mansion as well?

You want to take from some people who were responsible, and give to those that weren't. That is called theft.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please spare me your simplistic taxation is theft libertarian argument. It is old and distracts from the true debate in this thread. This thread is about health care. I'm tired of you people bringing that argument into every thread about every government program or idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes and I am tired of thieves trying to steal and then justify it.


FWIW... I currently am UNINSURED. Its expensive, but I sure as hell don't want the government to steal from my neighbor so that I can receive treatment. I'd rather die first than to be a thief..

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Emperor, I would rather have people have to wait a few months for elective non-medically necessary surgery than have people dying of cancer or other diseases because they don't have the money for treatment and don't have insurance. The greed displayed in this thread is astounding.

I see nothing wrong with prioritizing medical treatment.

YES people can go to the ER but they don't have to treat for transplants, cancer treatment, or anything non-emergency.

And no most orthopedists in the US wil not take cash. only insurance.

And you guys keep ignoring the fact that plenty of people in this country who DO have insurance are still getting [censored] up the ass by those companies. The insurance companies will regularly deny valid claims to add to their bottom line and many people cannot afford a lawyer to go after them for this and force them to pay. It's called BAD FAITH INSURANCE and it is a huge concern.

And you have no room to talk Emperor. You tried to deny the fact that administrative costs are much higher in the US than Canada.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, those people should have gotten an education, a job, and bought some insurance.

They didn't. So they suffer the consequences.

Should society provide them a mercedes and a mansion as well?

You want to take from some people who were responsible, and give to those that weren't. That is called theft.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please spare me your simplistic taxation is theft libertarian argument. It is old and distracts from the true debate in this thread. This thread is about health care. I'm tired of you people bringing that argument into every thread about every government program or idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes and I am tired of thieves trying to steal and then justify it.


FWIW... I currently am UNINSURED. Its expensive, but I sure as hell don't want the government to steal from my neighbor so that I can receive treatment. I'd rather die first than to be a thief..

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I suppose you never went to public schools on other people's tax money... never drove on public roads that the richest people contributed more $ to...

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

There is a huge difference between saying someone has a right to receive decent health care and saying that someone has a right to a fancy car or big house. The fact that you equate all government programs based on theft shows you have a nuanced understanding of the issues involved.

Even though I'm usually inherently distrustful of most government interventions into the market doesn't mean that I can't recognize when a market is failing to provide a "good" (health care) to a large portion of the population. The U.S. is the wealthiest nation in the world, yet the WHO ranks as having the 37th best health care system in the world = something is amiss.

The market exists to serve us, and not the other way around. If the government "stealing" from people means that an extra 40 million people in this country have access to health care, then I'm fine with that. Last I checked, murder was a much bigger crime than larceny.

Furthermore, taxes really aren't theft. If you don't wish to pay them, you can go to a different country that has fewer taxes or spends tax dollars in a way you find appropriate. If my landlord raises rent, it's not theft - it's the marketplace in action. If I don't like the raise in rent, I can either leave or pay up. How are taxes any different?

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

seriously. youll never hear me advocate that everyone needs t o live in at least a 4 bedroom house or driev a certain model car. it is not the job of govt to make everyone's standard of living equal. IT IS govt's job imo to make sure everyone has a minimum standard of living, ie adequate health care and at least some opportunity to better themselves through education to kind of level the playing field, because some people start off way ahead of others in the game of life. i do not begrudge rich people their wealth/income at all.

it's no coincidence that most well-off people tend to vote more republican. they have got theirs so what do they care about the poor? until they get laid off and develop leukemia and need a transplant but can't afford it, then they lose their house and car and need to go to a homeless shelter, but oh wait, there aren't any because the republicans cut the funding. don't think that hasn't happened to people.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

You are a genius. The difference between an adult and a child is that an adult can often make a choice a child cannot. While as an adult I am personally against government controlled primary education. I am not opposed to its funding.

I am not an ACist and I believe Government funding for infrastructure can progress society faster than private funding. I beleive education to be included in infrastructure. A voucher system would be ideal imo.

Back to the topic:

Health care is solveable through the free market. While some might need help, dependent children, elderly, disabled, there is no reason my neighbor should help pay for my healthcare when I was too irresponsible to take care of it myself.

Best Wishes, Emperor

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are a genius. The difference between an adult and a child is that an adult can often make a choice a child cannot. While as an adult I am personally against government controlled primary education. I am not opposed to its funding.

I am not an ACist and I believe Government funding for infrastructure can progress society faster than private funding. I beleive education to be included in infrastructure. A voucher system would be ideal imo.

Back to the topic:

Health care is solveable through the free market. While some might need help, dependent children, elderly, disabled, there is no reason my neighbor should help pay for my healthcare when I was too irresponsible to take care of it myself.

Best Wishes, Emperor

[/ QUOTE ]

what about the health care of children? i suppose you support government funding of that if it is necessary to ensure they are al covered? if you don't, you're a total hypocrite.

anyway, i don't share your crude philosophy of children vs adults. i feel like everyone is entitled to a minimum standard of living and that no one should be without a roof over their head(whether it's in a shelter or a house), food to eat(doesn't have to be 4 star, just something nutritious so they don't starve), and health care to keep them healthy. why are these concepts so foreign to so many people?

btw, it's no coincidence that life expectancy has increased as the govt has gotten more and more involved in health care. life expectancy has increased greatly from the 1960s till today.

you can call me a rockefeller republican. nelson rockefeller is my political idol and it's too bad that the republican party has veered so far to the right. mike bloomberg is also good.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]


Health care is solveable through the free market. While some might need help, dependent children, elderly, disabled, there is no reason my neighbor should help pay for my healthcare when I was too irresponsible to take care of it myself.



[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, so you're basically defending the status quo system of Medicaid and Medicare? If you're not, in what ways is your vision of healthcare different from the status quo?

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I must admit I'm moving into the school of thought that health care is a right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know what it is called when you believe you have a "right" to that which must be produced by someone else's labor?

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just really cant comprehend why people want to pick up the slack for the poor/fat/unhealthy/etc of society, it doesnt make sense to me. You are rewarding people for making poor decisions seems very counter-intuitive to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stupid juvenile diabetics. Pick a better pancreas next time! Morons.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I must admit I'm moving into the school of thought that health care is a right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know what it is called when you believe you have a "right" to that which must be produced by someone else's labor?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me guess... theft?

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just really cant comprehend why people want to pick up the slack for the poor/fat/unhealthy/etc of society, it doesnt make sense to me. You are rewarding people for making poor decisions seems very counter-intuitive to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stupid juvenile diabetics, pick a better pancreas! Morons.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok suzzer, no one is talking about them. i didn't even see guids mentioned diabetes. but you cannot deny the huge link between obesity and type II diabetes.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I must admit I'm moving into the school of thought that health care is a right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know what it is called when you believe you have a "right" to that which must be produced by someone else's labor?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me guess... theft?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking of slavery, but, six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I must admit I'm moving into the school of thought that health care is a right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know what it is called when you believe you have a "right" to that which must be produced by someone else's labor?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me guess... theft?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking of slavery, but, six of one, half a dozen of the other.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know what it's called when you people constantly derail by threads by bringing the old libertarian canards into every discussion?

Tr-l-ing

Fill in the blanks.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just really cant comprehend why people want to pick up the slack for the poor/fat/unhealthy/etc of society, it doesnt make sense to me. You are rewarding people for making poor decisions seems very counter-intuitive to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stupid juvenile diabetics, pick a better pancreas! Morons.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok suzzer, no one is talking about them. i didn't even see guids mentioned diabetes. but you cannot deny the huge link between obesity and type II diabetes.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're advocating some kind of health care system that takes care of juvenile diabetics but kicks type II to the curb? Or are we just saying screw both because the fatties ruin it for everyone?

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]

Do you know what it is called when you believe you have a "right" to that which must be produced by someone else's labor?

[/ QUOTE ]

A basic gut-check to see if you're a human being that is capable of empathy?

*GASP* I'd have to steal from wealthy people to ensure that the indigent have at least a faint glimmer of hope of receiving medical treatment within the decade. Do you honestly think that keeps me up at night?

There's a reason why Robin Hood is an iconic hero figure and Ebenezer Scrooge isn't.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I must admit I'm moving into the school of thought that health care is a right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know what it is called when you believe you have a "right" to that which must be produced by someone else's labor?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me guess... theft?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking of slavery, but, six of one, half a dozen of the other.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know what it's called when you people constantly derail by threads by bringing the old SOCIALIST canards into every discussion?

Tr-l-ing

Fill in the blanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you know what it's called when you people constantly derail by threads by bringing the old libertarian canards into every discussion?

[/ QUOTE ]

So instead of having to refute those points, you'd rather just not let them be part of the discussion? huh?

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Do you know what it is called when you believe you have a "right" to that which must be produced by someone else's labor?

[/ QUOTE ]

A basic gut-check to see if you're a human being that is capable of empathy?

*GASP* I'd have to steal from wealthy people to ensure that the indigent have at least a faint glimmer of hope of receiving medical treatment within the decade. Do you honestly think that keeps me up at night?

There's a reason why Robin Hood is an iconic hero figure and Ebenezer Scrooge isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes theives are much more popular than a philanthropists. (Scrooge gave his money away in the end LDO.)

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

ZOMG I'm a slave I get it. Being in the richest and most powerful country in the history of mankind totally suxorz because I have to give my money to some entity that I got to elect so they could allocate it to solve societal problems as they see fit. Instead, let's place our faith in the benevolent corporations of America as they would never lie, cheat, or deceive their shareholders. Oh wait, except they do, ALL THE TIME. We have a dedicated government agency to root out corporate malfeasance (ZOMG the SEC sucks too) and it still happens all the time. At least there's some semblance of checks and balances in our government.

Also, for those Ayn-Rand lovers in the house, what is the alternative health care system you're proposing? Just let the private market handle it and write a few cards to orphans and people unlucky enough to lose the genetic lottery?

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

Dammit, I knew it was just a matter of time before the AC hijackers sniffed this out.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you know what it's called when you people constantly derail by threads by bringing the old libertarian canards into every discussion?

[/ QUOTE ]

So instead of having to refute those points, you'd rather just not let them be part of the discussion? huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

you CAN'T refute the points because it's an OPINION that simply will not change. If someone believes taxation is theft, nothing you can say or do will change that. Fortunately these people are a minority in the real world. Not on 2+2 obviously.

How can i refute it? You guys don't want to discuss the practical objections to universal health care, just the moral ones.

And like the previous poster said, what your position comes down to is if you don't win the genetic lottery, and are unlucky and born into a very poor family, you are [censored], and deserve no boost.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

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Do you know what it is called when you believe you have a "right" to that which must be produced by someone else's labor?

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A basic gut-check to see if you're a human being that is capable of empathy?

*GASP* I'd have to steal from wealthy people to ensure that the indigent have at least a faint glimmer of hope of receiving medical treatment within the decade. Do you honestly think that keeps me up at night?

There's a reason why Robin Hood is an iconic hero figure and Ebenezer Scrooge isn't.

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If you take a serious look at the libertarian belief system, you will find that people believe in it because they have taken a serious look at economics and how the federal government actually works, and who it actually benefits, and they have realized that those institutions work against the poor. High taxes that supposedly go to education/whatever, the minimum wage, all those things hurt poor people. I am not a libertarian for greedy reasons, I am one because I think everyone in society would be better off with less government influence.

As for what would happen to orphans or "people who lost the genetic lottery", there is no reason that altruism or charity would not exist in a libertarian society. Absolutely none. If I didn't have to pay the government so much in taxes to pay for wars, 50,000 nuclear warheads, pork spending, etc, I would give a lot more to charity. And when individuals give money to charity, they can discriminate between the ones which will spend the money efficiently and the ones that don't. Under our system, it all goes to the government no matter what you think about it and there is no recourse against them wasting it all.

Re: Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question
 

The 2+2 genus of libertarian is the least persuasive I've encountered. If you want to convert people to your line of thinking, the "taxes=slavery" arg ain't gonna do it.

Instead, say things like the "free market can solve the healthcare crisis by X,Y, and Z" and "in the past, government intervention into health care has produced (insert negative event here). This is pretty basic persuasion 101 here folks.

Talk about the free-market proposals to alleviate the health care crisis and stop derailing/hijacking/trolling this thread.