Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

MyironThumb: [ QUOTE ]
But have these players only been found at 1/2 full ring? I dont have a single hand on any of them at 1/2 6max FWIW

[/ QUOTE ]

The choice of a bot programmer to play 1/2 full ring is simple, I suspect it's easier to program a succesful set-mining nit bot, as opposed to a strong shorthanded LAG bot.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
Alobar:[ QUOTE ]
They obviously dont want to get rid of the bots, they just want to appear to care to ease the concerns of the players, but keep right on getting the rake the bots generate.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not necessarily in the short-term interest of a site to remove the bots. 1) Extensive banning would frighten the casual player when the news spreads out. 2) Bots generate lots of rake. 3) A poker site has limited resources so investigating these claims are "wasteful" from the financial and labor point of view.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah. Hell if I ran a site I wouldnt care either. Its butts in the seats and it's alot of money in my pocket. And it doesnt matter if I dont fix the problem because people are still going to play anyway. They'll bitch and moan about bots but they keep right on playing. Look at party poker, horrible customer service, keep raising rake, everyone hated them, yet we still kept right on lining up to play. We (the user base) have shown the sites time and time again that they can do whatever they want and we will still keep coming back for more. The bot issue is no different.

So its not like they are worried about long term consequences either, becuase they know there really arent any. All they have to do is appear to care and make it seem like its safe, and thats good enough for the typical player. Hell the typical player(fish) is soo clueless its funny. They play online poker even tho they "know" its 100% rigged, they havent got a clue about the reality of the situation, and they obviously don't care. and as long as they keep playing there so will we. And the sites know this. I bet they sit around and laugh at all our "im withdrawing all my money right now!" comments. Where are we going to go? Just to some other site that has bots, only they do a better job of making it seem like they care.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
FTP deserves a mass boycott IMO. The OP has given them a long time to address this issue, but a satisfactory response is completely lacking.

[/ QUOTE ]

The first step should not be to boycott, it should be to demand an explanation.

I've already PMed FTPDoug. If the next time he logged in his mailbox had 100 PMs from 2p2ers demanding an official explanation, it would send a clear signal.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

yeah, table dynamics etc play a lot less of a role in FR

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

Everyone - also consider that this is JUST at NL100 because that is all trebek was looking at.

Anyone think this guy might have other bots doing the same thing at NL50, NL25 and perhaps even NL200 and NL400?

He doesn't want them to play against each other so he spreads out different bots to different stakes?

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
MyironThumb: [ QUOTE ]
But have these players only been found at 1/2 full ring? I dont have a single hand on any of them at 1/2 6max FWIW

[/ QUOTE ]

The choice of a bot programmer to play 1/2 full ring is simple, I suspect it's easier to program a succesful set-mining nit bot, as opposed to a strong shorthanded LAG bot.

[/ QUOTE ]


Also play a lot of 6 max on Full Tilt and don't have any hands on any of these guys. Guess they don't play 6 max. Interesting thread though, hope they get shut down if its true.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

3. When there are tons of tables to play it's natural to avoid other regs. Anyone with half a brain does this. If you want me to find some HH's with more than one of these "bots" sitting together I'm sure I could manage to do so.

If you can, please do. That would be a big argument against OP's post.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
Consider this:A group of friends all play similar styles and play in a room together on the same IP address.That would explain why they never sit at the same tables,for fear of callusion flags.Isn't it possible for them to have a winning strategy,and help each other out? If there were bots on Full Tilt,they would remove them,case closed.I've personally seen them chat plenty,and have chatted with them myself.We should all be able to exploit ANY bot,and the fact that they keep winning makes me think that they aren't.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not only are there no spaces after punctuation in your sentances,but there is very little logic,or thought in them either.In fact most of your points are quite laughable.These are more than just similar styles,they are indentical.And these pals in their little room never,ever, never play at the same tables.And they never take a shot at 6 max once in a while for kicks.Consider this:They are bots.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
Consider this:A group of friends all play similar styles and play in a room together on the same IP address.That would explain why they never sit at the same tables,for fear of callusion flags.Isn't it possible for them to have a winning strategy,and help each other out? If there were bots on Full Tilt,they would remove them,case closed.I've personally seen them chat plenty,and have chatted with them myself.We should all be able to exploit ANY bot,and the fact that they keep winning makes me think that they aren't.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, are you the programmer?

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Consider this:A group of friends all play similar styles and play in a room together on the same IP address.That would explain why they never sit at the same tables,for fear of callusion flags.Isn't it possible for them to have a winning strategy,and help each other out? If there were bots on Full Tilt,they would remove them,case closed.I've personally seen them chat plenty,and have chatted with them myself.We should all be able to exploit ANY bot,and the fact that they keep winning makes me think that they aren't.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, are you the programmer?

[/ QUOTE ]

naw, im sure he regged on this day and made his first post in this thread to argue against it is entirely a coincidence

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

Laughable? No,this whole thread is laughable.THE SKY IS FALLING!! Trust me when I tell you that these are,in fact, NOT bots.Just a very determined group with a great strategy.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just checked in my PT database and over 30,000 hands for each of these players, they have never recorded a single pot with each other.


[/ QUOTE ]

Now that is definitely interesting. Do your numbers on each player match those of the OP?

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
Laughable? No,this whole thread is laughable.THE SKY IS FALLING!! Trust me when I tell you that these are,in fact, NOT bots.Just a very determined group with a great strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, we have found the bot owner.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

I just noticed that Viper changed his mind. Anyways it bothers me when people just ignore these bot issues as something that could never happen. Bot infestations could easily ruin online poker for good. And with FTP showing they are too incompetent to do anything about it then it certainly doesn't look good for the smaller sites with even worse customer support.

Good work OP for doing all of this research. It's a bit frustrating to see that nothing will be done by FTP though. Well I will never play at that site, what a joke.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

I mostly ignored bot issues because I agreed with the popular sentiment at the time that it was just too complicated to program a bot to play well at an kind of meaningful stakes.

I wonder why this would be compared with ALL the calculations a chess-bot can perform or even how half-decently I assume some of the players are on Turbo-Holdem or one of the WSOP video-game things (where you play against Ferguson or Hachem or whoever).

But people around here convinced me otherwise that it just wasn't realistic at that time for a bot to do well.


Then I saw evidence to the contrary in various threads and used my incredible skills of reasoning and open-mindedness to look at the situation anew.


It's not that tough to have PREVIOUSLY thought bots weren't very realistic and then to open your eyes and realize you might have been wrong.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not only are there no spaces after punctuation in your sentances,but there is very little logic,or thought in them either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thread highjack to say this was awesome.

We now return to your regularly scheduled program.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
Upon further investigation, I retract a couple of my statements and agree with the OP a great deal more. I definitely still remember talking with 1forthethumb and mariojr on more than one occasion, but I just checked in my PT database and over 30,000 hands for each of these players, they have never recorded a single pot with each other.

Sorry for ripping on your claims without solid proof to the contrary OP.

I feel sick.

[/ QUOTE ]

This scares me even more than the original post.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
Trust me when I tell you that these are,in fact, NOT bots.Just a very determined group with a great strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, the group all decides to start playing at the same time, leave at the same time. Does the group all go to the bathroom at the same time as well?

If it was a group of people, they would be coming and going at different times. If it's a group of people who work in shifts running all the accounts, then it's against FT's policy to have multiple accounts.

Either way, one cheater or many, not much difference, but FT doesn't care as long as the rake keeps coming in.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

If it were a group of people, wouldn't they be sitting at THE SAME table and sharing their cards?

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

It looks like three of them played in the same MTT on Full Tilt on Feb. 2 -- 1forthethumb, mariojr, and full_tilting. Obviously, whether they were ZeeJustin'ing is irrelevant to whether they ever sat together in cash games, but it makes me wonder if anyone would try to use MTT bots.

Edit: link
http://www.officialpokerrankings.com/ful...37549B3F15.html

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Alobar:[ QUOTE ]
They obviously dont want to get rid of the bots, they just want to appear to care to ease the concerns of the players, but keep right on getting the rake the bots generate.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not necessarily in the short-term interest of a site to remove the bots. 1) Extensive banning would frighten the casual player when the news spreads out. 2) Bots generate lots of rake. 3) A poker site has limited resources so investigating these claims are "wasteful" from the financial and labor point of view.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah. Hell if I ran a site I wouldnt care either. Its butts in the seats and it's alot of money in my pocket. And it doesnt matter if I dont fix the problem because people are still going to play anyway. They'll bitch and moan about bots but they keep right on playing. Look at party poker, horrible customer service, keep raising rake, everyone hated them, yet we still kept right on lining up to play. We (the user base) have shown the sites time and time again that they can do whatever they want and we will still keep coming back for more. The bot issue is no different.

So its not like they are worried about long term consequences either, becuase they know there really arent any. All they have to do is appear to care and make it seem like its safe, and thats good enough for the typical player. Hell the typical player(fish) is soo clueless its funny. They play online poker even tho they "know" its 100% rigged, they havent got a clue about the reality of the situation, and they obviously don't care. and as long as they keep playing there so will we. And the sites know this. I bet they sit around and laugh at all our "im withdrawing all my money right now!" comments. Where are we going to go? Just to some other site that has bots, only they do a better job of making it seem like they care.

[/ QUOTE ]
This isn't completely true. Look at PokerRoom and the Prima network. Both have had some VERY big problems with customer service and people getting their money, and as a result of that there are very few people "in the know" of online poker (e.g. 2+2ers) that play there.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

Good luck at the tables,folks. Guess I won't post anymore, getting shredded for having a different opinion. That's the only way I can explain why FT let these guys back on, but here's to being close-minded...Cheers!

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
Consider this:A group of friends all play similar styles and play in a room together on the same IP address.That would explain why they never sit at the same tables,for fear of callusion flags.Isn't it possible for them to have a winning strategy,and help each other out? If there were bots on Full Tilt,they would remove them,case closed.I've personally seen them chat plenty,and have chatted with them myself.We should all be able to exploit ANY bot,and the fact that they keep winning makes me think that they aren't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think everyone has considered and dismissed this as the reasoning. When considering the stats, timing, time they play, etc. it does not equal 3 nerds in a room only playing when the others are playing and waiting 15 seconds on every decision.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[censored]!

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
I mostly ignored bot issues because I agreed with the popular sentiment at the time that it was just too complicated to program a bot to play well at an kind of meaningful stakes.

I wonder why this would be compared with ALL the calculations a chess-bot can perform or even how half-decently I assume some of the players are on Turbo-Holdem or one of the WSOP video-game things (where you play against Ferguson or Hachem or whoever).

But people around here convinced me otherwise that it just wasn't realistic at that time for a bot to do well.


Then I saw evidence to the contrary in various threads and used my incredible skills of reasoning and open-mindedness to look at the situation anew.


It's not that tough to have PREVIOUSLY thought bots weren't very realistic and then to open your eyes and realize you might have been wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah Bob, I agree with you. Just to be clear, I was never too worried about NL bots either until this thread. But on the other hand I never agreed with the sentiment that it would be impossible to program a winning NL bot.

To be honest my style is fairly robotic most of the time and that seems to be good enough to have a solid winrate at 200NL 6max. I know that to succeed at higher levels against better players would require more complicated logic though.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

Seems like we do have the bot-programmer in the thread or someone affiliated with him, because only a retard would argue these players aren't bots. This whole gang of friends would checkraise ONLY against one player on the entire network, that's what you are saying? Also, given they have such an exact identitical nature every decisions should be made within an instant, so why would these individuals take 10-15 seconds for every decsions, that would just lose them money.

OP: Very, very good work here, one of the most interesting posts I've read on 2p2 in a long time. It's so obvious that FTP is trying to cover this up since the whole idea of "BOTS PLAYING ONLINE POKER; THEY ARE HERE NOW" would be such a blow to online poker that nobody knows what effect it could have. I'm just at a loss for words of how unprofessional FTP-support is.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
[censored]!

[/ QUOTE ]

???... but the same to you, lol

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know that to succeed at higher levels against better players would require more complicated logic though.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Complicated logic" is the forte of a computer program.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know that to succeed at higher levels against better players would require more complicated logic though.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Complicated logic" is the forte of a computer program.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it isn't, but I think I know what you mean.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good luck at the tables,folks. Guess I won't post anymore, getting shredded for having a different opinion. That's the only way I can explain why FT let these guys back on, but here's to being close-minded...Cheers!

[/ QUOTE ]

WHAT THE [censored] GUYS YOU ALWAYS DO THIS

WHENEVER THE NEXT JOHNATHAN CHAN RUNS UP TO TWO PLUS TWO YOU SCARE HIM AWAY BY BEING RUDE

C;MON GUYS

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

people should withdraw their funds from fpt for now and link their emails to this thread, make sure they know why you are withdrawing.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
people should withdraw their funds from fpt for now and link their emails to this thread, make sure they know why you are withdrawing.

[/ QUOTE ]

this way 6 months from now when the bots have all the fish's $ we can get our checks

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

All 3 bots (1forhtethumb hasn't played for awhile) yesterday.
None of them have played today (not yet at least)

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
Laughable? No,this whole thread is laughable.THE SKY IS FALLING!! Trust me when I tell you that these are,in fact, NOT bots.Just a very determined group with a great strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]


LOLOLOL. Hurry back to Full Tilt and try to get your funds off there before all your bot accounts get frozen playa.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
All 3 bots (1forhtethumb hasn't played for awhile) yesterday.
None of them have played today (not yet at least)


[/ QUOTE ]

What time do they normally play?

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

"1forthethumb" and "mariojr"??? LOL

Sounds like the work of some CMU geeks (or some other Pittsburgh sports fan(s) ).

For those unfamiliar with Pittsburgh sports lore-- the Steelers had 4 Super Bowl victories/rings until 2006; enough for each finger of the hand but the thumb. From the 1980's to 2006 the Steeler fans' rallying cry was "One for the thumb".

As for "mariojr"-- back in the mid 1990's, someone noticed that 2nd banana Penguins hockey star Jaromir Jagr's first name was an anagram for "Mario Jr."-- as in Mario Lemieux. [Sorry if this is obvious to everyone-- I just figured that not everyone here follows Pittsburgh sports and some might not have caught the connection].

I'm no FBI profiler, but makes sense to me that this is the work of some college math/poker geeks at a techy school like CMU and the connection that two of the suspected bots' names have is highly suspicious.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

I just have a little faith in the system. If they froze their accounts,then let them back on, I assume that they aren't. You can have your conspiricy theories, I choose to have my own opinions. Believe me when I tell you I'm NOT a programmer, I wish I was that smart. Please don't shred someone for having a differing opinion,though, that is what forums are all about. Cheers..

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

Which sites are recommended to be the least likely to be bot infested?

Thanks for any info, guys.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
the connection that two of the suspected bots' names have is highly suspicious.


[/ QUOTE ]

I was unaware of both, thanks for filling me in.

Re: NL Bots on Full Tilt
 

I'm impressed with your detective skillz. well done