Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

in response to sucker's post. there is a restaurant in santa cruz called shadowbrook that is generally considered to be the best fine dining place in the county. i have went a few times, and their food is pretty good, but not amazing. However, the service was just way too snotty. I mean its nice that you put my napkin in my lap and say "excuse my reach" everytime you pour water for the person next to me, but to just constantly be hovering around and doing the whole overbearing service thing was just weak. I havent been back since high school.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

octopi,

I love being adventurous at restaurants. After all, I don't like eating at restaurants what I could make at home. Ironically, I think it's very difficult to get truly out of the ordinary food at these types of places. Take spicy food, for example. Most high-end restaurants are fairly pedestrian in terms of how they spice the food. This kind of makes sense because they would hate to burn off some Kennedy's sinuses, but I like spicy food. Many dishes are supposed to be SPICY. They often aren't. That sucks.

I just find that most destination restaurants don't do it for me. I guess I'm hard to please. And yes, I've been to many "great" restaurants.

The fact that most people would ever tolerate ANY kind of snobby service at an expensive restaurant is pretty pathetic in itself and symptomatic of a larger dining societal problem. HOW COULD YOU TOLERATE THIS TO EXIST? If the dude at Jiffy Lube treated you half as bad as some of these waitstaffs, you'd have a stroke, yet we just write off these experiences at fancy restaurants as unfortunate. THEY ARE SELLING THE EXPERIENCE. That's weak-sauce.

I think I'm pretty much done with it.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

FFK,

Wow, GREAT review, sounds outstanding. A couple of comments.

"Foie Gras Terrine ... Sadly I discovered I hate foie gras and consider to be comparable to spam"

Don't give up yet. Next time you're at a nice restaurant that has a simple seared foie gras, give it a try. At Gary Danko it's "Seared Foie Gras with Caramelized Red Onions and Fuji Apples." It'll often be served like that accompanied by something a little sweet. This is far more delicious and completely different than a terrine preparation. Give it a try, those geese and ducks work very hard to make the foie gras that tasty for you!

"I would give anything to be able to recreate the almond milk."

Noted. I'm getting to work on my almond milk technique.

"The dessert wine was very sweet and almost seem syrupy if that is possible."

Yeah, that is definitely possible. Dessert wines can range from something that tastes like a slightly sweeter regular wine all the way to very intensely sweet and syrupy.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Firstyearclay,
I've been to Berns is is an awesome dining experience and one of the few steaks I would consider top tier.

I think Berns is one of the best dining experiences I have ever had. Although I ordered steak tartar and learned the hard way that I just don't enjoy it. My steak was very good, but I still have had two better H60 as mentioned and LG's in Palm Springs.

Also FFK I would try Foie Gras again it is one of my favorite foods.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
octopi,

I love being adventurous at restaurants. After all, I don't like eating at restaurants what I could make at home. Ironically, I think it's very difficult to get truly out of the ordinary food at these types of places. Take spicy food, for example. Most high-end restaurants are fairly pedestrian in terms of how they spice the food. This kind of makes sense because they would hate to burn off some Kennedy's sinuses, but I like spicy food. Many dishes are supposed to be SPICY. They often aren't. That sucks.

I just find that most destination restaurants don't do it for me. I guess I'm hard to please. And yes, I've been to many "great" restaurants.

The fact that most people would ever tolerate ANY kind of snobby service at an expensive restaurant is pretty pathetic in itself and symptomatic of a larger dining societal problem. HOW COULD YOU TOLERATE THIS TO EXIST? If the dude at Jiffy Lube treated you half as bad as some of these waitstaffs, you'd have a stroke, yet we just write off these experiences at fancy restaurants as unfortunate. THEY ARE SELLING THE EXPERIENCE. That's weak-sauce.

I think I'm pretty much done with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you've been to many "great" restaurants and continue to find them "snobby", then I think the problem may be you, not them. Of all the top restaurants I've ever been to, I've only found one "snobby" - La Toque in Rutherford (Napa), California. Those people had an attitude and I didn't appreciate it. Every place else has made me feel very comfortable and that's what they're supposed to do. Of course, if you go in with a chip on your shoulder, they may respond in kind.

However, this sort of place might be more your speed, should you ever be in Boston, especially on the right night. You want spicy, they got spicy.

East Coast Grill

From their website:
[ QUOTE ]
On the eve of this unprecedented 3-night over-the-top fiery food challenge between
the East Coast Grill and our heat seeking public, I think it's important to remember the
exact nature of our original dispute.

...I've always liked spicy food and, in the early days of the East Coast Grill (circa 1986), we had gained a little reputation for serving some spicy dishes, which was a little unusual outside a Thai or Mexican restaurant. Unsuspectingly, I was baited into a culinary dare by a small, sick sect of the dining public whose taunts of "that really wasn't that hot" finally got the better of me and my formal training. I could not control the burning desire to silence at least a few. The resulting creation was the now infamous Pasta From Hell, fueled primarily by the original Inner Beauty Hot Sauce. Customers dropped like sweaty, panting, weak little flies. The kitchen howled at their tormentor's agony. But when the smoke cleared there were a few left standing, a crazed, goofy, half smile on their faces and a faraway look in their eyes, and, as I looked out from behind the grill, I would get an almost imperceptable, knowing nod. Their fix had been had and, lost in that chile stupor, they acknowledged the contest was a draw. But, like a gunfighter in the Old West, I knew this was only the beginning. They would return, they would bring their friends to face the true test.

Word spread until there was an actual demand for a night when only wicked hot food was served. The brave and the super freaks came in droves to feed their strange and weird addiction. The first Hell Night was born. More came and we created the Hell Doubleheader and today, for the fourth time in world history, you are participating in not 1, not 2, but 3 straight nights of pure atomic cuisine -- the only Hell Tripleheader known to humankind. Chefs Eric and Jason do battle today with recipes handed down by chefs before them. The legends of past fire eaters are whispered to new staff. So here we are in continuation of the eternal struggle. New dishes are designed, new chile mixes created, gas masks distributed. The kitchen is ready..are you?

We won't stop until you do.

Good luck,
Chris



[/ QUOTE ]

They are famous for Hell Night. Next time that occurs is Feb 26-28.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Some thing about good service is that the waiter quickly notice what kind of service you want.

When I'm out with friends of mine that rarely eat at high-end places, the waiter should notice this. And that means mastering the art of giving us great service and reccomend stuff without making the people that visit such a place for the first time feel like idiots. Don't make my mate feel like an idiot because he doesn't want red wine even if it is the obvious choice with that particular course. It's surprising hom many high-end places that fails at this.

This isn't a problem when you're dining with a bunch of likeminded food lovers obviously.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Gary Danko-..
FYI danny and I lived a block from Gary Danko and walked past it pretty much every day to get to a small sushi shop in San Francisco... It looks like some kind of nightclub, all the windows are totally blacked out and there is a 'bouncer' outside the door. After a month or two we asked him what the place actually was (we had only just started our aristocratic eating habits), and he said it was a restaurant. We said we'd probably drop in soon then, but he said there's usually a 2-3 month list of reservations usually.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
El D,

What have you heard/experienced wrt Manresa in Los Gatos, also Chez Panisse in Berkeley. I will be going to both of these places fairly soon and would like to hear from someone who has been. Both are consistently top 25 in the world from what i hear.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pitt,

I have been to Manresa about 5 times, and absolutely love it. Well worth the trup. Very small and cosy with really great service.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't make my mate feel like an idiot because he doesn't want red wine even if it is the obvious choice with that particular course. It's surprising hom many high-end places that fails at this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most companies and most people fail at this in every business. 90% of all sales people forgets that if the customer would know everything about the available products and solutions there wouldn't be any need for sales people at all. Just by understanding what you write above you can make success in almost any kind of business. It is a bit of a derail maybe but it shows how important it is. I go to visit a customer, I can't identify him but was a large company by Norwegian standard, I inherited this customer from a sales person who had quited to start working for a competitor. So on our first meeting he says after 5 minutes: "How good you got rid of that guy. I ordered a system and when it was installed it did not work as I wanted. He told me I should have known that. I should know? Wtf should I know? What was he supposed to know then? I wouldn't have bought anything at all from you anymore if he would still work for you and I will never buy anything from them." It is the same with high end-restaurants, if you would know as much about food and wine and cooking as they do, you would probably eat at home instead, so they should be happy the bigger the gap between them and you in competence is and thus treat the guy who knows nothing about wine at all the best of their guests, since it is towards him they add most value.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Diablo,

Totally agree about the non-stuffiness. It was the most relaxed and comfortable I've ever felt in a fine-dining restaurant.

I actually do remember thinking the restrooms were a little sub-par now that you mention it, but I had had enough drinks by then that it didn't really faze me.

Also forgot to mention dessert. The creme brulee was really good. Had a butterscotch taste to it that was really unique, and it went well with a 10 year port.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Last nice place I went to was trattoria acqua for Valentine's with my girlfriend. Meal cost $85 for us, $100 with tip, so ~50 each. Not fine dining like some of the places mentioned in this thread, but certainly pricy.

First thing I noticed was how [censored] the menu was. For a nice place like this it should be completely professional but the menus looked cheaper than the place and had some stupid quote like
"The goal should not be to die in a pretty, well-preserved, body but to go completely worn out, kicking and screaming with a chocolate martini in one hand..." Very lame.

Other than that the service was very good. There was the main waiter who had very fancy suspenders, several bus boys to take away our dishes and fill our water, and a dessert guy. Most people that ever served me.

For appetizers I ordered Lobster Bisque and she got Formagio al Formo: baked Brie cheese encased in phyllo dough, served with stone fruit and a honey-white truffle sauce. Hers was better than mine, which was very very good but I got her to try mine and she's a vegetarian (first time she ate any kind of meat in 15 years) which was exciting. She thought it was "very wierd but good."

For dinner she got Agnolotti con Funghi Porcini e Tartufo Nero - Wild mushroom & black truffle filled Agnolotti with a marsala and porcini mushroom cream sauce which is spectacular. There is a truffle in each ravioli type thing and it is knock-your-socks-off good.

I got Salmone con Gremolata : Oven roasted organic Scottish Salmon filet with a Gremolata topping of pinenuts, lemon zest and breadcrumbs served over Heirloom potatoes, organic tomatoes, black olives and a white wine reduction sauce

which was very good but the reduction sauce could be a bit overwhelming at times. The olives and tomatoes they used were very strong and the dish was good but the sauce was a little much all in all. The fish was awesome, of course.

For dessert we got a chocolate soufle just like a molten lava you can get just about anywhere, which was very good but not spectacular, and a lemon tart that was also very good but not spectacular and had a little too much torched whipped topping and not enough tart.

All in all a great meal and lots of fun, probably overpriced like all places down in La Jolla though.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

I couldn’t make it through a thread like this without contributing a review of my favorite restaurant, Urasawa. It’s a Japanese kaiseki-style place that also serves great sushi, located in Los Angeles (Beverly Hills, to be precise).

Visiting Urasawa is definitely a fine-dining experience, but different than most of the other places listed in this thread, I think. The sushi bar seats 10, and that’s it…just 10 (at the most) will be served each night.

I was there a week ago, and I didn’t write anything down, so I know I’ve forgotten some of the details of the dishes I was served…you’ll get the gist, though. The menu changes over time, but on any given day, you’re getting what he’s serving…you don’t get a choice (though if you have special requests or items you just can’t eat, he can accommodate you if you let him know in advance).

First – Goma-dofu (sesame tofu) with uni in the middle, topped with wasabi and gold leaf.

Second – This was a mixed platter of various small items, one bite each…I can’t remember them all, but I know it included sea cucumber roe (served in a carved slice of cucumber), smoked salmon (wrapped around something, but I can’t remember what), fish eggs, daikon radish, abalone in miso…1 or 2 other things too, I think.

Third – Sashimi platter. I got a plate with various kinds of sashimi, including red snapper, needlefish, giant clam, uni, Spanish mackerel, and toro (the best toro you’ll ever find). His standard is not quite as elaborate, usually 3 types of sashimi (always including toro), served on top of a bowl carved out of ice.

Fourth – Tuna tataki. This was thin slices of tuna, seared around the edges, served with some kind of topping (several ingredients were involved, but I’m not sure what they were…gold leaf was included, he likes to add that on top of things).

Fifth – A type of egg custard with uni and shrimp in the middle, topped by yuba skin and served warm…this one was fantastic, and not something I’d been served before (I’ve been maybe 10-12 times).

Sixth – There was a specific name for this, but I can’t remember it…basically, a little charcoal grill was placed in front of me, but instead of a metal grill, there was a large leaf being heated from beneath…on the leaf, there was a type of Japanese beef (not Kobe beef, but from somewhere else in Japan…apparently there are 400 different kinds of beef in Japan, and the chef is experimenting with different kinds), shrimp (which minutes earlier had been pulled live out of a tank in front of us and skewered), and shirako (cod sperm sac, which sounds gross, but is actually really good), all cooking in a miso sauce.

Seventh – Shabu-shabu, including more of that Japanese beef (great stuff), lobster (pulled live from a tank and chopped up, just like the shrimp), and foie gras (perhaps my favorite food on earth).

Then, it was time for the sushi. I’m going to try to list everything I had, though it’s quite possible I’m forgetting a couple things. His standard is to serve one piece of everything, but for me he sometimes serves 2 pieces (I ended up having 3 of the toro).

Toro, maguro, seared toro, red snapper, shima aji, kohada, mirugai, orange clam, abalone (he always has abalone that are just enormous, so much bigger than the ones you see at most sushi bars), shira ebi (a whole bunch of tiny shrimp pressed together), ama-ebi (pulled live out of the tank, and served with the brains poured over the top), saba (nothing like the sometimes too-fishy stuff you’ll find at most sushi bars, this is actually one of the more expensive items he serves), Japanese mackerel, squid, shiitake mushroom (cooked on a grill), needlefish, lobster (again, from living to my stomach in about a minute), uni, anago, a toro roll, Japanese beef (cooked lightly on the grill), tamago

I think that’s it. Yes, I eat a lot.

Finally, he serves two desserts:

First – Apple jelly served over pieces of dried persimmon (this was something new for me, I really liked it)

Second – Black sesame pudding (he serves sesame pudding a lot, sesame ice cream in the summer, and I always enjoy it)

Then you get a mug of some very strong, traditional green tea, followed by a cup of some other kind of roasted tea (not sure what it’s called).

Total cost -- $300 before drinks, tax, or tip. Standard is $250 per person, but I pay a little more because I typically eat more than the average customer (I think I get great value for the extra $50, because I had two pieces of about half the types of sushi listed above, plus my sashimi platter from early in the meal was bigger than everyone else’s).

Service has always been perfect…the atmosphere is very intimate, since even on a busy night he will only have 10 customers. He puts a ton of effort into the presentation of all his dishes, which makes it fun to watch for me, since he’s preparing everything right in front of me.

If you’re curious to see some pictures of the place, here is a link to someone else’s review of Urasawa (different menu, but a few of the same items, and a lot of the same sushi):
Urasawa Pictures

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

JA,

My apologies in advance for responding in cropping your post into little quotes fashion, I really don't like doing that in general.

[ QUOTE ]
A recent thread about high-end dining got me thinking and I've realized that it pisses me off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry for that, I didn't hope for this thread to piss anyone off, and I'm sorry that high-end dining pisses you off. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but it seems like your opinion is colored by (perhaps several to many) bad experiences, or perhaps it's just not the scene for you. That's alright too.

[ QUOTE ]
I have decided that I hate it. I hate the staff's attitude; I hate the patrons' attitudes more. ... I don't care to be "in the know" or to fuel my Patrick Bateman-like desire to be seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

As others have commented, if the staff has an attitude, that's a bad thing. I've only incredibly rarely had even a single staff member have any sort of attitude at all. In general I've found the staff to be attentive to detail, but exactly as "intrusive" or "educational" as you want them to be, and no more. If and when they do things like you mention later where they say "excuse my reach," every time they pour water past you, they're just conforming to that particular restaurant's etiquette code. I agree that that particular level is a bit silly to me, but I can see spots where it would make sense. (It's certainly better to be too polite than to offend a customer who is paying this kind of money for food.)

[ QUOTE ]
The food looks fantastic and may taste pretty good, but equally wonderful food is always available at more humble places.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really, really don't think this is true. While "good" food might be available down the street, I don't think that there's anything comparable to most "great" restaurants (ignoring pure outliers) at significantly lower price points at humbler places. If you look at places like Bouli, alinea, etc (those being the more experimental restaurants), there just aren't low price point places for that kind of food. Or at least not that aren't disgusting. The processes that produce good "high tech" or whatever food are expensive, time consuming, and require great ingredients to work well. The food that we're calling "best in class" or whatever in this thread is similar. While there might be a good French food at a bunch of places, someplace might arguably serve the best French food in the world/country/city. It would be understandable if they charged a bit more for their food and classed up their service.

But as others have said in this thread, when most people go to a high-end place, you're not just paying for the food. You're paying for the experience, the memory, the whole evening. Everything should be great. If everything isn't great for you, something's gone wrong.


[ QUOTE ]
The someliers usually recommend worse wines than I can come up with on my own.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's very odd indeed. I don't think there's anything more I can say than that. I'm just surprised that you've gone to restaurants employing some of the top wine experts in the world and consistently found your taste in wine and wine matching to be superior to theirs, especially considering that you have a phD in something that has nothing to do with vineculture, and they have spent years studying wine.

[ QUOTE ]
Almost without exception, I don't want to talk to the wait-staff. I'd rather talk to my friends/date for dinner. You know, the people who I WANTED to eat with. I want to be loud and tell good stories. I don't want 15 people trying to nose their way into my conversation via trying to fill my water glass. I do not equate attention with good service.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, while many of these places don't expect you to be "loud," I'm shocked that you've had several occasions where they are butting in to your conversations, interrupting you, and not letting your evening go as you would like. In my experience this is where the best servers excel. Knowing when is a good time to bring the next dish, when is a good time to interrupt briefly, and how to unobtrusively refill a glass of wine has been the hallmark of the service I've received at great restaurants.

[ QUOTE ]
All of these factors and more have made me realize that I just don't enjoy these restaurants as much as I should. I have no objections to paying good money for a great meal, but I don't want to pay great money for a good meal, and the fact of the matter is that most of the time the food just isn't as good as it is many other places, most of which are just kind of neighborhood-type of places.

[/ QUOTE ]

JA, I hope you give high-end dining another try. Maybe let El D pick. But it is understandable that someone might not enjoy the jacket-required, 6 waiters to a table, decibel limited nature of these places.

A good, but not great, discussion I think could be started in the nature of this:

Lotus of Siam, LV, is frequently cited as one of the best, if not the best, Thai food in the country. (I ate there last year during the WSOP, and honestly, the food was amazing. Way better than my local "great" Thai place, and Chicago is a city of Thai food.) The menu is inexpensive, to say the least, but service (though good) and ambience are both more in the nature of someplace you go for $10 Thai food than anything else. Aruns, Chicago, is also cited as one of the best, if not the best, Thai food in the country. It's about $85 a head. One explores what's great Thai food: the best that you can do with the dishes that Americans all know, the other explores rarer dishes, rarer ingredients, greater variety - still will server you the staples, just will kick them up one more notch.

I'm not saying that people who crave finding the local place with the killer handmade ravioli, or the great beer steamed mussels, or the best sandwich ever, or whatever, is not a worthwhile pursuit (or one that I don't engage in), I'm just saying that there is a niche for these places outside of just wanting to be seen or make an impression on someone or ridiculously spend money. I think that when you don't get unlucky, you can enjoy your food, your company, and be treated with the best service you can find anywhere, all while knowing that this is an experience that is rare and special in that it couldn't happen just the same way at some random other restaurant.

I guess that I don't agree that there's an attitude that goes along with these places. Aside from having to don the monkey suit, I've basically never had a problem with feeling uncomfortable or like my party wasn't wanted in one of the great restaurants.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Generally speaking:

I am not a food snob. I worked in low and mid-range restaurants for a long while and have eaten a ton of food from those kitchens - happily. I have a lot of friends who work in upper-mid range or fine dining type places, and I really enjoy going out and blowing a bunch of money on a fabulous dining experience. But ultimately I will be way happier going to a mid-range place where I know what I'm getting and get treated well than I would going to a crowded, snobby fine dining place full of obnoxious people where I will get sub-par or even merely average treatment. Being treated well is hugely important to me. So is a good atmosphere - I absolutely HATE HATE HATE being too close to other tables or being in really loud rooms.

I'm a very friendly, polite customer who is easy to please, so I usually get treated great. I find that when I don't, it's usually because the staff has some notion that I will be ignorant, cheap or unappreciative and they decide right off the bat to spend their effort on someone who looks wealthier. If I am treated this way at a restaurant I will never, ever go back. Old male waiters are usually the worst about this.

Not surprisingly I have pretty much been miserable since moving to NYC since there are no mid-range restaurants where everyone knows my name and treats me great, everything is crowded and loud and full of irritating people and most places are ridiculously overpriced.

Will post a few restaurant reviews later on, don't want this post to get too lengthy.

NT

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The food looks fantastic and may taste pretty good, but equally wonderful food is always available at more humble places.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really, really don't think this is true. While "good" food might be available down the street, I don't think that there's anything comparable to most "great" restaurants (ignoring pure outliers) at significantly lower price points at humbler places.

[/ QUOTE ]

This quoted portion of your response is just way off. It is especially untrue outside of the U.S., imo (Paris is the city I think of first).

-Al

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
This quoted portion of your response is just way off. It is especially untrue outside of the U.S., imo (Paris is the city I think of first).

-Al

[/ QUOTE ]

Al,

I was unclear in the message last night: That portion was supposed to be specifically talking about the high-tech sort of food. Anyway, I don't believe that it's true in Paris either. Just because in Paris there is good food to be had, I don't think that a midrange place in Paris serving good French food would say that it compares its food well to the best French food in the world. I've had a lot of great meals for not much money in Paris, but none of those compare well to the best French restaurants I've eaten in in the US.

c

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This quoted portion of your response is just way off. It is especially untrue outside of the U.S., imo (Paris is the city I think of first).

-Al

[/ QUOTE ]

Al,

I was unclear in the message last night: That portion was supposed to be specifically talking about the high-tech sort of food. Anyway, I don't believe that it's true in Paris either. Just because in Paris there is good food to be had, I don't think that a midrange place in Paris serving good French food would say that it compares its food well to the best French food in the world. I've had a lot of great meals for not much money in Paris, but none of those compare well to the best French restaurants I've eaten in in the US.

c

[/ QUOTE ]

well, the most expensive French food in Paris is going to cost just as much as in the US, or more. The tasting menu at Guy Savoy is about $300 without wine. Is this better than a tasting menu that costs $100? I bet it is, but I think the curve is nowhere near linear.

Meaning, I doubt Guy Savoy is 3 times as good, however one would define 3 times as good. I think a lot of what you are paying for is the name of the place, and the ambience, and the service, etc. Just the food, which I think Sucker was referring to, is probably not 'better enough' to justify the price.

I think this is true for all kinds of ultra-luxury items. You are often not going to get good value at the top of the food chain. (pun intended [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

I meant to make this point eariler, but the curve is definitely NOT linear. It never is when you approach the top of something, for the simple reason that the cost to make it better isn't linear either. And there's the scarcity factor. Is a $100 bottle of wine 10x better than a $10 one? No, of course not. Is a $15 million pitcher 100x better than a $150K rookie? Probably not. But those higher priced items are much rarer than the cheaper ones, and if you want quality over quantity, you have to pay. It's not always worth it, but sometimes it is, just to experience the best there is.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

when you say mid-range, what sort of price range are you talking? I have long thought that nyc is a great city for midrange restaurants, entrees are in the 9-20 price range for many of my favorite places. in fact, I am often shocked at entree prices when I go back home to NC, because I am used to getting the same quality food in nyc at much lower prices.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Last night I went to Harbour 60 in Toronto with Eagles and our parents.

Appetizers
Seared Ahi Tuna
[ QUOTE ]
pepper crusted Ahi tuna with sesame, soya, daikon salad and wasabi.

[/ QUOTE ]
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3715/tunasx5.png

This was really good. Really tender, I usually don't like Tuna, but this was really good, I loved the pepper and sesame.

Pan Seared Foie Gras
[ QUOTE ]
ripe mango and ice wine reduction

[/ QUOTE ]
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/2039/foiegraswb1.png
Like most foie gras this was excellent. Very tender and nice fruit salad on the side. Eagles and I needed to fight over the last bit. My only complaint was that we weren't given enough toast, but the wait staff gave us more toast very quickly when we asked for more.

Shrimp Cocktail
[ QUOTE ]
jumbo white Gulf shrimp with a house tomato chili sauce

[/ QUOTE ]
As I said earlier I don't eat shellfish, but my parents and Eagles seemed to really enjoy the shrimp.
No pictures of the shrimp on the website.

Flash Fried Calamari
[ QUOTE ]
tossed with garlic, red cherry peppers and capers

[/ QUOTE ]
I always enjoy calamari, they aren't that heavily breaded and there was chipotle mayo on the side. All the appetizers were very good and I wouldn't consider reordering if given another opportunity.No pitcures of the calamari on the website.

Entrees
Harbour Sixty Bone-in Rib Steak
Quite simply the best steak I have ever had and that includes several of the top steakhouses in Toronto, New York, LA and Vegas. As usual it was delicious and three of us got it. I can't properly explain it's awesomeness without tasting it, right now I'm literally salivating and my stomach now feels incredibly empty. I'm really upset the picture doesn't show the inside of the steak.
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/1818/steakpv5.png

Long Bone Lamb Chops
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Colorado chops on a crisp potato pancake

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My mom got this and I tried some. The chops were great cripsy on the outside tender on the inside. My mom felt they were a little too fatty, but I really like them. The potato pancake was okay, but I expected it be better it didn't meet the expectations of the rest of the meal.

Sides
Mashed Potatoes
Good creamy mashed potatoes, a really big portion we couldn't finish it.

French Fries
Thin cut fries, lightly salted, really good, really crispy.

Sauteed Broccolini
A little too garlicky for my liking. Again a very big portion and he couldn't finish it.

No desert because we were too full.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

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well, the most expensive French food in Paris is going to cost just as much as in the US, or more. The tasting menu at Guy Savoy is about $300 without wine. Is this better than a tasting menu that costs $100? I bet it is, but I think the curve is nowhere near linear.

Meaning, I doubt Guy Savoy is 3 times as good, however one would define 3 times as good. I think a lot of what you are paying for is the name of the place, and the ambience, and the service, etc. Just the food, which I think Sucker was referring to, is probably not 'better enough' to justify the price.

I think this is true for all kinds of ultra-luxury items. You are often not going to get good value at the top of the food chain. (pun intended [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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KBZ,

I've continued to be unclear I see. I really shouldn't post between 9pm and noon local.

When you go ot Guy Savoy, you bet your ass you're paying for the ambience, the custom made plates, the name, etc. And if you're not happy paying for those things, along with the (nonlinearly) better food, you shouldn't be eating there. If, like JA Sucker appears to be, you're somehow disgusted by the ambience, obviously paying a markup for something that causes you disutility would be silly. As my girlfriend points out "not only your tastebuds are going to the restaurant, you're going for the experience."

When you go to Tru, some of your money is obviously going to pay for the fact that they have to pay for the museum quality art on the walls. When you go to Alinea you have to pay for the fact that they custom make silverware and plates for each dish. And when you go to anyplace in a stand alone mansion, you're helping pay their mortgage, which is clearly higher than rent in some mall.

Casually throwing the word "value" in at the end of your post does you a disservice. I think that as you pay more certainly you start getting decreasing marginal return on your investment, but I don't think I've found a restaurant yet where my marginal return has turned negative - in the high end category. I've been to many places that I would definitely call overpriced, but none of them have been in the category this thread is about. (These tend to be these weird "night club + food" or "small plates" places that are cropping up everywhere.)

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Pudge,

Nice report! That place sounds great, at least from your review and pictures. Next time I'm in Toronto (? LOL ?) we'll have to go.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

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So is a good atmosphere - I absolutely HATE HATE HATE being too close to other tables or being in really loud rooms.

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Heh, different preferences I guess. I love being in crowded loud rooms.

If the tables are close together in quiet places it can be a bit of a pain though.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

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I don't eat shellfish

I always enjoy calamari

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Hmm. . .

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

7,

squids don't have shells.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Yeah, I know. The wiki entry on shellfish states that they are sometimes considered shellfish, sometimes not. I'm just a little surprised because I just don't see a huge difference between shrimp and squid - there's a somewhat similar texture, the taste isn't THAT different, etc.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

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This quoted portion of your response is just way off. It is especially untrue outside of the U.S., imo (Paris is the city I think of first).

-Al

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Al,

I was unclear in the message last night: That portion was supposed to be specifically talking about the high-tech sort of food. Anyway, I don't believe that it's true in Paris either. Just because in Paris there is good food to be had, I don't think that a midrange place in Paris serving good French food would say that it compares its food well to the best French food in the world. I've had a lot of great meals for not much money in Paris, but none of those compare well to the best French restaurants I've eaten in in the US.

c

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C - gotcha, ok that makes sense (speaking specifically about "high-tech" food).

The reason I mentioned Paris is because it is an amazing food city with a strong, deep regional tradition. And bistro fare is simple to execute on. Many bistros will execute on standard dishes as well as a higher-end restaurant, and at much more affordable prices. Haute cuisine is a different story, which speaks to your point. But many haute rest. will feature traditional bistro fare (their spin), and I doubt it's "worth" the price hike.

Let's take for example Guy Savoy - This is some random blog dude's pictures of the 11-course, 285 euro tasting menu

There are several dishes that leap out as highly replicable / and would be as good at another restaurant - "lobster, crusty and soft, raw and cooked, sauce made from its juices, snap peas, spring onion", the "'chop' of fat turbot with egg and spinach sprouts."

I guess my thinking was along the line of KBZ's - at the end of the day this is food and the "best ingredients", outside of a few luxe items aren't much more expensive... from a "are you getting your money's worth" - paying alot more for that doesn't make much sense.

Also, for the incredible price point hike, I don't believe it's worth it if you are expecting better cooking execution (is the sous chef at Guy Savoy really that much better than at a less expensive establishment?) and presentation (not difficult).

The 2 criteria where it might be worth it to pay more is 1) creativity of the dishes (driven by the executive chef), and of course 2) service.

Overall though I understand your point - the Guy Savoy 11-course tasting menu is insane, and you couldn't get the full breadth of that meal elsewhere, with that level of consistent creativity and execution of dishes, and perfect table service.

-Al

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

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when you say mid-range, what sort of price range are you talking? I have long thought that nyc is a great city for midrange restaurants, entrees are in the 9-20 price range for many of my favorite places. in fact, I am often shocked at entree prices when I go back home to NC, because I am used to getting the same quality food in nyc at much lower prices.

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i guess i would say something like

low end - under 10 bucks for entrees
mid range - in the 10-25 vicinity
upper mid - 25-40ish
high end - 40+ for a typical entree

this is far from a perfect breakdown but if you figure in apps and desserts that puts the high-end places in roughly the 75+ range for food only.

when i used to live in the berkshires i ate in a lot of mid-range and upper-mid, bordering on high-end type places. i would say i got pretty good value in places like this compared to similarly priced places in manhattan.

i don't have a lot of experience eating out in the south at nice places, my family tends to think Romanelli's or Olive Garden is a 'nice' place so i don't have many occasions to compare with in NC.

i would say that the optimal price point in terms of value in the south is probably more towards low and mid range places, whereas where i was living before the best values (for whatever reason) seemed to be in the middle and upper-middle tier joints. does that make any sense? i'm not too sure about NYC yet but i'm guessing that where it excels is in some of the more unusual low and mid range type places - i.e. 'ethnic cuisines', places that depend on high volume and offer specialized menus, etc. your typical NYC diner isn't going to compete very well with a good southern diner because the overhead is so much higher but the food isn't going to be that different.

i'm also guessing that my NYC restaurant experience is fairly crippled by my inexperience with the outer bouroughs and some of the less horrible parts of manhattan.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

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So is a good atmosphere - I absolutely HATE HATE HATE being too close to other tables or being in really loud rooms.

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Heh, different preferences I guess. I love being in crowded loud rooms.

If the tables are close together in quiet places it can be a bit of a pain though.

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If I'm going somewhere to have some beers, a filthy Monte Cristo and watch a football game, loud and crowded is fun. I'm talking about when you go out to 'dine.' I like to eat with space, quiet, and without being rushed.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

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when i used to live in the berkshires i ate in a lot of mid-range and upper-mid, bordering on high-end type places. i would say i got pretty good value in places like this compared to similarly priced places in manhattan.

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Suprised to hear you say this. I've always thought that NYC had the best selection of $15-$25 entrees of any city or place I have visited. in fact I feel like great meals are easier to come by and often cheaper in NYC than Boston.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

I don't eat shellfish for religious reasons, not taste reasons.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Ah, n/m then.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

This thread is so interesting and confusing to me. I have no idea what a >$75/plate restaurant must be like. When I've taken my gf to what is considered the nicest restaurant in La Crosse, the total bill including tip probably ends up around $75. You could order the most expensive appetizer, entree, and dessert in that place and it would still be under $75.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

You might have to head over to Rochester and check out the Red Lobster if you want to take it up a notch. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

I don't suppose we have anyone here who laid down the 25k to take part in that dinner over in bangkok that can give a review?




(link for anyone who didnt read about it)

http://www.chinatownconnection.com/b...ive-dinner.htm

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

That's a very expensive meal!

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But Marc Meneau, the chef of L'Esperance restaurant in Vezelay, France, called it a "culinary work of art."

"It's no more shocking than buying a painting that costs $2 million," he said.

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Uh...

-Al

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

yeah except for the fact that it ends up in the toilet 12 hours later ya know?

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

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This thread is so interesting and confusing to me. I have no idea what a >$75/plate restaurant must be like. When I've taken my gf to what is considered the nicest restaurant in La Crosse, the total bill including tip probably ends up around $75. You could order the most expensive appetizer, entree, and dessert in that place and it would still be under $75.

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even in Boston, an expensive city by most standards, I think there are 3 places where food could cost me > $75 (unless I was really trying to get to $75, or ordering a 5 lb lobster or something). but I'm not really sure, b/c while I go out often, it's not to top tier places.

not included in the above are any of the best steakhouses, where I would normally spend like $40 per entree some split apps for less than $60pp.

according to Zagat, here are the top 10 restuarants in Boston

Oishii
L'Espalier
Aujourd'hui
No. 9 Park
Hamersley's Bistro
Blue Ginger
Mistral
Icarus
Il Capriccio
Oleana

I've been to all of these except:

L'Espalier
Aujourd'hui
No. 9 Park
Il Capriccio

of which the first 3 probably fit into > $75 pp IF you go with the chefs tasting menus, otherwise not. none of the others do, they are more like $35 - $45 entrees + $15 apps, as are No. 9 Park and the other 2 I presume. I normally don't order dessert, and if I did would split it with someone else.

but anyways to your point Meb, I don't think there are many of these places outside of NYC, SF, LA, and mb Chicago I guess. eating a la Carte in Boston, I could easily do < $75 anywhere in the city.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

KBZ,

I'd say that anywhere that has a tasting menu > $80 fits in here, even if you can do a non-tasting menu meal for less. Basically, I read OP as something like >$100 per person for normal meal for two with a bottle of wine. I am sure Boston has tons of restaurants that qualify as high-end dining.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

KBZ,

a friend says

federalist
clio
l'estpalier
spire
radius
blue ginger

and "i'm sure there are more"

the point isn't that there are a ton of these places. these are places that people consider "destinations," and obviously you need population and wealth to support these sorts of places, but seriously, a city doesn't have "few" places if it only has 10 places with $125 tasting menus. there aren't like hundreds and hundreds in the US.