Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Security from gambling is way way way higher than a job. I control my income and my fate. I work more if I want more money, work less when I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep telling yourself that. If you somehow always think that the more you gamble, the more money you will make, and you control your income, I want to know what color the sky is on your planet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Golfnut do you play poker yourself? Do you feel it's not possible to win at poker in the long run?

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
Golfnut do you play poker yourself? Do you feel it's not possible to win at poker in the long run?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I have played poker the past 18 years. And I am a long-term winner. There have been periods of variance and anyone who has played long enough knows it. There is no definitive the more you play, the more you win in month. It is like the stock-market. Overall, it rises, but there can be losses day to day, month to month and even year over year.

There are extremely few people who can sustain a career just from playing poker. That is the same for all high-risk professions -- acting, pro sports, music, etc.

The only difference is not the lack of transferable skills that poker has (because it is the same for music or acting) but the corruption of the value of money that comes along with poker that makes getting a 'fall-back' job incredibly more difficult.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
Golfnut do you play poker yourself? Do you feel it's not possible to win at poker in the long run?

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yes, I have played poker the past 18 years. And I am a long-term winner.


[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]

There is no definitive the more you play, the more you win in month.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean to say, "there is no definitive the more play the higher your WINRATE is in one month? "

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Security from gambling is way way way higher than a job. I control my income and my fate. I work more if I want more money, work less when I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep telling yourself that. If you somehow always think that the more you gamble, the more money you will make, and you control your income, I want to know what color the sky is on your planet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay please explain to me how "you" control your fate more than I do. I choose the hours I work. I understand basic math. I know what the "long run" is for the games I play. I know how to ride the varianceaments out.

Given the fact my income is ~10x my expenses... I think I'll be able to make it.

Tell me something else hilarious next. More about how your a winner, but had a really bad downswing. Or how you got sick and it decimated your roll. Or how I'm wasting my youth playing pokerz and wanting to retire absurdly young while I should commit myself to toiling 9-5 for the next 40 years.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are extremely few people who can sustain a career just from playing poker. That is the same for all high-risk professions -- acting, pro sports, music, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are confusing high failure rate with risky. I dated a girl who wanted to be an actress. This was a very risky choice and I tried to talk her out of it. I don't know exactly what the success rate is but I think 1% or less seems realistic. So it was high risk. That was when she started. Now years later she has had some minor parts in a few quasi-successful movies, she has stared in some direct to video movies, had a few ancillary roles on tv series. The risk at this point is no greater than any other job. Short of something extraordinary happening she will always have an income stream from acting.

Now I agree with you that a vast majority of people who want to gamble for a living will fail. But those that succeed will have no greater risk than any other form of employment.

Also if someone is honest with themselves they can test the water with gambling while still pursuing something more traditional until they are sure they can succeed at gambling. The pitfall being that I don't believe most people will be honest about their chances. Because they want to be a poker player they will just be wilfully blind to their lack of ability and try to force it.

I'm curious how do you feel about being a real estate agent as a career?

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]


Do you mean to say, "there is no definitive the more play the higher your WINRATE is in one month? "

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. If you play 20 hours and win a little, playing 40 hours doesn't mean you will win a lot.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. If you play 20 hours and win a little, playing 40 hours doesn't mean you will win a lot

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't predict my income for any 20-40 hours of poker nor can I predict my income for any week of sports wagering.

I can predict my income for a year of sports wagering or for 500 hours of poker.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Do you mean to say, "there is no definitive the more play the higher your WINRATE is in one month? "

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. If you play 20 hours and win a little, playing 40 hours doesn't mean you will win a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]


huh? if you are a winner, playing 40 hrs means you will win 2x what you won by playing 20 hrs.

and yes i understand that variance exists, i'm speaking in terms of expected value.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

the vast majority of people who try to play poker will not win. The vast majority of the general population will not be rich. The vast majority of the general population will not have a degree higher than an undergraduate degree. The vast majority of the population are of average intelligence. The vast majority of the population needs security provided by others for them. The vast majority of the population will not take risk.

however one part of the population will be rich. one part of the population will be able to take calculated risks. one part of the population will be able to put faith and trust into something they may not know works and keep going through all adversity, keep making sure they are making the correct decisions, do not get discouraged, and come out much more successful than the general population.

this one part of the population will be successful businessman, will be self-employed, will be able to beat the stock market, will be able to beat poker, become an elected official on a state or federal level, and be over all winners in life without needing someone to nurture them and protect them and provide their security. this part of the population knows what it is like to work hard and more importantly to work through the hardest blows life can deal. these will be the people who set themselves apart from others. These people will be the somebody's in life.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
These people will be the somebody's in life.

[/ QUOTE ] Just because someone isn't successful doesn't make them a nobody. Career/being rich isn't the most important thing in life to many people. And many people who attain what they thought is success find out it may not be cracked out to be that great. Many rich people are miserable. Go figure.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]

huh? if you are a winner, playing 40 hrs means you will win 2x what you won by playing 20 hrs.

and yes i understand that variance exists, i'm speaking in terms of expected value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, can be. Some people can play well for 1 hour and not for 5 hours. Some people can play one table well and do horrible at three tables.

Just like King Henry knows about sports betting, doubling the amount of games you bet on doesn't necessarily mean you will win 2x.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

huh? if you are a winner, playing 40 hrs means you will win 2x what you won by playing 20 hrs.

and yes i understand that variance exists, i'm speaking in terms of expected value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, can be. Some people can play well for 1 hour and not for 5 hours. Some people can play one table well and do horrible at three tables.

Just like King Henry knows about sports betting, doubling the amount of games you bet on doesn't necessarily mean you will win 2x.

[/ QUOTE ]

But doubling the amount you bet does. LDO.

Your just making pathetic excuses. Because you can't do something and are limited by it, does not mean that I am limited by whatever is holding you back. Maybe you're too stupid, lazy, insecure or whatever. Don't try to explain it onto the rest of us.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

if you are miserable with five dollars you will be miserable with a million. Money just magnifies your problems.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]


Your just making pathetic excuses. Because you can't do something and are limited by it, does not mean that I am limited by whatever is holding you back. Maybe you're too stupid, lazy, insecure or whatever. Don't try to explain it onto the rest of us.

[/ QUOTE ]
I suggested this a while back so expect him to discount you.

I'm done with this thread.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious how do you feel about being a real estate agent as a career?

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. Every real estate boom brings people attracted to riches and then the inevitable bust sends them back to the streets. I think 1 out of 7 don't even last a year.

Difference is that you usually find out quickly if it is right for you or not.

For whatever reason, there are many poker players that do spectacular for 5 or 6 years and then go bust. Might be that they won a tournament, ran hot, didn't adjust, confidence shot, etc.

Cheers

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Your just making pathetic excuses. Because you can't do something and are limited by it, does not mean that I am limited by whatever is holding you back. Maybe you're too stupid, lazy, insecure or whatever. Don't try to explain it onto the rest of us.

[/ QUOTE ]
I suggested this a while back so expect him to discount you.

I'm done with this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never made excuses. I can definitely be a person who sustain a living solely from poker (I hate the term poker pro). I find poker as a career rather boring and unfulfilling.

I don't know why you seem so angry and resentful. I have stated that this is my opinion and what I have witnessed over the last two decades.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

I know tons of kids in their 20s making 200k+ a year and they are playing significantly less than 40 hours a week. As someone stated earlier, it really isn't that difficult if you dedicate enough time into learning the game. I'm afraid you're being pretty naive about this golfnutt.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

I don't think he is naive so much as just very risk adverse.

I also think he is using his own preferences as universal and not willing to see that other people might have different preferences. I wanted a certain lifestyle that just can't be had by working.

If I was presented with a choice between option A (I get my life 1% of the time and instant death 99% of the time) vs option B (I get a $90k a year job for the rest of my life) I would choose A. With A at least I have a 1% chance of being happy vs option B where I have 0%.

I do see his point somewhat since a lot of so called pros are delusional but the problem isn't being a poker pro it is being delusional. I live in a city where we have three awful universities. The admission criteria is basically that you have tuition and can walk upright yet every business student I talk to thinks he is going to be the CEO of a Fortune 100 company. Every girl I meet in "design" thinks she is going to design the next World Trade Centre etc. Being delusional is bad but it certainly isn't limited to poker pros.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

And she's hot too [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] You've hit the jackpot, sir.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

Here is my story...I m 26 next month.
I started around 10years ago with magicthegathering a cardgame where ,if u are a pro,u can make a living of it travelling and so on.I was a semipro and i can say it was more a hobby.
Then 2 years and half ago i found poker online thanks to a friend and i began at 25NL.
I did all steps and my friend(who played 5\10) helped me a lot giving me books and suggests.
Now i m playing NL600$ and i m trying to go on NL1000 because i ve around 75buyins for 5\10 but i m a bankroll nitty.This is my only source of income and for this year is around 100k.
I should get a degree in informatic engineer but in italy after u get degree and if u find work u get around 1200euros\month around 1800$ ,actually i live with parents but i would like to rent a home.
With a normal work(after university) rent is around 750euros to live alone in 50\60metres house so many guys can t do it alone.
I don t see the point of getting a normal work now but I understand this create some social problems also with girlfriends who are scared of a serious relationship.
When they ask you what u do what u say?
How can u make understand your girlf there s no difference between playing poker or having some shop\anything without a superior?

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

thats awesome

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

Left my day job at 23, 4 years ago. Never been close to broke. Worth more than every single person I know from college and work, including the nuclear physicist. The 30k I put into my 401k while working doesn't even factor into my retirement plans.

Playing poker full time was the most +EV move I could have made. I'd be making 75k tops at my job right now.

The reason many winning players fail at poker is because they aren't financially responsible. These people would be financially irresponsible if they stayed in a day job. Typical middle class spending habits get the job done. Leasing expensive cars, buying large houses w/ huge mortgages, credit card debt, not contributing to 401k's.

Stop telling everyone crap they already know or don't care about. Those who would have succeeded in a day job and are also amazing poker players will most often make more at poker. Those who fail at poker probably weren't going to become millionaires from their day job anyways.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
Stop telling everyone crap they already know or don't care about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol. As I said, coming on here and talking poorly about becoming a poker pro is like going to Wisconsin and lecturing the populace on how bad cheese is for you and what it does for your cholesterol level.

As Henry said, these young guns don't know or actually don't want to know.

I personally know poker geniuses for whatever reason have flamed out. It happens to the majority. One guy I know is now making $40k as a promotions manager at a club. He has declared BK and owes everyone in the world money (ouch...I am on that list!).

People will definitely make it. It will be infinitesimally smaller than many people think.

The only way to tell is to come back to 2p2 in 10 years and I am fairly confident you will see a 95%+ turnover. Or you can do as I have and witness it over the last 18 years.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

The question I have though is can if the last 18 years of data remains valid? Poker has changed dramatically in the last 4 years. It is also unclear what will happen to poker in the near future.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
Playing poker full time was the most +EV move I could have made. I'd be making 75k tops at my job right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

How the [censored] can you know if it is +EV long-term? You are picking a point in time. A job in your 20's isn't just about the pay, it is about the experience you gain so you can make big bucks in your 30s, 40s and 50s.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
A job in your 20's isn't just about the pay, it is about the experience you gain so you can make big bucks in your 30s, 40s and 50s.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that you are assuming people will earn more as they move up / gain experience skills. This is true for some people but for the majority it is a false assumption.

The average income in Canada is in the $34-37k range. I think in the States it is probably about the same or slightly lower. For the majority poker is +EV if they can make $40k.

I'd say less than 15% of the population makes over $80k though traditional employment (I could be wrong but I'm too lazy too look up the stats). For this 15% your argument is valid but for the majority they are never going to earn much more than what they started off at.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A job in your 20's isn't just about the pay, it is about the experience you gain so you can make big bucks in your 30s, 40s and 50s.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that you are assuming people will earn more as they move up / gain experience skills. This is true for some people but for the majority it is a false assumption.

The average income in Canada is in the $34-37k range. I think in the States it is probably about the same or slightly lower. For the majority poker is +EV if they can make $40k.

I'd say less than 15% of the population makes over $80k though traditional employment (I could be wrong but I'm too lazy too look up the stats). For this 15% your argument is valid but for the majority they are never going to earn much more than what they started off at.

[/ QUOTE ]

As always, you are right, King Henry. I am referring to those that take the career path vs. just going through the motions of a job.

If you are educated and have a modicum of drive, getting into that 15% is fairly easy.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you are educated and have a modicum of drive, getting into that 15% is fairly easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree the process is pretty easy but the fact that more people don't do it makes me think it might not be as easy for them.

To start with less than 40% of young people go to university. So for 60% the education is off the table. Of the 40% who go at least 20% don't have any reason to be in university (80% at some schools). A large portion of these end up with joke degrees like Psych and Sociology which again means they will never have a career but now they have student debt to worry about.

Most people leave university worse off. The people you are talking about would be individuals who end up in business school, law, medical school, engineering etc. Basically one of the professional degrees. I think competition for these is, while not hard, at least moderately challenging and sufficiently difficult to exclude most of the people who choose poker with no back up plan.

Most of society is not that smart or that industrious. Poker doesn't require that they be so fits for them.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
Most of society is not that smart or that industrious. Poker doesn't require that they be so fits for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I think that being a top poker pro requires a person to be industrious. They need to learn, keep track, be 'professional', etc.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]

To start with less than 40% of young people go to university. So for 60% the education is off the table. Of the 40% who go at least 20% don't have any reason to be in university (80% at some schools). A large portion of these end up with joke degrees like Psych and Sociology which again means they will never have a career but now they have student debt to worry about.

Most people leave university worse off.

[/ QUOTE ]
This pretty much sums me up right here except that graduate school changed how I think and see the world for the better. Problem is my graduate degree is in public administration which makes finding jobs difficult especially without experience. Adding to the fact that a political science undergrad degree was a stupid choice. Should have went with statistics or planning but a professor talked me into it. Oddly enough a planning degree could have landed me three jobs right out of school...

I am not so sure about had no business being at a university in terms of intelligence but I will say that in high school I never done any work and was never challenged so this led to grades that could get me into any school except for places like Duke University or even UNC Chapel Hill. NC State was the best school who would accept me. I guess if I knew how to think like I learned in graduate school things would be different but I had never been pushed to do so.

Now the problem is I left the University with a masters degree that is hard to find a job with and a ton of debt. Am I worse off? Right now yes, in terms of intellectual ability, no. In terms of future money making potential? No. Problems I face, narrow job market in public sector notorious for not having high pay on the federal level but pay is plenty good on the local level. For example the city manager of Greensboro, NC makes well over 150k a year. Now if I want to bypass that and really make some money then my best bet is to play poker or go into business for myself. Owning a small business is what I wanted all along as that is what most of my family has made their living from and it will be funny if that is how I end up.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

Situation in Italy and I think europe is that your "job" may last like 1 or 2 year and then they put you home often.
Then if u get 1200\1500 euros like first job after university u are lucky.
Problem is lets say 40% go to university..only 10% go to engineer,or medicine other things are mostly useless and you can be just a teacher and get 1200(humanistic).
And trust me there aren t so many works and places in that works that give u 2500 euros month.
So..sure when u are 40 you can get like 4000euros\month but how u lived before?
Then...are you so sure that u will get one of the few works that give u 4000 each month? and for sure u have to be one of the best or have some friends...
because if you don t get one of that 4000 euros\month work you will be stucked at 40 with a work that gives you 1500 each month and rent is around 750.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
The only way to tell is to come back to 2p2 in 10 years and I am fairly confident you will see a 95%+ turnover. Or you can do as I have and witness it over the last 18 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to point out that the majority of winners on 2p2 can be comfortably retired in 10 years with a modicum of business talent. So that would be, again, a retarded method to determine this. I personally doubt I'll gamble for any part of my income into my 30s.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just want to point out that the majority of winners on 2p2 can be comfortably retired in 10 years with a modicum of business talent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol. So 51% of winners on 2p2 will be retired?

How much money do you think it takes to be comfortable retired in your 30s?

Even if you socked away $2mm, you are only going to be earning $100k after taxes per year.

And there is no way a majority of winners will have anywhere near that in savings.

But if you believe it, that is all that matters.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just want to point out that the majority of winners on 2p2 can be comfortably retired in 10 years with a modicum of business talent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol. So 51% of winners on 2p2 will be retired?

How much money do you think it takes to be comfortable retired in your 30s?

Even if you socked away $2mm, you are only going to be earning $100k after taxes per year.

And there is no way a majority of winners will have anywhere near that in savings.

But if you believe it, that is all that matters.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should change that to "professionals". I didn't mean winners. Also the vast majority have some sort of business ventures going as well that are going to help us out.

But whatever, I don't need to validate myself to you. GG with your advice. I hope no one takes it. Or even that you spread it any further.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

The problem with business ventures is that while they offer an alternative source of income I find that everything I have attempted has had a less favourable money to hassle/effort ratio than gambling. The only investment options that really appeal to me are ones where I'm completely passive.

[ QUOTE ]
Even if you socked away $2mm, you are only going to be earning $100k after taxes per year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you just keeping the $2M in a bank account?

Also a lot of people would be happy to live off $100k and not have to work. There is a thread in BFI where a guy wants to retire on $30k at 40 which I think is insane.

The problem with your point is that for someone not to be happy with $100k a year doing nothing than they had to have been much better off when doing something. Since the hypothetical man in this case managed to save $2M in 10 years and live he had to have been making at least $300-350k/year to now not be happy with $100k. Which is possible but then he'll just keep gambling since it is obviously working out for him.

I could have retired from gambling years ago if I wanted to be responsible with money. I'm not though so I'll probably keep doing it until I'm old enough that I can't enjoy the money.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with business ventures is that while they offer an alternative source of income I find that everything I have attempted has had a less favourable money to hassle/effort ratio than gambling. The only investment options that really appeal to me are ones where I'm completely passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is hard enough to be successful investor when you have been trained and focused for that your whole life. All it takes is knowing the right person and investing along them. But I don't foresee this coming wave of the plethora of poker retirees making astute investments.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

I don't know most of these young poker players so I can't judge them but I would generally agree that you are probably right.

I have done very well investing but in the end I still found it to be too much work. Which is actually a very dangerous aspect of gambling for a living. Everything else starts to feel like too much work. I read the people who post in BFI and how they put the effort into maximizing their income and I feel out of place.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with business ventures is that while they offer an alternative source of income I find that everything I have attempted has had a less favourable money to hassle/effort ratio than gambling. The only investment options that really appeal to me are ones where I'm completely passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

At some point your nest egg will outpace what you make from gambling. Then again I'm several orders of magnitude a bigger life nit, so maybe not.

But it is a hassle to learn, but much more scalable than poker or sports. Adding a zero to a position size is almost all that is required once you have established being a winnerz, atleast in terms of scalability.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

I agree 100% the problem I'm finding is motivation. By the time scalability becomes an issue someone is already making enough from gambling that adding a 0 to the end is creating wealth for wealth's sake. The quality of life doesn't really improve.

Short of doing stupid stuff like buying $12M Fabergé eggs and warehouses of cars just to have them I don't see what I'd gain by putting in the effort. People that keep building wealth after hitting a critical mass baffle me.

Re: Dating a poker pro- From the perspective of a non-playing girlfrie
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree 100% the problem I'm finding is motivation. By the time scalability becomes an issue someone is already making enough from gambling that adding a 0 to the end is creating wealth for wealth's sake. The quality of life doesn't really improve.

Short of doing stupid stuff like buying $12M Fabergé eggs and warehouses of cars just to have them I don't see what I'd gain by putting in the effort. People that keep building wealth after hitting a critical mass baffle me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Scorecard.