Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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Charge a membership fee: $25 annually

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LOL average site gets that by an hour. Flat fee isn't an option. No-one would pay it.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

Tuff you're the ultimate attention whore

How does this not get more love?:

Scene: Some Boardroom in New York.

"So, how is it, again, that we make money, Johnson?"
"We don't. Its revolutionary."
"And we may get sued or jailed by DOJ?"
"Yep."
"But no one can multitable. Ever."
"what's that?"
"Where a nit plays more than one table. At Pokerstars, some nits play like 20 tables at a time."
"And how do they make money at Pokerstars?"
"They charge rake."
"And we won't?"
"Exactly."
"And at Pokerstars, some players play 20 tables at a time, paying rake on all 20 tables at once?"
"Yeah, and they play all day so unimaginatively..."
"All DAY?"
'Well, 24/7, really, Pokerstars never shuts down... but you are missing the point...."
"Is PokerStars for Sale, Johnson?"


If you dont want multitabling hud bots as you call them, then fair enough don't allow PT or PAHUD on your site. If it came at the cost of all these fish that you gonna be having on your site then so be it..I think everyone would be willing to make that sacrifice.

Trying to limit it to one table like a real poker room is stupid as Live poker without the interaction of other people at your table would be the most unenjoyable thing ever. Setting it to 3 or 4 tables max would still greatly serve your cause of trying to preserve your fishy clients.

Lastly, A rakefree site is nice and all but the only people that have that high on their list when shopping for a poker site to play on is the very people you don't want, the multitabling hud bots. A recreational player does not care about the rake charged by a site (to an extent of course). Rather charge a rake (you can still keep it less than the competition) and spend it all on promotions and advertising to get players to your site and keep them there.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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if this idea were to work, other companies would surely "jump on it" and open similar sites.

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I don't think there's enough advertisement for poker players even to maintain one single poker site. Another site won't find enough advertisement (not counting the field will by occupied by then).

edit/// well he can get enough advertisements if he will promote another poker sites (maybe with rakeback) [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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Charge a membership fee: $25 annually

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LOL average site gets that by an hour. Flat fee isn't an option. No-one would pay it.

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we had that site, too. it was run by Dutch Boyd and was a spectacular failure, although not because it was run by Dutch Boyd.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

lol, tuff you are in idiot. Just give it up already. Go do some research on what it would actually cost to set up and run a secure internet site, with customer service and all that, and then get back to us on your brilliant little plan

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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All you have said is "hi my name is tuff fish i make retarded internet poker videos of me playing...

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have a link?

BTW. I disagree with the rest of what you said. It could work although it probably won't work. Anyway that's his own risk.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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Charge a membership fee: $25 annually

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LOL average site gets that by an hour. Flat fee isn't an option. No-one would pay it.

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we had that site, too. it was run by Dutch Boyd and was a spectacular failure, although not because it was run by Dutch Boyd.

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Tuff's business plan is to get people to deposit, fold the business, and keep the money? I think that could work.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

1 table is silly. I get bored out of my mind playing 1 table. Make it 3 or 4 max, and don't allow any software. Rakefree would never work. It takes serious money to run a site, and even more to promote it.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

"All you have said is "hi my name is tuff fish i make retarded internet poker videos of me playing...

have a link?"


Yeah, it's been long enough that some of the newer posters might not be familiar with the legend that is tufffish.

search for 'tuff fish' on youtube.

Somebody made a video of some of his tiltiest comments set to the song "Bad Day":
http://tuffish.ytmnd.com/

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

I think the problem is still going to be found in funding. UIGEA targetted payment processors, for some reason just because your room is not taking rake does not mean the payment processors were used for players to gamble against each other. There is a difference between bringing a roll of quarters to a home game, and wiring in 50k to play high stakes online.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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I think the problem is still going to be found in funding. UIGEA targetted payment processors, for some reason just because your room is not taking rake does not mean the payment processors were used for players to gamble against each other. There is a difference between bringing a roll of quarters to a home game, and wiring in 50k to play high stakes online.

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I don't think tuff plays high stakes, so why would there be any high stakes games on the site?

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

TY MICROBOB. It had bad a while lol. Always brightens my day!

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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Trying to limit it to one table like a real poker room is stupid as Live poker without the interaction of other people at your table would be the most unenjoyable thing ever. Setting it to 3 or 4 tables max would still greatly serve your cause of trying to preserve your fishy clients.
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If the lake can be maintained in a healthy state with 2 or 3 tabling, fine. By a healthy state, I mean no drop off in the number of rec players and a consequent overabundance of grinders. Like what was happening at Party even without the UIGEA. I don't know what the optimum number is for keeping a good fishy site vs the number of tables allowed. I am pretty sure ONE works well. And if the site is running well and there are lots of rec players there, ONE or two will be the number.
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.

Lastly, A rakefree site is nice and all but the only people that have that high on their list when shopping for a poker site to play on is the very people you don't want, the multitabling hud bots.

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You are missing the point of zero rake. Zero rake makes it legal and doable. The funding mechanism is what is tricky. There is a necessity of supporting the operational costs without breaking the law.
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A recreational player does not care about the rake charged by a site (to an extent of course). Rather charge a rake
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see above
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(you can still keep it less than the competition) and spend it all on promotions and advertising to get players to your site and keep them there.

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Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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I think the problem is still going to be found in funding. UIGEA targetted payment processors,

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UIGEA targeted transfers to UNLAWFUL gambling sites. Since there is no rake etc, the presumption is that it IS lawful. Hence, no problem.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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I don't think tuff plays high stakes, so why would there be any high stakes games on the site?

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I would like to see stakes as high as anyone would want. It is, after all, our very own "homegame"

Tuff

BTW, as we speak, I have just won a seat to tomorrow's Sunday Millions on Poker Stars.

So, I think we should have tournaments too. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

TF

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

hey does anyone have the link the one where he uses the word "[censored]" as an expletive by itself? That one always cracks me up.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

Did the UIGEA say anything about whether a site had to take a rake to be unlawful or are you just making that part up?

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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Did the UIGEA say anything about whether a site had to take a rake to be unlawful or are you just making that part up?

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Bob, hang out in the Legislative forum a bit more. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

The UIGEA forbids transfers to UNLAWFUL gambling sites without specifying what such a site would be. It relys on existing state and federal law which is remarkably ambiguous on the subject of poker in general. The regulations being written are a nightmare, the enforcement is going to be nigh impossible, and the UIGEA will be challanged in court before the ink is dry on the regulations.

But, unraked poker is fully legal, and stated to be so, in many states, (Calif, MO), is not addressed in a lot of states, and is explicitly not legal in a few. (NC, OK, WA to mention some.)

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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I think the problem is still going to be found in funding. UIGEA targetted payment processors,

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UIGEA targeted transfers to UNLAWFUL gambling sites. Since there is no rake etc, the presumption is that it IS lawful. Hence, no problem.

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The absence of a rake doesn't make it lawful. Whether or not it is lawful varies state to state and may not even be true at the federal level. You will get shut down pretty fast.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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The absence of a rake doesn't make it lawful. Whether or not it is lawful varies state to state true, see above.. and may not even be true at the federal level. You will get shut down pretty fast.

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So far as I know, there is not so much as a syllable about poker in federal law.

To anyone who has an interest, the Legislative forum has several important conversations going regarding existing and pending actions involving poker. And, might I add, you all had BETTER have an interest.

There will not be a tie in the question of online poker in the US, either we will win and get fully legitimate, US facing online poker available, or our foes will win and YOU will not be making ANY money from online poker. The war has been joined and the issue has been escalated. It will be resolved one way or the other.

Tuff

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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Tuff, I admire your enthusiasm, but I have a serious question for you.
Do you think when a FTSE100 company is forced to drop 85% of it's revenue that it might have had every top legal mind at it's disposal looking at legal ways to offer poker in the US?

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This post has kind of been lost in the shuffle of this whole thread.
Mike, the lawyers there evidently couldn't figure out how to do it but several other sites could. Is that due to the whole situation of party being a publicly traded company as others have speculated or were the lawyers hired by Party just significantly more gun-shy and conservative compared with the PokerStars and FullTilt lawyers who were looking at the very same UIGEA?

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If tomorrow Mexico made the transportation of alcohol in and out of the country illegal, would Coors still sell beer in Mexico if they were selling something that was illegally brought into the country?
I just thought of that off the top of my head, so it may not be a great analogy, but you get the point.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

Tuff- good luck in the Million!

I would play. In fact, take a look at the ESPN poker club site. They are running it free on an advertising model. The software is easy. The hosting is cheap. This is very doable.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

I like everything but 1 table per person, pacicfic poker did this and eventually caved in to the demand of more tables. 1 table is just to boring man at least give us 6 then u wont sit there for 30 seconds waiting for ur turn agian. Seriously 1 table is a waste of life imo.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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I think the problem is still going to be found in funding. UIGEA targetted payment processors,

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UIGEA targeted transfers to UNLAWFUL gambling sites. Since there is no rake etc, the presumption is that it IS lawful. Hence, no problem.

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lol, do you seriously think because there is no rake that the government wont consider it illegal? Gambling is illegal not because the house takes rake, but because gambling is addictive and it will ruin the life of anyone who partakes in it, and its our governments job to save us from ourselves.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

Tuff still didnt address the issue that WSEX is already VERY VERY close to what he proposes and is the rockiest site around, it also has bot problems. I dont think tuff has a strong enough understanding of how things work to be the brainchild of attempting such an undertaking.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

Alobar, I cannot have a serious discussion with you as long as you have that avitar. Please change it.

That is all.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Tuff

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

Tuff,

It sounds like you thought you found a loophole in which would allow you to start a site. You didn't, but let's say you did.

How would you pay for the six-figures in fees associated with accepting all these players' deposits via visa/mc etc. each year?

Since you said "well advertised" how will you pay the millions each year for that?

What about development and licensing costs of the client software?

24 hour support staff paid in American wages?

Where does all this money come from?

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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Tuff still didnt address the issue that WSEX is already VERY VERY close to what he proposes and is the rockiest site around, it also has bot problems. I dont think tuff has a strong enough understanding of how things work to be the brainchild of attempting such an undertaking.

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WSEX was/is not even close to what I have in mind. Not to beat a dead horse that has been flayed incessantly, but WSEX has a rake redistribution model, not a zero rake model. That is a model tailor made for nittiness.

And their software sucked huge when they started, and now they have the same problems moving cash in and out as all the other offshore sites.

All of you, enough already.

I have my answer, not a lot of thanks to most of you. Think Super Bowl ad, a cheap one late 4th quarter. Or several before and after. Or maybe both, kinda depends.

This site will happen or it won't. If it happens, the rec players will come in droves. You will come in droves. You all will crawl on your hands and knees across a quarter mile of broken glass to sign up.

Cheers,

Tuff << 2nd appearance in the Sunday Millions.. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

omg can't you read, it's a secret. Get on the bus or shut up.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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Tuff << 2nd appearance in the Sunday Millions.. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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So THAT'S how he's gonna finance this endeavor, duh!

Anyway, god bless you and your important work, sir. You get the site up n' runnin' - I might check it out. If you offer a good enough deposit bonus, that is [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

(Yeah - I LIKE making money when idiots build pots hand-after-hand while I play a good one on one of the several tables I'm on. Why wouldn't I? That's a big reason I don't go to the local casino - 'cause I'd have to fold a bunch ON 1 TABLE, and I wouldn't get anything for it either.)

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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Tuff still didnt address the issue that WSEX is already VERY VERY close to what he proposes and is the rockiest site around, it also has bot problems. I dont think tuff has a strong enough understanding of how things work to be the brainchild of attempting such an undertaking.

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WSEX was/is not even close to what I have in mind. Not to beat a dead horse that has been flayed incessantly, but WSEX has a rake redistribution model, not a zero rake model. That is a model tailor made for nittiness.


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It's effectively the same thing, no rake and rake redistribution target the same customers.

You arent going to be able to change the deposit situation either, rake or no rake isnt going to make a difference so its not going to be easier to get money on than it will be for any other site. And LOL at bringing up the site software issue, do you have any idea how hard it is to roll out quality software even for sites that DO have rake? Your crusadea against multitabling is very troubling, your general stance does more to hurt online poker than help it.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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If you make a poker site with fish... I will play there. Thanks. Please make that [censored] happen. I like money.

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Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

I don't no why people are harping on you about the one player pre table thing.Pacific Poker had the one table pre player rule and it was the loosest site back in the day the avg pots were 2-4x most sites.I think the reason that it was so loose was mostly dew to this rule.

Whats the big deal anyway all you have to do is kick up a bunch of tables at stars, tilt or wherever at the same time if you want to play more then one table.

Tuff if you can get a site like this up and running I would play there and if the site had good games so would most of the people ripping on you.

gl

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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Tuff if you can get a site like this up and running I would play there and if the site had good games so would most of the people ripping on you.

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Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

Tuff_Fish, I just bumped the SW forum thread for you.

Get some C++ programmers on board, and get this going [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Forget multi-table limitations, just implement a short timebank structure for those on >1 table.

Best of luck,

dave.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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Forget multi-table limitations, just implement a short timebank structure for those on >1 table.

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Yep, the multi-table limit is just gonna kill this, but you could still possibly have some kind of timeback that is shared between tables so as to let the slow 1-tabling fish and fast 6-tabling sharks have the same right to hold the games up.

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

make only winning players use a percentage of their profit in your online wholesale store. people would rather obtain goods than pay rake

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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lol, do you seriously think because there is no rake that the government wont consider it illegal?

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As mentioned previously, many states explicitly allow citizens to play unraked poker in their homes. Also as mentioned previously federal law does not regulate poker in any way.

If a non-profit was able to get up and running offering rake free games to members in states where it's explicitly legal, the fed might still come after you one way or another, but it seems to my untrained eye that you would at least have a very strong case in court.

Obviously you'd have to be prepared for an expensive legal battle.

It would be far from easy and quick to pull this together, but I think it could work. If nothing else it would serve as a wedge to drive our legal points and it would help organize the community in resistance to prohibition.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

this is a good idea but who will come up with the money for the site they wont do it for free good thread but not reality

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

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We had/have this site. It was called WSEX. It's a site attached to a sportsbook, with no rake (yes yes blah blah blah contributed is different, who cares; certainly the fish don't know the difference), no hand histories to speak of, and also nobody playing on it. Except for that bot ring, which, hilariously, turned out to be the sole thing keeping the games running in the first place.

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WPEX was initially successful in drawing crowds, fish galore, with it's 100% rakeback. The site was overwhelmed with traffic, exposing numerous severe software and server flaws and weaknesses, to the point that playing there was a nightmare. The blind bug let people flat out cheat, the software would fold your hand, even if you had a legitimiate disconnect, hand history delivery was pathetic, etc, ....

We will never know what would have happened if WPEX had been prepared with good software and hardware from the beginning, but I am sure they wouldn't be dead now.