Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
out of curiosity, is it acceptable to walk off the course mid round when you realized you've been hustled big time (while paying off what you lost so far)? Or to refuse to play until renegotiation takes place mid-round or whatever?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, just like a poker game you can quit whenever you want. UNLESS, it is specifically negotiated ahead of time that a match is a freezout where you have to play until a certain amount is reached (this happens more often on the putting green)

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

They don't play by standard rules. Have you ever played basketball in the park? You take foul shots? Call 5 second violations? That's why I thought. This isn't league play.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
From the Rules of Golf

6-2. Handicap
a. Match Play
Before starting a match in a handicap competition, the players
should determine from one another their respective handicaps.
If a player begins a match having declared a handicap higher
than that to which he is entitled and this affects the number of
strokes given or received, he is disqualified;

Ivey is a cheat - End Of

Hussle = Cheat

Cheat = Lying scum

[/ QUOTE ]

what planet do you live on? golf gambling ISNT GOLF ITS GAMBLING. its a prop bet using golf as the vehicle. everything, including the rules, must be negotiated beforehand. LISTEN STUPID I GUARANTEE THIS MATCH DID NOT FOLLOW THE RULES OF GOLF.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Limon,

given that Ram seems admant about not repaying anything, what do you forsee as happening next? Will they be persona non grata in Vegas, should they be hiring bodyguards? This is rumoured to be $2 million after all...

J
6
9

[/ QUOTE ]

ram will pay. regardless of what the general public thinks, the real people he has to associate w/ in order to ply his trade all side w/ ivey. the weight will become to much to bear if he plans on remaining in the poker/gambling community.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

i guess i really dont understand the differences between hustling and cheating. I could be moving my golf ball 'because the other guys are probably moving it too'. You can attach this logic anywhere. I am not paying if I lose 'because the other guy isnt paying either'.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
i guess i really dont understand the differences between hustling and cheating. I could be moving my golf ball 'because the other guys are probably moving it too'. You can attach this logic anywhere. I am not paying if I lose 'because the other guy isnt paying either'.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm, have you ever been to las vegas? casinos are hustlers, the best hustlers in the world but they are not cheaters. they offer you a bad deal, but they keep the terms of that deal.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i guess i really dont understand the differences between hustling and cheating. I could be moving my golf ball 'because the other guys are probably moving it too'. You can attach this logic anywhere. I am not paying if I lose 'because the other guy isnt paying either'.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm, have you ever been to las vegas? casinos are hustlers, the best hustlers in the world but they are not cheaters. they offer you a bad deal, but they keep the terms of that deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

you didnt answer my question. if the guys say lets both give our honest handicaps, however its accepted in your mind that they should both be lying... then why cant other aspects of the game be accepted as it is ok to lie?

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i guess i really dont understand the differences between hustling and cheating. I could be moving my golf ball 'because the other guys are probably moving it too'. You can attach this logic anywhere. I am not paying if I lose 'because the other guy isnt paying either'.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm, have you ever been to las vegas? casinos are hustlers, the best hustlers in the world but they are not cheaters. they offer you a bad deal, but they keep the terms of that deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

you didnt answer my question. if the guys say lets both give our honest handicaps, however its accepted in your mind that they should both be lying... then why cant other aspects of the game be accepted as it is ok to lie?

[/ QUOTE ]

theres no such thing as an honest handicap and no one ever says that. a handicap is an approximation and open for debate. everyone overlooks the fact that ram was negotiating his handicap up front. thats the way it works. he lost the negotiation.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I’ve been golf gambling for over 20 years. In fact, it’s my favorite form of gambling. I learned early on that there’s a big difference between golfing gamblers and regular golfers.
Golf as played by normal people is a genteel sport set apart from most by its’ traditions of honesty and good sportsmanship. Golf to gamblers is simply another medium in which to try to get an advantage over your opponents. Standard protocols of normal golf have nothing to do with golf gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm an exPGA card carrying pro. The above quote is correct.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i guess i really dont understand the differences between hustling and cheating. I could be moving my golf ball 'because the other guys are probably moving it too'. You can attach this logic anywhere. I am not paying if I lose 'because the other guy isnt paying either'.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm, have you ever been to las vegas? casinos are hustlers, the best hustlers in the world but they are not cheaters. they offer you a bad deal, but they keep the terms of that deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

you didnt answer my question. if the guys say lets both give our honest handicaps, however its accepted in your mind that they should both be lying... then why cant other aspects of the game be accepted as it is ok to lie?

[/ QUOTE ]

theres no such thing as an honest handicap and no one ever says that. a handicap is an approximation and open for debate. everyone overlooks the fact that ram was negotiating his handicap up front. thats the way it works. he lost the negotiation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, fair enough.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

A quote from the hendon mob website I think is relevant:

Just a quick story to show the sort of person Ram is. A couple of years ago he played a heads up game with a scadie in my hotel room where there were maybe 50 spectators. The room service tab was over 2k and I am not the richest of players and was pretty skint at the time. Ram lost around 80k in the match and the winner and his friends all threw me some money not realising how much had been drank during the session, it wasn't going to cover it and it was probably my fault for not checking the tab before everyone left. Even though Ram had lost he was the last one left with Ross and he asked me if I had collected enough to cover the bill. Although I tried to front it and say it was ok (he had just lost 80k after all) he chucked in 1k to make sure the tab was covered and I wasn't out of pocket. At the airport a few hours later (after I had paid the bill) I tried to give ram the 300 change from the bill and he wouldn't take it.
Just a quick story to show the sort of person Ram is. A couple of years ago he played a heads up game with a scadie in my hotel room where there were maybe 50 spectators. The room service tab was over 2k and I am not the richest of players and was pretty skint at the time. Ram lost around 80k in the match and the winner and his friends all threw me some money not realising how much had been drank during the session, it wasn't going to cover it and it was probably my fault for not checking the tab before everyone left. Even though Ram had lost he was the last one left with Ross and he asked me if I had collected enough to cover the bill. Although I tried to front it and say it was ok (he had just lost 80k after all) he chucked in 1k to make sure the tab was covered and I wasn't out of pocket. At the airport a few hours later (after I had paid the bill) I tried to give ram the 300 change from the bill and he wouldn't take it.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
......he was chosen for that fact. phil and his backers had one chance to spring his new golf game on the public, they needed maximum bang for the buck. they needed to choose the stupidest mark they could find

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. No QFMFT!!!! comon guys, get with the program here.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

Top,

Yes, it seems more likely to me that Ram believed they were using honest handicaps then for him just being a complete moron to continue playing, because really, why the hell did he keep playing?

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

i still think that ram should pay up, even if phil was lying to him. ram's arguments prove that phil is not a friend to him. he lied to him, and hustled him. this is not a valid reason to welch.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

I know for a fact that Phil Ivey had a top golfer training him around the time of Thanksgiving.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

is ram just stalling because he doesn't have the money?

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
is ram just stalling because he doesn't have the money?

[/ QUOTE ]

imo this is very likely. then again, he could jsut get on a payment plan with ivey. i think hes probably fairly broke atm (by his standards), super frustrated about everything that has happened and is delayign to an extent. but I think ultimately though he knows he HAS to pay.. at least some significant % of the bet

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Top,

Yes, it seems more likely to me that Ram believed they were using honest handicaps then for him just being a complete moron to continue playing, because really, why the hell did he keep playing?

[/ QUOTE ]

your kidding right? i mean really, really why the hell does TJ keep throwing dice? why the hell does Barkley keep playing BJ? why does moneymaker keep playing poker...i mean really really.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

I thought he meant that he felt he shouldn't have to pay anything, but would if the arbitrators agreed he should.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

My god how dumb can Ram be?

Hasn't he ever heard of adjusting the handicaps after 9 or 18 holes? This is common in every bet I have ever made after playing golf.

Not only does he not adjust the handicaps, he let's Phil play for higher stakes, then he accepts the doubles bet of Mark after he walks off! So as I understand it, Phil's team is playing 2 balls and Ram is only playing one and counting it for both scores. That's financial suicide.

Anyone who plays more than 10 rounds a year can recognize a good golf swing and knows when a player has improved and is not just getting lucky.

After playing 36 holes with Ivey, Ram should have been able to tell the difference.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
My god how dumb can Ram be?

Hasn't he ever heard of adjusting the handicaps after 9 or 18 holes? This is common in every bet I have ever made after playing golf.

Not only does he not adjust the handicaps, he let's Phil play for higher stakes, then he accepts the doubles bet of Mark after he walks off! So as I understand it, Phil's team is playing 2 balls and Ram is only playing one and counting it for both scores. That's financial suicide.

Anyone who plays more than 10 rounds a year can recognize a good golf swing and knows when a player has improved and is not just getting lucky.

After playing 36 holes with Ivey, Ram should have been able to tell the difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah it almost seems to dumb to be true. mark probably wonders this as well...

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

Who didn't know that Negreanu's story didn't sniff anything near the truth. I have some funny examples of things that I saw happen in real life and the way they get purported in his blog. Him jamming 10 big blinds all in with K8s and getting called by a big ace and gets put in his blog as "what can you do, getting it all in with Kings and the guy catches his flush (flop was K64 all one suit)."


The Ram/Phil side comes down to where you stand about hustling/conning. I think it's lame way to live your life to be looking for spots to con your "friends" all the time. How Ram didn't know better is strange. Everybody knows his repuation as a Phil was a blatant hustler, why would he think he'd be any different?

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
A quote from the hendon mob website I think is relevant:


[/ QUOTE ]

actually, this is not very relevant. that was a nice thing for him to do, but nearly everyone i know would have done the same thing. pretty unremarkable.

ram is clearly not a bad guy, and i don't think his backing out is a reverse scam on his part. he truly believes he was wronged. but that stupid "if you can't spot the sucker" quote is apt. if he was not aware of what was going on, then he is not cut out for the world of gamblers. it sucks, but he needs to pay up, learn his lesson and move on.

that said, ivey is definitely a scumbag. many in this thread have already responded with some variant of "everyone does it", which is brilliant. so you're all scumbags, great!

you lay down with dogs you get fleas.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Daniel played Patrick heads up pot limit omaha every day for a week. Patrick wins ten million dollars in the first six days and is paid. On the seventh day Daniel wins one million but Patrick hasn’t paid him yet. Then Patrick finds out that on the last day when he lost Daniel was actually playing each hand with 5 cards instead of 4 having dealt himself an extra card each time. Patrick finds out about this and says to Daniel ‘I’m not paying you, because I know you were cheating.’ Doyle then turns to Patrick and says “-------, did Daniel put a gun to your head and force you to keep playing?""

There's a difference between an agreement in a golfround and blatant cheating in poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm more inerested in this than the golf. How does the other guy play with 5 cards all day and someone not notice? Am I being leveled?

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

ram said the average winnings from the other rounds played with ivey where like 10 - 50 k and ivey was actually up on him by something close to 30k. For vaswani to then go and lose 2 million in two rounds is pretty incredible and shows something was completely [censored] in the negotiations. No way im paying if im Ram. He lives in the UK i really dont think he will care about losing ivey and his friends either

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

lol this is absurd. If you negotiate badly that is on you. I don't care if a guy plays his 15+ rounds and shows me his handicap I've never taken anyones word for what they shoot and every golfer I've known continues with the mantra "oh I haven't picked up a club in X weeks".

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Limon,

given that Ram seems admant about not repaying anything, what do you forsee as happening next? Will they be persona non grata in Vegas, should they be hiring bodyguards? This is rumoured to be $2 million after all...

J
6
9

[/ QUOTE ]

ram will pay. regardless of what the general public thinks, the real people he has to associate w/ in order to ply his trade all side w/ ivey. the weight will become to much to bear if he plans on remaining in the poker/gambling community.

[/ QUOTE ]

How rich is Ram anyways? And what is his future lifetime expectation in poker/gambling? It seems to me that he's better off just running off to a beach somewhere and keeping the $1-2 million. It would be pretty hard to make that back without getting lucky in some big tournaments.

Wow what a total moron Vaswani is. I can't believe he's trying to sway the public's opinion on this. Why did he play for stakes he couldn't afford to lose against a professional gambler? And then he kept playing and repeatedly upping the stakes? WTF, why are people on his site agreeing with him? That was such a degenerate thing to do for him to tilt off all his money gambling on golf and then refuse to play.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Daniel played Patrick heads up pot limit omaha every day for a week. Patrick wins ten million dollars in the first six days and is paid. On the seventh day Daniel wins one million but Patrick hasn’t paid him yet. Then Patrick finds out that on the last day when he lost Daniel was actually playing each hand with 5 cards instead of 4 having dealt himself an extra card each time. Patrick finds out about this and says to Daniel ‘I’m not paying you, because I know you were cheating.’ Doyle then turns to Patrick and says “-------, did Daniel put a gun to your head and force you to keep playing?""

There's a difference between an agreement in a golfround and blatant cheating in poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm more inerested in this than the golf. How does the other guy play with 5 cards all day and someone not notice? Am I being leveled?

[/ QUOTE ]he's using it as an example that if this story was indeed true, then people would think it was fair to welch on the bet. He's comparing this scenario to him getting hustled on the golf course (which is not the same at all).

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

am I the only one that thinks that Ram isn't paying because he CANT? I don't think he has a million bucks. He is a loser who goes over his head all the time. (recently demonstrated by playing SBrugby for the highest stakes online.)

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

Even his wife asked him why he didn't stop when down 200k. If you are a gambler, had to tell your wife about a loss, and get chewed out, you KNOW it was more money than he was EVER comfortable losing.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A quote from the hendon mob website I think is relevant:


[/ QUOTE ]

actually, this is not very relevant. that was a nice thing for him to do, but nearly everyone i know would have done the same thing. pretty unremarkable.

ram is clearly not a bad guy, and i don't think his backing out is a reverse scam on his part. he truly believes he was wronged. but that stupid "if you can't spot the sucker" quote is apt. if he was not aware of what was going on, then he is not cut out for the world of gamblers. it sucks, but he needs to pay up, learn his lesson and move on.

that said, ivey is definitely a scumbag. many in this thread have already responded with some variant of "everyone does it", which is brilliant. so you're all scumbags, great!

you lay down with dogs you get fleas.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha...good post, I agree completely. It's hard to decide which side of this argument to be on because they're all obviously lying, degenerate scumbags. It sure is an interesting situation though.

I'm amazed that these guys gamble for these kinds of stakes without putting the money up front in some kind of escrow. I can understand when these rich guys are playing for $50K per round that they might just trust the other guy. But when it gets to the hundreds of thousands of dollars you'd think that Ivey would want to see some cash up front. I guess he just didn't want to give Ram a chance to get off tilt and step away from the course though.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

This wouldn't even be an issue if the stakes were more along the lines of $10.

Ivey<Ram at setting up a golf bet.

This isn't a big deal except for the amount of money. The rules of golf gambling don't change because of that.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
am I the only one that thinks that Ram isn't paying because he CANT? I don't think he has a million bucks. He is a loser who goes over his head all the time. (recently demonstrated by playing SBrugby for the highest stakes online.)

[/ QUOTE ]

And this brings up another issue. Since Ram was an idiot for taking Ivey's word on his golfing ability, isn't Ivey also an idiot for taking Ram's word that he has that kind of money to gamble with?

If Ram is responsible for not realizing that he was being lied to by a hustler, then shouldn't Ivey be responsible for allowing a potentially broke guy to freeroll him for a million dollars?

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
am I the only one that thinks that Ram isn't paying because he CANT? I don't think he has a million bucks. He is a loser who goes over his head all the time. (recently demonstrated by playing SBrugby for the highest stakes online.)

[/ QUOTE ]

And this brings up another issue. Since Ram was an idiot for taking Ivey's word on his golfing ability, isn't Ivey also an idiot for taking Ram's word that he has that kind of money to gamble with?

If Ram is responsible for not realizing that he was being lied to by a hustler, then shouldn't Ivey be responsible for allowing a potentially broke guy to freeroll him for a million dollars?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well this month alone he has lost 500k playing nl with Sbrugby (another game he should never have entered or stayed in for so long) then yesterday Ivey takes some 400k off Sbrugby. Funny how that all works.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

rams partner says in his blog they asked what lindgren gave him before they played and they almost didnt start playing until they asked that. rams says later that he didnt ask til they were in the middle of the game. if you believe anything ram wrote ur a sucker he just doesnt want to pay. and anyone who sides with ram is not a golf gambler and should just be quiet. its like your friend tryin to tell you how to play a hand when hes never played poker in his life

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's hard to decide which side of this argument to be on because they're all obviously lying, degenerate scumbags. It sure is an interesting situation though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Top,

Yes, it seems more likely to me that Ram believed they were using honest handicaps then for him just being a complete moron to continue playing, because really, why the hell did he keep playing?

[/ QUOTE ]

your kidding right? i mean really, really why the hell does TJ keep throwing dice? why the hell does Barkley keep playing BJ? why does moneymaker keep playing poker...i mean really really.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the fact that he plays 300/600 PLO all day made me think that he was a smart guy and not a degenerate gambler.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seems like Ram pulled the biggest hustle of them all, play for high stakes, if you win, get $$$$$$$, if you lose.. dont pay

Gambling is all about getting good betting spots, and there aint no better spot then a freeroll

Ivey should just accept he got hustled and move on

[/ QUOTE ]

this is so true.If Ivey "hustle" is ok then so is Rams,in not paying.

LOL @ Ivey trying to collect after his mark found out he got cheated.

[/ QUOTE ]


ivey obv did a shiitty job of hustling the match. the target should think the match is fair and never even have a chance of thinking otherwise, unless of course hes cool with taking the dog side of the bet. ram is obv not one of those people. taking such a huge edge is just asking for trouble. ivey brought this upon himself by being too greedy.

obv ram is being a bitch here and should pay. dont get me wrong. but the "hustle" was poorly done if you want to keep any type of reputation. if you were going for a one-time big score, never to be seen again, then i suppose it worked, except you better be sure youre gonna get paid.

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

how much does Ram owe?

Re: Ram Vaswani speaks about that \'Golf Game\'.
 

[ QUOTE ]

And this brings up another issue. Since Ram was an idiot for taking Ivey's word on his golfing ability, isn't Ivey also an idiot for taking Ram's word that he has that kind of money to gamble with?

If Ram is responsible for not realizing that he was being lied to by a hustler, then shouldn't Ivey be responsible for allowing a potentially broke guy to freeroll him for a million dollars?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes exactly.

as much as ram is at fault for assuming that the handicaps were "fair", ivey is at fault for assuming ram would pay if he found out he was hustled. its a dynamic balance between the hustler and the hustled. it all works fine if the hustled accepts the fact that he got took, and pays up and learns his lesson. ivey misjudged ram to be that kinda guy i guess. i dont know how well known ram is in the gambling community. but if he doesnt pay, hes probably not gonna get any action again.