Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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and it sends a weird message ("listen children, its wrong to kill so sometimes when people do it we kill them")

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Yeah, just as it is hard to explain to kids that kidnapping is wrong, as "kidnappers who take the freedom away from other people will have their own freedom taken away from them by us/the government as we put them in prison for a certain period of time (usually far longer than the time the kidnapper took away the freedom of the kidnapee)"?

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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Anyone who has so little value for another human being's life does not deserve to live.

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Anyone?

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This is the important factor for me, not if a murder took place. To me, if a person shows so little respect for the value of another human being's life that he is willing to kill a person over something so insignificant then that person does not deserve to live himself.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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Yeah, just as it is hard to explain to kids that kidnapping is wrong, as "kidnappers who take the freedom away from other people will have their own freedom taken away from them by us/the government as we put them in prison for a certain period of time (usually far longer than the time the kidnapper took away the freedom of the kidnapee)"?

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You keep going back to this. How about this angle: "Listen kids, the man is dangerous to children and thus locked up so that he can't continue to do what he did."

Can we just establish that the death penalty is a lot more severe and, most importantly, irreversible than prison?

Some reaction is necessary, obviously. However, the question is death penalty or prison - not some punishment or nothing.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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I'll repeat Midge's point: "Once you get wrongfully executed you won't be very active in trying to rectify the perception of your guilt or innocence either!"


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I have Midge on ignore so I dont see his posts, but I can answer this one since you brought it up.

This is not an argument against the death penalty. People who are against the death penalty love to bring this up, but the argument is about the legality/morality of a death penalty altogether. There are cases where there is zero doubt about the guilt of the defendent, and in some cases that guy will be executed. People like myself find that fair. That person cannot be executed if the death penalty is not in place, and that would suck imo.

People that are being executed in the US have gone through so many trials over so many years that it seems hugely unlikely that annyone innocent are being executed. That makes the "but what about the innocent people that are being executed?"-argument rather trivial.

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You forgot the point that it's a ridiculous point anyway. I've seen several stories about families who tried for years after the execution to prove the innocence of a loved one, only to end up ultimately proving an even more rock solid case against their loved one than the state did.

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Yes, they just had to wait for the right technology to come along. DNA forensic did and still does exonerate many wrongfully condemned to death, or long prison terms. But I do appreciate that a screw would usually not be technology literate.

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MidGe, are you honestly going to challenge my knowledge of forensics with your own? I'm not denying that DNA evidence has exonerated some innocent people, but you really need a reality check here.

Just for the record, there is alot of spin placed on many of these cases. The DNA is either there, or it isn't. If they say "The DNA 'cast's doubt as to the guilt' of the convicted" what they really mean is "The evidence was DNA tested after the fact, but the results were inconclusive." Sometimes it also means "DNA tests were attempted, but a sufficient sample did not exist".

These are just headlines by people who have moral objections to the death penalty. If real evidence existed, ten thousand defense attorneys would be jumping all over it, which is exactly what happens when hard DNA evidence actually does exonerate someone.

It's amazing what a little leftist spin can do for a story.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

Well as I see capital punishment as a harder/tougher form of punishment than say a prison sentence I dont know how it is possible for me to talk about this issue with you.

And until someone comes up with a time machine Im pretty sure serving time in prison is also irreversable.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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Yeah, just as it is hard to explain to kids that kidnapping is wrong, as "kidnappers who take the freedom away from other people will have their own freedom taken away from them by us/the government as we put them in prison for a certain period of time (usually far longer than the time the kidnapper took away the freedom of the kidnapee)"?

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You keep going back to this. How about this angle: "Listen kids, the man is dangerous to children and thus locked up so that he can't continue to do what he did."

Can we just establish that the death penalty is a lot more severe and, most importantly, irreversible than prison?

Some reaction is necessary, obviously. However, the question is death penalty or prison - not some punishment or nothing.

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I think that was the first time I responded to the "you cannot tell someone that murder is wrong by killing them" with the "you cannot tell someone that taking peoples freedom away is wrong by taking their freedom away"-argument, so I fail to see how I "keep going back to this".

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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I'm against the death penalty, but wouldn't mind so much if the entire town of Gainesville was leveled... with extreme prejudice!

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No love for Title Town???? Please tell me you are from Ohio. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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Well, it's partly retribution, and part effeciency. If he gets sentance to the death penalty I don't see much reason to drag out his execution. It costs money that we shouldn't have to pay and allows him to live longer than he deserves imo.

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I think the 124 innocent Americans who were found innocent and released after receiving the death sentence strongly disagree.

As pointed out earlier in this thread, the X number of trials and tedious process of death row is very necessary if you're going to use the death penalty.

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This is true, I can agree that it would be prudent to allow some time for appeal or retrial if somethign nefarious went on during the first one.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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and it sends a weird message ("listen children, its wrong to kill so sometimes when people do it we kill them")

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Yeah, just as it is hard to explain to kids that kidnapping is wrong, as "kidnappers who take the freedom away from other people will have their own freedom taken away from them by us/the government as we put them in prison for a certain period of time (usually far longer than the time the kidnapper took away the freedom of the kidnapee)"?

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Imprisonment and rehabilitory politics will actually keep a nice lid on crime rates, and as such are effective means of punishment (in some countries). I don't understand what you are trying to say. Do you really think imprisonment is based on "an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth principle"? If so you have misunderstood law.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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And until someone comes up with a time machine Im pretty sure serving time in prison is also irreversable.

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Obviously an inmate found innocent will never be able to get his X years of life back. However, he will get back to a somewhat normal life. If you're dead, it doesn't help you much.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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Well as I see capital punishment as a harder/tougher form of punishment than say a prison sentence I dont know how it is possible for me to talk about this issue with you.

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It's certainly harder/tougher, but that's like saying a nuclear bomb is just a "tougher" version of a gun. Well, sure, but that doesn't mean that if I think firearms and automatic weapons are fine that I think nuclear weapons are fine.

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And until someone comes up with a time machine Im pretty sure serving time in prison is also irreversable.

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A life sentence can be reversed. A death sentence cannot. Sure, a life sentence cannot be fully reversed if someone has served some time, but a death sentence cannot be reversed at all. This is really an obvious objective truth, so I don't know why you would want to zone in on this distinction to make your argument.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

You said it sent a weird message if we said "listen children, its wrong to kill so sometimes when people do it we kill them".

This is no different than saying "listen children, its wrong to rob people from their freedom so sometimes when people do it we rob them from their freedom".

Whatever reasoning you have for imprisoning people it still is taking away their freedom, no matter how noble your motives for doing so are.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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This is no different than saying "listen children, its wrong to rob people from their freedom so sometimes when people do it we rob them from their freedom".

Whatever reasoning you have for imprisoning people it still is taking away their freedom, no matter how noble your motives for doing so are.

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True, but you have a very strong argument for taking away their freedom: The safety of people/society. However, assuming a 0% probability of the inmate escaping from prison, that argument doesn't hold for death sentences.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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- Since 1973, 124 prisoners have been released in the USA after evidence emerged of their innocence of the crimes for which they were sentenced to death.

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So they weren't actually "wrongfully executed" were they?

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It's ironic that someone could make light of this statistic while at the same time making light of the number of appeals someone on death row gets through the process:
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Regardless of that, he'll get his 15 appeals, he'll cost the state several millions just in court costs, and he'll probably still die in prison before his execution comes up

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So, correct me if I'm wrong but you advocate the death penalty with fewer opportunities to ensure that the innocent aren't killed. Got it.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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A life sentence can be reversed. A death sentence cannot. Sure, a life sentence cannot be fully reversed if someone has served some time, but a death sentence cannot be reversed at all. This is really an obvious objective truth, so I don't know why you would want to zone in on this distinction to make your argument.

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My defense of the capital punishment is made on the basis of a functioning fair legal system being in place, and that those who are given this punishment have committed the crimes under the circumstances that I feel warrants this perticular punishment.

When someone I think have fulfilled everything required for him being executed I dont want or need a reversable solution. Those criminals that I feel are deserving of this penalty I think we are better off without, and dont want them in prison or anywhere else.

And Im staying away from the firearm/nuclear weapon comparison.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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This is no different than saying "listen children, its wrong to rob people from their freedom so sometimes when people do it we rob them from their freedom".

Whatever reasoning you have for imprisoning people it still is taking away their freedom, no matter how noble your motives for doing so are.

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True, but you have a very strong argument for taking away their freedom: The safety of people/society. However, assuming a 0% probability of the inmate escaping from prison, that argument doesn't hold for death sentences.

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Im aware of the differances of being dead and being in prison, I just reacted to what I saw as a weird statement based on weird logic. I fully understand how someone can be in favor of sending people to prison for kidnapping while still being opposed to the death penalty for murder.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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You said it sent a weird message if we said "listen children, its wrong to kill so sometimes when people do it we kill them".

This is no different than saying "listen children, its wrong to rob people from their freedom so sometimes when people do it we rob them from their freedom".

Whatever reasoning you have for imprisoning people it still is taking away their freedom, no matter how noble your motives for doing so are.

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I don't really care for your semantic hogwash about two sentences that look alike. I could explain to kids that the man murdered a man, and therefore he should die - that isn't the point. And yes the sentences look alike but they are not.

Punishment and revenge are two different things, and if you can't see that I have no idea why you are even in this thread.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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When someone I think have fulfilled everything required for him being executed I dont want or need a reversable solution. Those criminals that I feel are deserving of this penalty I think we are better off without, and dont want them in prison or anywhere else.

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I'm going back to the 124 people I mentioned that got sentenced to death, but found innocent and released before the sentence was carried out.

I agree, the fact that they were found innocent prior to getting executed implies that the legal system is working. However, we must admit that errors occur and that there is a good chance that someone innocent has or will be executed for a crime he didn't commit.

That said, why would you not want a reversible punishment? I mean, if a person was found innocent after he was killed, you would want to bring him back to life if it was possible, right?

I am still waiting for some convincing argument for the need to kill people instead of a maximum security prison for life. Unless there is some non-trivial gain in the death penalty, I don't see why we would want to go for the irreversible option.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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You said it sent a weird message if we said "listen children, its wrong to kill so sometimes when people do it we kill them".

This is no different than saying "listen children, its wrong to rob people from their freedom so sometimes when people do it we rob them from their freedom".

Whatever reasoning you have for imprisoning people it still is taking away their freedom, no matter how noble your motives for doing so are.

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I don't really care for your semantic hogwash about two sentences that look alike. I could explain to kids that the man murdered a man, and therefore he should die - that isn't the point. And yes the sentences look alike but they are not.

Punishment and revenge are two different things, and if you can't see that I have no idea why you are even in this thread.

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The principle is exactly the same, and Im pretty sure you know it too.

And why do you make the assumption that my reasoning for the death penalty is based on revenge, and not punishment? If you read through the thread you will find a post where I point out that I do not think that "but someone might feel that being executed is getting off softly, and life in prison would be far worse" is a good argument, because its not about me wanting the convicted to suffer as much as possible (which would be revenge), its about the solution I feel is best for society.

If I was in favor of revenge as a form of punishment I would also be a proponent of torture and rape of those who have committed those crimes, but I can assure you I am not.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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I agree, the fact that they were found innocent prior to getting executed implies that the legal system is working. However, we must admit that errors occur and that there is a good chance that someone innocent has or will be executed for a crime he didn't commit.

That said, why would you not want a reversible punishment? I mean, if a person was found innocent after he was killed, you would want to bring him back to life if it was possible, right?

I am still waiting for some convincing argument for the need to kill people instead of a maximum security prison for life. Unless there is some non-trivial gain in the death penalty, I don't see why we would want to go for the irreversible option.

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Let me first ask you, is your opposition to the death penalty based on moral (it is wrong to kill anyone, even the worst murderers out there), or is it based on practibility (we risk killing someone who we might later find out is innocent)?

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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Let me first ask you, is your opposition to the death penalty based on moral (it is wrong to kill anyone, even the worst murderers out there), or is it based on practibility (we risk killing someone who we might later find out is innocent)?

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I already gave my 3 arguments against the death penalty. Consider my opposition a combination of those.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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When someone I think have fulfilled everything required for him being executed I dont want or need a reversable solution. Those criminals that I feel are deserving of this penalty I think we are better off without, and dont want them in prison or anywhere else.

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BUT...

When you put such a law in place based on subjective criteria for "execution eligibility" then the subjective nature of the criteria will inevitably lead to ever-expanding application of the law. We are talking about murder and punishment/revenge. These are emotionally charged events where passionate reactions are likely to rule (see OP) if there is not a clear, objective criteria for application. If you want to say "everyone who is videotaped doing crime X and DNA evidence is found and two eye witnesses are available and the victim was a minor" or something, then you have a chance of controlling the scope of your law. But when you say "let's execute everyone found guilty of really bad crimes and only when we're really sure" you are inviting disaster.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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- Since 1973, 124 prisoners have been released in the USA after evidence emerged of their innocence of the crimes for which they were sentenced to death.

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So they weren't actually "wrongfully executed" were they?

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Wow, are you serious? I hope you realize how horrifically flawed this is. If the CIA catches like 7 spies, do they come to the conclusion that there are no spies in this country?

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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The principle is exactly the same, and Im pretty sure you know it too.

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Huh? Now I don't even know what we are talking about anymore. I certainly don't think criminal punishment is about revenge, that is a principle most civilized societies left behind hundreds of years ago. Though I'm sure many get their kicks out of believing it is and like it.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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So they weren't actually "wrongfully executed" were they?

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They were sentenced to death.

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Thats like arguing against the morality of sentencing people to serve time in prison based on the fact that people that have served time in prison are later found to beinnocent, and the government have wrongfully taken away their freedom for an often substantial time. Noone is arguing in favor of punishing innocent people.

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Ummm....except those people can later be released. So no, it isnt like that.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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But when you say "let's execute everyone found guilty of really bad crimes and only when we're really sure" you are inviting disaster.

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Well my reasoning in this thread have mainly been based on whether or not I find the death penalty morally acceptable, which I do.

I don´t think the "really sure" will be relevant, as I dont think we should put people in prison at all if we are just "really sure".

I dont think it invites disaster either, as the US has had the death penalty for 3 decades now, and only about 1000 have been executed, and I dont think anyone has found it likely that anyone of those might have been innocent. Do you feel that the current situation in the US is a disaster when it comes to the death penalty and how it is applied?

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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So Bedreviter is right. Its no different than sentencing someone to prison who is innocent. A tragedy, but no one but a few fringe nutjobs are actually calling for the abolition of the prison system for the reason that a small minority of people are wrongfully convicted.

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As long as the innocent person isn't killed in time, you're right. However, you are arguing for killing him, right?

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Yea, ignore what I said at the top of the thread, I was in the middle of some female induced tilt.

The truth is, the appeals system works. It does become a pain though, because so many of these guys know they're guilty, their attorneys know they're guilty, and there is plenty of hard evidence to prove guilt, so they clog up the court system with minor technicalities.

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So if it worked faster....then your points in this thread would be even MORE wrong?

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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The principle is exactly the same, and Im pretty sure you know it too.

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Huh? Now I don't even know what we are talking about anymore. I certainly don't think criminal punishment is about revenge, that is a principle most civilized societies left behind hundreds of years ago. Though I'm sure many get their kicks out of believing it is and like it.

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I was talking about the principle that the two sentences was based upon, which you argued were different. If you saw the text that I had written that was under that line that you chose to quote you would see that I had clarified my view on punishment/revenge, so Im quite surprised that you missed it. But Im sure you didn´t ignore it on purpose...

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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Long answer: Yes, in some cases

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Im not in favor of punishing people on the varying degree of how likely they are to be guilty of a crime. If someone is 30% likely to have killed someone, are we giving him a fine? 50%=House arrest? 75%=5 years? 90%=10 years?

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Neither am I. However, death is final, prison is not. We know that innocent people do get convicted (see previous references).

I'm against the death penalty all together, you're the one who's for it "in some cases". Explain?

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Yes, innocent people have been convicted. But you seem unable to accept the fact that they have been convicted in the first stage of a multi-stage system, and they have later been cleared of their charges when they have gone on to the next stage in the road to the poison-needle. From what Ive read there is little reason to believe that anyone of those that have been executed in the US after the reintroduction of the death penalty has been wrongfully punished.

Im in favor of the death penalty in some cases, as in "the worst cases".

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You mean there are actually people who are in favor of the death penalty who are NOT in favor of shortening the appeals process and making it a more efficient and cost-effective process from beginning to end? I've never met one.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

Well hi. Pleased to be the first then.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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Well my reasoning in this thread have mainly been based on whether or not I find the death penalty morally acceptable, which I do.

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Fair enough.

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I don´t think the "really sure" will be relevant, as I dont think we should put people in prison at all if we are just "really sure".

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But I think people do go to prison on flimsy evidence and emotional appeals. Don't you?

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I dont think it invites disaster either, as the US has had the death penalty for 3 decades now, and only about 1000 have been executed, and I dont think anyone has found it likely that anyone of those might have been innocent.

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Do you know? Do you have any idea if anyone is even bothering to check? I don't. But I'm scared to hell of what an angry jury will do given a chance.

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Do you feel that the current situation in the US is a disaster when it comes to the death penalty and how it is applied?

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For sure. Millions of dollars of tax payer money to get...what exactly? Emotional closure for some victim's family? Revenge? What?

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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The principle is exactly the same, and Im pretty sure you know it too.

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Huh? Now I don't even know what we are talking about anymore. I certainly don't think criminal punishment is about revenge, that is a principle most civilized societies left behind hundreds of years ago. Though I'm sure many get their kicks out of believing it is and like it.

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I was talking about the principle that the two sentences was based upon, which you argued were different. If you saw the text that I had written that was under that line that you chose to quote you would see that I had clarified my view on punishment/revenge, so Im quite surprised that you missed it. But Im sure you didn´t ignore it on purpose...

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Great. I oppose the death penalty as a form punishment because in a modern society it has high cost of error (ethically), enormous costs and little utility. I oppose most long prison sentences for the same reasons.

And then you can debate against that if you wish, and how you can avoid revenge casting a fairly heavy shadow on the death penalty arguments.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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I already gave my 3 arguments against the death penalty. Consider my opposition a combination of those.

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Im in favor of the death penalty (for some crimes) when the guilt is proven without any doubt. DNA, videotape, number of reliable witnesses, accurate confession and such is in place.

I dont feel that prison is a good alternative in any cases where guilt is not proven without any doubt, I rather see the suspect going free until the case is strong enough for a trial, or him going free. I dont want anyone to be sent to prison on the assumption that we are very sure he did it, but cannot prove it fully, and then if we 4 years later find out we can release him and think "well, that wasnt so bad now was it?".

Think the jury and the judge also will be very careful about sentencing anyone to death without the question of guilt being proven, as they dont have the safety net of "well if we 20 years down the road find out we were wrong we can just let the poor guy out". And as the road from first being given the death penalty to the actual execution taking place is very long and involves multiple lengthy trials and appeals I find the possibility of someone innocent going through all of them and still ending up being executed as extremely small. Today with the technology and DNA and all that I believe that for someone to be innocently executed in the US is so slim its of interest to statistics-freaks only.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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I dont think it invites disaster either, as the US has had the death penalty for 3 decades now, and only about 1000 have been executed, and I dont think anyone has found it likely that anyone of those might have been innocent.

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You're right, but I want to post this fact:

- Around 3,350 prisoners were under sentence of death as of 1 January 2007

Additionally, I already posted a link to some extremely sketchy death penalty sentences that were carried out. I disagree with you and find it extremely likely that an innocent person has already been legally executed in USA.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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Im in favor of the death penalty (for some crimes) when the guilt is proven without any doubt. DNA, videotape, number of reliable witnesses, accurate confession and such is in place.

I dont feel that prison is a good alternative in any cases where guilt is not proven without any doubt, I rather see the suspect going free until the case is strong enough for a trial, or him going free. I dont want anyone to be sent to prison on the assumption that we are very sure he did it, but cannot prove it fully, and then if we 4 years later find out we can release him and think "well, that wasnt so bad now was it?".

Think the jury and the judge also will be very careful about sentencing anyone to death without the question of guilt being proven, as they dont have the safety net of "well if we 20 years down the road find out we were wrong we can just let the poor guy out". And as the road from first being given the death penalty to the actual execution taking place is very long and involves multiple lengthy trials and appeals I find the possibility of someone innocent going through all of them and still ending up being executed as extremely small. Today with the technology and DNA and all that I believe that for someone to be innocently executed in the US is so slim its of interest to statistics-freaks only.

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Uhm? I don't think anybody here has argued for finding someone guilty when there is doubt.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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But I think people do go to prison on flimsy evidence and emotional appeals. Don't you?

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Probably in some cases, but not in major trials where murder and the possibility of a death penalty is relevant. And Im confident that if one trial is screwed up or maybe even two they will find justice a long time before they are ready for the execution.

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Do you know? Do you have any idea if anyone is even bothering to check? I don't. But I'm scared to hell of what an angry jury will do given a chance.

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I remember having read (from what I at the time determined to be credible sources) that some independent groups (also those with an interest against the death penalty involved) had gone through all cases (where the suspect had been executed) that some felt were controversial, and found that there was no reason to believe that anyone had been wrongfully executed. Thats not worth much without a link or refernce to the material, but thats what I base my argument upon. And there are plenty of people out there interrested in checking these cases and helping out those on death row.

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For sure. Millions of dollars of tax payer money to get...what exactly? Emotional closure for some victim's family? Revenge? What?

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Ok, so a disaster financially, that might be true. But I was more thinking of it as a disaster as in "do you think that the system leading to execution of convicts today can be classified as a disaster?", leaving the cost out of it.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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Uhm? I don't think anybody here has argued for finding someone guilty when there is doubt.

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Then why are we concerned about innocent people being executed?

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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Then why are we concerned about innocent people being executed?

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First of all, there is something known as "beyond reasonable doubt". If you require video footage to ever sentence anybody, crime increase dramatically.

Second, it should be obvious that the person might be innocent even if there was no apparent doubt during trials.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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Great. I oppose the death penalty as a form punishment because in a modern society it has high cost of error (ethically), enormous costs and little utility. I oppose most long prison sentences for the same reasons.

And then you can debate against that if you wish, and how you can avoid revenge casting a fairly heavy shadow on the death penalty arguments.

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Im in favor of death penalty and long prison sentences because the high cost of error of releasing known murderers that may not be as rehabilitated that we would like to think they are far exceeds the cost of having them in prison.

Im talking about my defense of the death penalty, and I assure you it has nothing to do with revenge, its what I feel is the proper solution for the society in dealing with some murderers. I believe that the judges in the trials and appeals needed before someone can be executed are level headed and therefore will avoid sentencing people to death based on pity revenge.

Re: This is why I\'m for the death penalty.
 

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Second, it should be obvious that the person might be innocent even if there was no apparent doubt during trials.

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So prison when we are "beyond reasonable doubt", and death penalty when "there is no doubt what so ever". Videotape, DNA, confession and such sometimes makes the case 100% slam dunk, and there is no way whatsoever that anyone will think that the person is innocent.