Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
still TT pwns hanley by a sick amount

[/ QUOTE ]

this is so wrong. Look at the correct UZR values as posted earlier. Here it is again if you missed.

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/inde...st_of_2007_uzr

Tulowitzki +20
Ramirez -20

Then look at VORP. They are the same position, so you shouldn't get confused for this one.

Ramirez 89.5
Tulowitzki 37.8

Ramirez was worth 69.5 runs when you combine them. Tulowitzki 57.8 runs. Not to mention the park factors.

Good night.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
still TT pwns hanley by a sick amount

[/ QUOTE ]

this is so wrong. Look at the correct UZR values as posted earlier. Here it is again if you missed.

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/inde...st_of_2007_uzr

Tulowitzki +20
Ramirez -20

Then look at VORP. They are the same position, so you shouldn't get confused for this one.

Ramirez 89.5
Tulowitzki 37.8

Ramirez was worth 69.5 runs when you combine them. Tulowitzki 57.8 runs. Not to mention the park factors.

Good night.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, like i have a bad day and sound like an idiot. this is like normal for you though. so YOURE saying hanley was like one win better than TT.....yet you dont think RB was a terribe choice for ROY?


how [censored] stupid can you be?


(also, my post about TT pwning HR was OBVIOUSLY IN REGARDS TO FIELDING as thats what was being discussed)

i can go to bed knowing that even on my worst day i am light years ahead of retards like you.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]

rollins has been good for a long while now.

[/ QUOTE ]

now you're changing your argument. you said rollins > utley going ahead. rollins has only been remotely close to utley's level for ONE season, this one. he has been great, therefore, for ONE season, one that looks like a career year. stop overrating people based on one season.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

Both VORP (offense, in case you haven't figured that stat out yet) and UZR (defense) were being discussed. With as much incorrect information that you provided in this thread, why would I assume you were pointing out something obvious (that TT > HR in fielding) instead of backing up your earlier wrong assumption (that TT > HR overall)?

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

rollins has been good for a long while now.

[/ QUOTE ]

now you're changing your argument. you said rollins > utley going ahead. rollins has only been remotely close to utley's level for ONE season, this one. he has been great, therefore, for ONE season, one that looks like a career year. stop overrating people based on one season.

[/ QUOTE ]


wtf.

i already stated my agrument about rollins being > going forward was based on projected WARP from PECOTA. not on one great season.

i really want to be shot right now so i am not compelled to come back for more of this.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
the thing is, replacement level SS's are worth more than replacement level 1B.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the thing is, replacement level SS's are worth more than replacement level 1B.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[/ QUOTE ]

shouldn't you be out getting drunk and hitting on all the loose political interns in DC Thremp?

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the thing is, replacement level SS's are worth more than replacement level 1B.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[/ QUOTE ]


you are right, i was wrong with that assumption (wow kids see how easy it is to admit you are incorrect?).

i know it doesn't measure defense quaility, but i was silly to assume that replacement level SS > replacement level 1B.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the thing is, replacement level SS's are worth more than replacement level 1B.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[/ QUOTE ]


you are right, i was wrong with that assumption (wow kids see how easy it is to admit you are incorrect?).

i know it doesn't measure defense quaility, but i was silly to assume that replacement level SS > replacement level 1B.

[/ QUOTE ]


Sublime, you seem to be having a bad night. You should hit the showers, or go to sleep (I'm saying this in the least [censored] way possible).

Hey, here's an awesome music video to cheer you up.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

ty muresan. i am going to showers actually.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

warp is a pretty bad stat. that being said, while tulowitzki should have won the roty, it's not like choosing braun was absolutely ludicrous. sorry.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
warp is a pretty bad stat. that being said, while tulowitzki should have won the roty, it's not like choosing braun was absolutely ludicrous. sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's pretty bad. Even given debates about fielding metrics, Tulo had a total run value anywhere from 50-200% better than Braun.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

don't get me wrong; i think tulo should win it going away. that being said, is it really surprising that braun won it? personally, i am surprised it was as close as it was.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

Obv it's not surprising. That's different debate.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
warp is a pretty bad stat. that being said, while tulowitzki should have won the roty, it's not like choosing braun was absolutely ludicrous. sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely not as bad as Morneau winning MVP.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

yes that one was actually unacceptable. this one is much closer.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

Who cares? We know how they are picked. Why should we suprised, or even care anymore.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No biggie.. just like having one of the best fielding teams ever and not getting a gold glove.

Just like having only one Bronco in the Hall of Fame.

This is to be expected here.

If Tulo played for a NY team he would have had a much better chance.

[/ QUOTE ]
shut the [censored] up

[/ QUOTE ]

Wasn't crying about anything, but its definitely true. Midwest teams get jobbed on stuff like this. Only one Bronco in the Hall of Fame is a total joke. If a handful of our players were on the East Coast they woulda been in for sure. This is just expected. Same reason Holliday likely won't get MVP. I would be absolutely amazed if he did. Unless they are just clearly head and shoulders above the competition (TD back when he got MVP) there is a huge regional bias.

Also, not sure why you two implied I was crying about it. My entire post was that of complacency above. Who cares about votes like this? They aren't indicative of anything.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
Same reason Holliday likely won't get MVP.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe, but Holliday shouldn't win MVP anyway.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
Meh, I'm probably the biggest Rockies fan on this board and I'm ok with it.


99,968 and counting

[/ QUOTE ]

STFU TROLL

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

Your location lies.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

It's better for the Rockies if TT loses the award, Scott Boras won't come in asking for 10 million more because he won ROY. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

I was expecting this

Braun mashes

GREAT SUCCESS!!!

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No biggie.. just like having one of the best fielding teams ever and not getting a gold glove.

Just like having only one Bronco in the Hall of Fame.

This is to be expected here.

If Tulo played for a NY team he would have had a much better chance.

[/ QUOTE ]
shut the [censored] up

[/ QUOTE ]

Wasn't crying about anything, but its definitely true. Midwest teams get jobbed on stuff like this. Only one Bronco in the Hall of Fame is a total joke. If a handful of our players were on the East Coast they woulda been in for sure. This is just expected. Same reason Holliday likely won't get MVP. I would be absolutely amazed if he did. Unless they are just clearly head and shoulders above the competition (TD back when he got MVP) there is a huge regional bias.

Also, not sure why you two implied I was crying about it. My entire post was that of complacency above. Who cares about votes like this? They aren't indicative of anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why did Morneau win MVP last year over Jeter???

And is Wisconsin located on the east coast?

Tulo shoulda won though.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

Also because of the obvious Pro-Milwaukee bias in media.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

ryan braun had a 153 OPS+ to tolowitskis 108

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
ryan braun had a 153 OPS+ to tolowitskis 108

[/ QUOTE ]
No one's debating that. It's just that Tulo's defense more than made up for the difference. Way more.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also because of the obvious Pro-Milwaukee bias in media.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said Braun didn't deserve it. The point of this thread was "Rockies fans are gonna be pissed", the point of my post was Colorado fans don't care because our guys don't win awards.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
warp is a pretty bad stat. that being said, while tulowitzki should have won the roty, it's not like choosing braun was absolutely ludicrous. sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's pretty bad. Even given debates about fielding metrics, Tulo had a total run value anywhere from 50-200% better than Braun.

[/ QUOTE ]
what would ryan braun's stats look like if he got to play in the rockies gimmick park for half his games? looking at tulowitzki's home/away splits is like night and day

same for mvp candidate holliday. rockies players should be disqualified from eligibility for any award that takes offense into account

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

The Rockies have been in the mlb for like 15 years and you're complaining about awards.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
The Rockies have been in the mlb for like 15 years and you're complaining about awards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who is? My whole post at first was saying it doesn't matter no one is gonna be pissed.

I'm certainly not complaining about awards, I am saying in all sports we are used to not caring about them here.

Please quote where I was complaining about this award. I may have improperly inferred it be saying we are historically jobbed on awards here, but I never said Tulo deserved it more and I never said I am pissed about this.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
what would ryan braun's stats look like if he got to play in the rockies gimmick park for half his games? looking at tulowitzki's home/away splits is like night and day

same for mvp candidate holliday. rockies players should be disqualified from eligibility for any award that takes offense into account

[/ QUOTE ]
Uhhh, isn't VORP park-adjusted? I always thought it was.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
warp is a pretty bad stat. that being said, while tulowitzki should have won the roty, it's not like choosing braun was absolutely ludicrous. sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's pretty bad. Even given debates about fielding metrics, Tulo had a total run value anywhere from 50-200% better than Braun.

[/ QUOTE ]
what would ryan braun's stats look like if he got to play in the rockies gimmick park for half his games? looking at tulowitzki's home/away splits is like night and day

same for mvp candidate holliday. rockies players should be disqualified from eligibility for any award that takes offense into account

[/ QUOTE ]

And like I said earlier, this goes even more for Phillies players right?

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]

what would ryan braun's stats look like if he got to play in the rockies gimmick park for half his games? looking at tulowitzki's home/away splits is like night and day

[/ QUOTE ]
TT has a .719 away OPS?!? This is what voters (who are always 2 or 3 stats behind the times, at least with respect to stat nerds) see.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
warp is a pretty bad stat. that being said, while tulowitzki should have won the roty, it's not like choosing braun was absolutely ludicrous. sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's pretty bad. Even given debates about fielding metrics, Tulo had a total run value anywhere from 50-200% better than Braun.

[/ QUOTE ]
what would ryan braun's stats look like if he got to play in the rockies gimmick park for half his games? looking at tulowitzki's home/away splits is like night and day

same for mvp candidate holliday. rockies players should be disqualified from eligibility for any award that takes offense into account

[/ QUOTE ]

And like I said earlier, this goes even more for Phillies players right?

[/ QUOTE ]
using baseball reference's park factor, coors field is a good bit more offense friendly than citizens bank park

are baseball reference's park factors off?

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
warp is a pretty bad stat. that being said, while tulowitzki should have won the roty, it's not like choosing braun was absolutely ludicrous. sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's pretty bad. Even given debates about fielding metrics, Tulo had a total run value anywhere from 50-200% better than Braun.

[/ QUOTE ]
what would ryan braun's stats look like if he got to play in the rockies gimmick park for half his games? looking at tulowitzki's home/away splits is like night and day

same for mvp candidate holliday. rockies players should be disqualified from eligibility for any award that takes offense into account

[/ QUOTE ]

And like I said earlier, this goes even more for Phillies players right?

[/ QUOTE ]
using baseball reference's park factor, coors field is a good bit more offense friendly than citizens bank park

are baseball reference's park factors off?

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh, I was under the impression that Coors Field was no longer the offensive juggernaut field that it used to be. Maybe I'm thinking solely of HRs?

EDIT: Guess I should have said Boston.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

what would ryan braun's stats look like if he got to play in the rockies gimmick park for half his games? looking at tulowitzki's home/away splits is like night and day

[/ QUOTE ]
TT has a .719 away OPS?!? This is what voters (who are always 2 or 3 stats behind the times, at least with respect to stat nerds) see.

[/ QUOTE ]
sadly most of the voters are probably still using ba/rbi/hr, and even those look pretty bad for troy when looking at his splits

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
Huh, I was under the impression that Coors Field was no longer the offensive juggernaut field that it used to be. Maybe I'm thinking solely of HRs?

[/ QUOTE ]
according to baseball reference coors was 109 for batting and pitching (over 100 favors batting) while citizens was 104 for batting and 103 for pitching this year. dunno how accurate their numbers are though

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Huh, I was under the impression that Coors Field was no longer the offensive juggernaut field that it used to be. Maybe I'm thinking solely of HRs?

[/ QUOTE ]
according to baseball reference coors was 109 for batting and pitching (over 100 favors batting) while citizens was 104 for batting and 103 for pitching this year. dunno how accurate their numbers are though

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do you have that number? I can only find the 3 year averages for 2007 (so presumably 2005-2007) and its 108 for batting at Coors and 105 for batting at Citizens Bank. Still probably a pretty significant advantage, to be sure, but I dont ever hear anyone talk about how infalted Rollins and Utleys and Howards numbers are because they play there. Ditto for ManRam and Papi.

And bear in mind, when I say "anyone" I mean typical sports fans and media, not people who actually use park-adjusted numbers and such.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what would ryan braun's stats look like if he got to play in the rockies gimmick park for half his games? looking at tulowitzki's home/away splits is like night and day

same for mvp candidate holliday. rockies players should be disqualified from eligibility for any award that takes offense into account

[/ QUOTE ]
Uhhh, isn't VORP park-adjusted? I always thought it was.

[/ QUOTE ]
From what I can gather, yes VORP is park adjusted.