Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
.... Displays that pretty well. The development of the IC was about weight and power which was required for NASA missions. Monetary profit of some corporation had nothing to do with the decision to go for ICs. Development of the IC was going to happen "at all costs". ....

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree with your points here, I have some serious doubts that government agencies are up to tasks like this today. My pessimism stems from working many years for defense contractors and DOE funded national lab. Could be convinced otherwise though.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something I definitely need to learn more about. Nobel Laureate Richard Smalley, who pushed the Apollo Energy program, was highly critical of the DOE and their ability to get tasks done. I found that criticism coming from him strange as not only was it at odds with his Apollo energy program but the vast majority of breakthroughs in solar technology came from DOE funded projects. So the DOE seemed to be good at something. Maybe it was due to the lack of competition. He said this country needs to be motivated the way Kennedy motivated the US when we decided to go to the moon. There may be a very real possibility that this country might need something equivalent of a technological and environmental pearl harbor or sputnik scare in order to get on their feat and solve the problems facing us. (heh now I'm sounding like a neocon) Humans are infamous for ignoring distant dangers. The political situation seems to be far more complex then my current knowledge allows me to understand and literature on this topic is simply hard to come by. I certainly sympathize with your sentiments but unfortunately I am unable to contribute much.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Greed is good. Until you learn that point you will continue to work for the man.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you learn economics from Hollywood?

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My guess is you work for a wage and vote Democrat.

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There are 3 parties (Libs, Dems, and Republicans) you guessed which one I vote for the least.

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When Government directs resources it is ineffecient no matter what good comes of it. Government does not allocate resorces effeciently or to the highest and best use.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you can't get your historical facts right then making unsupported absolute ideological proclamations certainly seems to be the way to go. I'm not denying that there is waste in government. There certainly is. But your absolute decrees that government can never do something as well as or better than private industry is just silly. Your own examples in this thread should prove that.

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Government takes money by force and uses it a way that it would not be used in a competitive market.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the case of computers that was apparently a very good thing. According to a few topics I read on the subject private industry supported discrete circuits and not integrated circuits due to cheaper short term costs. Private industry rarely looks into the future beyond timelines that are profitable under current patent laws.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you are blind or ignorant, your life experiences are simply differant than mine. When you call someone blind and ignorant and then say their is no black and white etc., I hope you realize you contradict yourself. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I should rephrase. Life is not a binary black and white. Everything is situational. But arguments put forward in your posts do in fact put you pretty far in the dark side of ignorant when it comes to the history of computing, geology and basic physics. Your argument that:

I can't fathom anyone would think anything other than the profit motive led us to the great developments of the computer.

Displays that pretty well. The development of the IC was about weight and power which was required for NASA missions. Monetary profit of some corporation had nothing to do with the decision to go for ICs. Development of the IC was going to happen "at all costs".

Maybe you should read up on history a little more before you start preaching the binary "greed is good, guvment is evil" ideology.

you can have the last word. I doubt I will responding to this thread again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to point out that yet again you are falling into the fallacious trap of assuming that the incentive which drove a result we see today was the only path to that result that could have ever happened. ie. if X hadn't driven the research to do Y, Y would never have happened, just because X happened to have driven the work toward achieving the version of Y that we know today.

A very *common* example of this one is claiming that without the government we wouldn't have an internet just because ARPAnet was one of the first examples of distributed computer networks. It stretches credulity to believe that no one other than the ARPAnet folks would have ever devised the technology to link computers together. But this claim is thrown around regularly by big-government proponents who can't see beyond was "is" for what "is likely".

That is a big fallacy but a common one that people fall into.

natedogg

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

I played poker with John Coleman at Viejas, for real. Weatherman out here? He's really old, plays fishy. Heard something that he slipped and fell, almost died.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to point out that yet again you are falling into the fallacious trap of assuming that the incentive which drove a result we see today was the only path to that result that could have ever happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

Natedogg, I was wondering when you would jump into this thread. As I said earlier in this thread:

I have no intention of proving what would of happened if none of the government research programs occurred. Getting into an argument like that would be futile. I simply showed that your understanding of computer history is on the level of gross ignorance. And if you don't understand history how could you possibly predict the future?

Arguing "what could have been" or "what could be in the future" with those that don't understand history is futile. I strongly disagree with your previously expressed position that government made no significant impact on the timeline of computer development but I do not wish to debate that. You and I have been over that before and those conversations generally degrade into little more than an exercise of political masturbation with nothing really informative coming to fruition. They are a waste of time.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to point out that yet again you are falling into the fallacious trap of assuming that the incentive which drove a result we see today was the only path to that result that could have ever happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

Natedogg, I was wondering when you would jump into this thread. As I said earlier in this thread:

I have no intention of proving what would of happened if none of the government research programs occurred. Getting into an argument like that would be futile. I simply showed that your understanding of computer history is on the level of gross ignorance. And if you don't understand history how could you possibly predict the future?

Arguing "what could have been" or "what could be in the future" with those that don't understand history is futile. I strongly disagree with your previously expressed position that government made no significant impact on the timeline of computer development but I do not wish to debate that. You and I have been over that before and those conversations generally degrade into little more than an exercise of political masturbation with nothing really informative coming to fruition. They are a waste of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Government at many levels spend money on lots of stuff, roads, parks, defense, schools, health care, mail delivery, etc. To say that that spending was effecient or created a market is a stretch. That spending is just part of the demand for goods and services and it was sucked from a productive part of our economy which would probably have spent the money in a more effecient manner. I just don't get how liberals who hate W can ever think giving the government to spend money as it sees fit is ever a good idea!

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't get how liberals who hate W can ever think giving the government to spend money as it sees fit is ever a good idea!

[/ QUOTE ]

theyre alreay after a carbon tax and they're not even gonna apply the money to solving the problem, which is almost certainly a made up nonproblem to begin with.

at least if they spent all taht money on solar RD there would be somting to show for it.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
That spending is just part of the demand for goods and services and it was sucked from a productive part of our economy which would probably have spent the money in a more effecient manner.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are lots of areas where government spending is more efficient than private enterprise. The pharmaceutical industry, which I work in, is filled with examples of this. The easiest to understand is vaccines which private industry generally doesn't touch due to the lack of profits despite enormous benefits to society as a whole. Many people forget that the polio is still the leading cause of disabilities in the the US. The first effective vaccine wasn't invented by big pharma but in the University of Pittsburgh. To say the polio vaccine was a waste of government money is to express gross ignorance on the extreme amounts of damage it did to the world population and even the effect it has on our current GDP many decades after the virus has been eradicated from our country. It doesn't stop there. An in some industries private companies actually fight hard to destroy efficient technology. The great American streetcar scandal is one such instance. History has frequently shown private industry's primary motivator isn't efficiency or even high quality products. Way too many scandals, shelving and neglect of superior products/services have shown that private industry is about profit maximization and many companies will do whatever it takes to get there.

Another example, a frequent tactic among pharma is to alter a naturally occurring drug so that it can be patented. It does not matter if we are reducing the potency of the drug or creating something that causes serious side effects. What matters is that we get that patent and we don't care if people die because the drug is less effective than it's natural byproduct.

You can keep preaching your blind ideology and spouting incorrect historical facts. Or you can read history and realize that both big government and pure capitalism have big problems.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to point out that yet again you are falling into the fallacious trap of assuming that the incentive which drove a result we see today was the only path to that result that could have ever happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

Natedogg, I was wondering when you would jump into this thread. As I said earlier in this thread:

I have no intention of proving what would of happened if none of the government research programs occurred. Getting into an argument like that would be futile. I simply showed that your understanding of computer history is on the level of gross ignorance. And if you don't understand history how could you possibly predict the future?

Arguing "what could have been" or "what could be in the future" with those that don't understand history is futile. I strongly disagree with your previously expressed position that government made no significant impact on the timeline of computer development but I do not wish to debate that. You and I have been over that before and those conversations generally degrade into little more than an exercise of political masturbation with nothing really informative coming to fruition. They are a waste of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am merely pointing out the logical fallacy in your thinking. Correct me if I'm wrong but you flat out claimed that certain technologies could only have occurred as a result of the the government research the went behind them. I am pointing out that your assertion rests on an actual logical fallacy and one that you commonly fall into at that.

natedogg

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That spending is just part of the demand for goods and services and it was sucked from a productive part of our economy which would probably have spent the money in a more effecient manner.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are lots of areas where government spending is more efficient than private enterprise. The pharmaceutical industry, which I work in, is filled with examples of this. The easiest to understand is vaccines which private industry generally doesn't touch due to the lack of profits despite enormous benefits to society as a whole. Many people forget that the polio is still the leading cause of disabilities in the the US. The first effective vaccine wasn't invented by big pharma but in the University of Pittsburgh. To say the polio vaccine was a waste of government money is to express gross ignorance on the extreme amounts of damage it did to the world population and even the effect it has on our current GDP many decades after the virus has been eradicated from our country. It doesn't stop there. An in some industries private companies actually fight hard to destroy efficient technology. The great American streetcar scandal is one such instance. History has frequently shown private industry's primary motivator isn't efficiency or even high quality products. Way too many scandals, shelving and neglect of superior products/services have shown that private industry is about profit maximization and many companies will do whatever it takes to get there.

Another example, a frequent tactic among pharma is to alter a naturally occurring drug so that it can be patented. It does not matter if we are reducing the potency of the drug or creating something that causes serious side effects. What matters is that we get that patent and we don't care if people die because the drug is less effective than it's natural byproduct.

You can keep preaching your blind ideology and spouting incorrect historical facts. Or you can read history and realize that both big government and pure capitalism have big problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did these comnpanies who produced shoddy products prosper? I think not and that is the beauty of free market capitalism.

You should open your eyes a little on the polio vaccine which is suspected of causing cancer and evidence suggests he may not have even been much help in stopping polio:

Polio is virtually nonexistent in the United States today. However, according to Dr. Robert Mendelsohn, medical investigator and pediatrician, there is no credible scientific evidence that the vaccine caused polio to disappear [50]. From 1923 to 1953, before the Salk killed-virus vaccine was introduced, the polio death rate in the United States and England had already declined on its own by 47 percent and 55 percent, respectively (Figure 4) [51]. Statis-tics show a similar decline in other European countries as well [51]. And when the vaccine did become available, many European countries questioned its effectiveness and refused to systematically inoculate their citizens. Yet, polio epidemics also ended in these countries [50].

Full paper and footnotes here: http://www.thinktwice.com/Polio.pdf

Your critique of capitalism fails to look at the higher living standards and quality of life it brought to the US and more recently India and China.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to point out that yet again you are falling into the fallacious trap of assuming that the incentive which drove a result we see today was the only path to that result that could have ever happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

Natedogg, I was wondering when you would jump into this thread. As I said earlier in this thread:

I have no intention of proving what would of happened if none of the government research programs occurred. Getting into an argument like that would be futile. I simply showed that your understanding of computer history is on the level of gross ignorance. And if you don't understand history how could you possibly predict the future?

Arguing "what could have been" or "what could be in the future" with those that don't understand history is futile. I strongly disagree with your previously expressed position that government made no significant impact on the timeline of computer development but I do not wish to debate that. You and I have been over that before and those conversations generally degrade into little more than an exercise of political masturbation with nothing really informative coming to fruition. They are a waste of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am merely pointing out the logical fallacy in your thinking. Correct me if I'm wrong but you flat out claimed that certain technologies could only have occurred as a result of the the government research the went behind them. I am pointing out that your assertion rests on an actual logical fallacy and one that you commonly fall into at that.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]

In the history of my posting on 2p2 I doubt I would have used such a statement that covers all of eternity. I tend to speak in rates and likelihood of development. Extend the time line long enough and even the worst system will create something grand. But experience has taught me that those discussions on this board are generally fruitless and it saves much heartache to discuss historical time lines because the facts are less subjective. You can insult my reasoning as much as you like but my historical facts are plentiful and accurate.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
Did these comnpanies who produced shoddy products prosper?

[/ QUOTE ]

They got filthy rich. In fact many of them are fortune 500 companies. In fact tobacco companies in the past have actually made their products MORE poisonous rather than less by adding toxic chemicals and radioactive polonium. That is until the lawsuits started rolling in. They knew exactly what they were doing the whole way. I'm willing to bet all those investigations executed by the CDC were a waste of time in your mind.

[ QUOTE ]
I think not and that is the beauty of free market capitalism.

[/ QUOTE ]

:-D

[ QUOTE ]
You should open your eyes a little on the polio vaccine which is suspected of causing cancer and evidence suggests he may not have even been much help in stopping polio:

Polio is virtually nonexistent in the United States today. However, according to Dr. Robert Mendelsohn, medical investigator and pediatrician, there is no credible scientific evidence that the vaccine caused polio to disappear [50]. From 1923 to 1953, before the Salk killed-virus vaccine was introduced, the polio death rate in the United States and England had already declined on its own by 47 percent and 55 percent, respectively (Figure 4) [51]. Statis-tics show a similar decline in other European countries as well [51]. And when the vaccine did become available, many European countries questioned its effectiveness and refused to systematically inoculate their citizens. Yet, polio epidemics also ended in these countries [50].

Full paper and footnotes here: http://www.thinktwice.com/Polio.pdf


[/ QUOTE ]

Well this isn't the first time you've linked to a crappy source. Maybe you should check out the discovery institute that claims evolution is a scam theory. Or how about the OISM which headed by "tobacco doesn't cause cancer" frauds. Oh wait, you already did that. If you want a serious discussion I suggest you stick to peer review with an impact factors 2 and above or an accredited scientific institution.

straight from the CDC:
Ninety percent or more of vaccine recipients develop protective antibody to all three poliovirus types after two doses, and at least 99% are immune following three doses.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...oads/polio.pdf

Not
[ QUOTE ]
Your critique of capitalism fails to look at the higher living standards and quality of life it brought to the US and more recently India and China.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, there are countless multivariate analysis that take confounding factors into effect. There are 4 countries that currently refuse the polio vaccine due to religious (Islamic) reasons and those happen to be the only 4 countries that currently suffer from polio outbreaks. Of course if you listen to the nutters this is all coincidence.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]

Did these comnpanies who produced shoddy products prosper? I think not and that is the beauty of free market capitalism.


[/ QUOTE ]

There isn't much beyond an 'LOL' that this deserves.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]

You can insult my reasoning as much as you like but my historical facts are plentiful and accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what to say to that. Facts are meaningless without applying reason. It's how you think about the facts that matters, not the facts themselves.

But you should know that. I thought you were in academia or something like that.

Also, I'm *not* trying to insult you, I'm genuinely trying to point out that your arguments in support of various spending programs rely on a fallacy. You even resort to insulting others for simply understanding that your arguments are fallacious.

A typical exchange with you:
some poster:"Spending govt money on X is a waste".
you: "Are you crazy? the government invented [fill in here] due to their research on X. Do you want to live in a world without that invention?"

"Umm.. your reasoning there is pretty weak"

"You are a fool who doesn't know the facts".

Who's doing the insulting?



natedogg

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:

You can insult my reasoning as much as you like but my historical facts are plentiful and accurate.



I don't know what to say to that. Facts are meaningless without applying reason. It's how you think about the facts that matters, not the facts themselves.

But you should know that. I thought you were in academia or something like that.

Also, I'm *not* trying to insult you, I'm genuinely trying to point out that your arguments in support of various spending programs rely on a fallacy. You even resort to insulting others for simply understanding that your arguments are fallacious.

A typical exchange with you:
some poster:"Spending govt money on X is a waste".
you: "Are you crazy? the government invented [fill in here] due to their research on X. Do you want to live in a world without that invention?"

"Umm.. your reasoning there is pretty weak"

"You are a fool who doesn't know the facts".

Who's doing the insulting?


[/ QUOTE ]

hey hey hey let's get back on topic. the argument was that the gov could throw money at solar and give the RD a kick in the a** to get it going.

people say, hey gov is no good at going concerns (businesses), which is true, but RD it does have kinda a track record, including the computer, which was developed partially by the gov. well a lot by gov at beginning.

can't argue with that I don't think. no one is saying the gov can run a computer biz or anything, just that they throw money at something, get it started (like computer), then private industry takes over and runs with it.

by computer we're talking eniac or whatever, vacuum tube dealee.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Did these comnpanies who produced shoddy products prosper? I think not and that is the beauty of free market capitalism.



[/ QUOTE ]

There isn't much beyond an 'LOL' that this deserves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Give me an example of a company that is thriving by ripping people off so I can start loling. That only entity that thrives off rippoing off people is one that uses force to do it, like the Government.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Did these comnpanies who produced shoddy products prosper? I think not and that is the beauty of free market capitalism.



[/ QUOTE ]

There isn't much beyond an 'LOL' that this deserves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Give me an example of a company that is thriving by ripping people off so I can start loling. That only entity that thrives off rippoing off people is one that uses force to do it, like the Government.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are tons of companies that made money ripping people off. As an example, scammers who rip off old people through shady means generally don't go bankrupt because of bad publicity, they get caught by people who report them to the government. That doesn't mean I am for govt regulation, but you are naive to keep repeating this fallacy that the market cures all ills and nobody can profit through underhanded means or crappy products. I'm really getting sick of you free marketeers who have to make up these stupid assertions to defend your beliefs. Your beliefs are much more defendable without such silliness.

Edit: It's like if you want to argue that Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever, you don't need to assert that he can jump 40 feet and never misses from half court in order to do so. You only look like a fool if you try that and people are rightfully skeptical of your knowledge of basketball and suspicious of any other claims you might make regarding it.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Did these comnpanies who produced shoddy products prosper?

[/ QUOTE ]

They got filthy rich. In fact many of them are fortune 500 companies. In fact tobacco companies in the past have actually made their products MORE poisonous rather than less by adding toxic chemicals and radioactive polonium. That is until the lawsuits started rolling in. They knew exactly what they were doing the whole way. I'm willing to bet all those investigations executed by the CDC were a waste of time in your mind.

[ QUOTE ]
I think not and that is the beauty of free market capitalism.

[/ QUOTE ]

:-D

[ QUOTE ]
You should open your eyes a little on the polio vaccine which is suspected of causing cancer and evidence suggests he may not have even been much help in stopping polio:

Polio is virtually nonexistent in the United States today. However, according to Dr. Robert Mendelsohn, medical investigator and pediatrician, there is no credible scientific evidence that the vaccine caused polio to disappear [50]. From 1923 to 1953, before the Salk killed-virus vaccine was introduced, the polio death rate in the United States and England had already declined on its own by 47 percent and 55 percent, respectively (Figure 4) [51]. Statis-tics show a similar decline in other European countries as well [51]. And when the vaccine did become available, many European countries questioned its effectiveness and refused to systematically inoculate their citizens. Yet, polio epidemics also ended in these countries [50].

Full paper and footnotes here: http://www.thinktwice.com/Polio.pdf


[/ QUOTE ]

Well this isn't the first time you've linked to a crappy source. Maybe you should check out the discovery institute that claims evolution is a scam theory. Or how about the OISM which headed by "tobacco doesn't cause cancer" frauds. Oh wait, you already did that. If you want a serious discussion I suggest you stick to peer review with an impact factors 2 and above or an accredited scientific institution.

straight from the CDC:
Ninety percent or more of vaccine recipients develop protective antibody to all three poliovirus types after two doses, and at least 99% are immune following three doses.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...oads/polio.pdf

Not
[ QUOTE ]
Your critique of capitalism fails to look at the higher living standards and quality of life it brought to the US and more recently India and China.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, there are countless multivariate analysis that take confounding factors into effect. There are 4 countries that currently refuse the polio vaccine due to religious (Islamic) reasons and those happen to be the only 4 countries that currently suffer from polio outbreaks. Of course if you listen to the nutters this is all coincidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, poor sources on polio. Vaccines were developed by institutions that benefited from the results.

No one was forced to use tobacco, people use it because they enjoy it. Eating fatty foods kill you too, do you ever eat them? We make choices in life. Because you don't agree with someone's free choice does not mean they are getting ripped off. If a company were able to legally produce cocaine would you say they are ripping people off? People still buy and use cocaine.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Did these comnpanies who produced shoddy products prosper? I think not and that is the beauty of free market capitalism.



[/ QUOTE ]

There isn't much beyond an 'LOL' that this deserves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Give me an example of a company that is thriving by ripping people off so I can start loling.

[/ QUOTE ]

All of them. Corporations are evil and only the government can save us.

[ QUOTE ]
That only entity that thrives off rippoing off people is one that uses force to do it, like the Government.

[/ QUOTE ]

Corporations are evil and only the government can save us.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Did these comnpanies who produced shoddy products prosper? I think not and that is the beauty of free market capitalism.



[/ QUOTE ]

There isn't much beyond an 'LOL' that this deserves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Give me an example of a company that is thriving by ripping people off so I can start loling. That only entity that thrives off rippoing off people is one that uses force to do it, like the Government.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are tons of companies that made money ripping people off. As an example, scammers who rip off old people through shady means generally don't go bankrupt because of bad publicity, they get caught by people who report them to the government. That doesn't mean I am for govt regulation, but you are naive to keep repeating this fallacy that the market cures all ills and nobody can profit through underhanded means or crappy products. I'm really getting sick of you free marketeers who have to make up these stupid assertions to defend your beliefs. Your beliefs are much more defendable without such silliness.

Edit: It's like if you want to argue that Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever, you don't need to assert that he can jump 40 feet and never misses from half court in order to do so. You only look like a fool if you try that and people are rightfully skeptical of your knowledge of basketball and suspicious of any other claims you might make regarding it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Post of the Year, IMO.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Did these comnpanies who produced shoddy products prosper? I think not and that is the beauty of free market capitalism.



[/ QUOTE ]

There isn't much beyond an 'LOL' that this deserves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Give me an example of a company that is thriving by ripping people off so I can start loling. That only entity that thrives off rippoing off people is one that uses force to do it, like the Government.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are tons of companies that made money ripping people off. As an example, scammers who rip off old people through shady means generally don't go bankrupt because of bad publicity, they get caught by people who report them to the government. That doesn't mean I am for govt regulation, but you are naive to keep repeating this fallacy that the market cures all ills and nobody can profit through underhanded means or crappy products. I'm really getting sick of you free marketeers who have to make up these stupid assertions to defend your beliefs. Your beliefs are much more defendable without such silliness.

Edit: It's like if you want to argue that Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever, you don't need to assert that he can jump 40 feet and never misses from half court in order to do so. You only look like a fool if you try that and people are rightfully skeptical of your knowledge of basketball and suspicious of any other claims you might make regarding it.

[/ QUOTE ]

People demand and pay for products they value and shun and don't buy products they don't value. This notion that companies rip people off and laugh all the way to the bank is a Marxist fallacy.

I never said company's can't or don't rip people off, I am saying ones that do will not prosper. I asked you to give me an example and you can't. Even if you think people are getting ripped off they may feel that the product or service to them is worth the price. Why should YOU be the one to decide?

Not once did I say the free market cures all ills. I said free market capitalism fuels the best economies and the most prosperous nations throughout history. Inida and China are recent examples of economies that became more prosperous by allowing for more free market competition.

My point was and still is that outside of laws and resources to protect our persons and property from theft or destruction and our basic rights government intervention makes a system less effecient, not more.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
I never said company's can't or don't rip people off, I am saying ones that do will not prosper. I asked you to give me an example and you can't. Even if you think people are getting ripped off they may feel that the product or service to them is worth the price.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh, insurance industry is a lot of scam. I mean, katrina, half the people got denied because it got classified as flood for which they didn't have coverage, and half got denied cause it got classed as thunderstorm for which they didn't have coverage.

ok I made up some specifics but the fact is the insurance companies screwed everyhone in katrina and insurance in general is a scam and somtimes it is government forced (auto), sometimes private market forced (mortgage), and sometimes people just want to get screwed over, and then sometimes it works out for people cause you can't screw everyone 100% of the time cause then the dumbos catch on.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]

People demand and pay for products they think they value and shun and don't buy products they don't think they value. This notion that some companies and people rip people off and laugh all the way to the bank is an observation of reality.


I never said company's can't or don't rip people off, I am saying ones that do will not prosper, making clear that I don't understand what "ripping off" means. I asked you to give me an example and you laughed that the absurdity of my posts. Even if you think people are getting ripped off they may feel that the product or service to them is worth the price. Why should YOU be the one to decide, besides the fact that you have information which, if given to consumers, would make them not desire the products?


Not once did I say the free market cures all ills. I said free market capitalism fuels the best economies and the most prosperous nations throughout history. Inida and China are recent examples of economies that became more prosperous by allowing for more free market competition.

My point was and still is that outside of laws and resources to protect our persons and property from theft or destruction and our basic rights government intervention makes a system less effecient, not more, despite the fact that I have not defined basic rights or property or explained why the government should do that but not other things.


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Indeed.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
People demand and pay for products they value and shun and don't buy products they don't value. This notion that companies rip people off and laugh all the way to the bank is a Marxist fallacy.

I never said company's can't or don't rip people off, I am saying ones that do will not prosper. I asked you to give me an example and you can't. Even if you think people are getting ripped off they may feel that the product or service to them is worth the price. Why should YOU be the one to decide?

Not once did I say the free market cures all ills. I said free market capitalism fuels the best economies and the most prosperous nations throughout history. Inida and China are recent examples of economies that became more prosperous by allowing for more free market competition.

My point was and still is that outside of laws and resources to protect our persons and property from theft or destruction and our basic rights government intervention makes a system less effecient, not more.

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Exactly.

This is basically the same argument that comes up when talking about organized crime. When it's pointed out that organized crime only thrives in an environment filled with regulation (and hence, black markets) people invariably claim that "the mafia isn't just in black markets."

You *can* make money off of petty crime; bank robberies, protection rackets, purse snatchings. But you're not *creating wealth* that way. You're not going to make it on the Forbes 400 list. And while you might "make money" over the short term, such activities are -EV long term.

It's the same thing for ripping off customers. You might make some money short term, but it's -EV long term. Mark1808 said such actors do not "prosper" and "thrive". These are obviously long-term assessments.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

Honestly pvn, I'm surprised you would resort to supporting that post.

[ QUOTE ]
But you're not *creating wealth* that way. You're not going to make it on the Forbes 400 list. And while you might "make money" over the short term, such activities are -EV long term.

It's the same thing for ripping off customers. You might make some money short term, but it's -EV long term. Mark1808 said such actors do not "prosper" and "thrive". These are obviously long-term assessments.

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This "-EV", it does not mean what you think it means.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly pvn, I'm surprised you would resort to supporting that post.

[ QUOTE ]
But you're not *creating wealth* that way. You're not going to make it on the Forbes 400 list. And while you might "make money" over the short term, such activities are -EV long term.

It's the same thing for ripping off customers. You might make some money short term, but it's -EV long term. Mark1808 said such actors do not "prosper" and "thrive". These are obviously long-term assessments.

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This "-EV", it does not mean what you think it means.

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Huh? This is a standard poker situation. Something can make money short term due to variance but be a losing proposition long term.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

No, it's not a standard poker situation at all. The problem is that without very strong regulatory/oversight institutions (governmental or otherwise, institutions that have power and use force), ripping people off is very +EV short term. The only way one could consider it -EV in the long run has nothing to do with variance and more to do with the fact that people would eventually catch on.

The poker equivalent would be playing extremely nitty, which is very +EV until people catch on and actually exploit you, by which time they may already be cleaned out.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
No, it's not a standard poker situation at all. The problem is that without very strong regulatory/oversight institutions (governmental or otherwise, institutions that have power and use force), ripping people off is very +EV short term. The only way one could consider it -EV in the long run has nothing to do with variance and more to do with the fact that people would eventually catch on.

The poker equivalent would be playing extremely nitty, which is very +EV until people catch on and actually exploit you, by which time they may already be cleaned out.

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I agree that it is a very important and neccesarry function of Government to protect our property and our rights. Without this protection we would look a lot more like Russian capitalism!

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

As part of my bid to get more MSPaint into Politics.


http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6...ruptionfu4.jpg

How quickly you get caught determines the crossing point but given long enough there will be one.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, it's not a standard poker situation at all. The problem is that without very strong regulatory/oversight institutions (governmental or otherwise, institutions that have power and use force), ripping people off is very +EV short term. The only way one could consider it -EV in the long run has nothing to do with variance and more to do with the fact that people would eventually catch on.

The poker equivalent would be playing extremely nitty, which is very +EV until people catch on and actually exploit you, by which time they may already be cleaned out.

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I agree that it is a very important and neccesarry function of Government to protect our property and our rights. Without this protection we would look a lot more like Russian capitalism!

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And I agree that you haven't defined rights or explain why this should be the scope of government power or how this jives with your other complaints.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

tom,

Obvious problem is that:

1) Crossing point can be 15-20 years down the line or otherwise allow you to make a lot of money so that it doesn't matter.

2) Can't automatically make money the honest way, "cutting corners" will ALWAYS save money in the short run.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

I don't know how to reply to the assertion that in a society without government scam artists will be able to always make money ripping people off except by saying "Humans are smart enough and innovative enough to come up with a voluntary solution."

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
tom,

Obvious problem is that:

1) Crossing point can be 15-20 years down the line or otherwise allow you to make a lot of money so that it doesn't matter.

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It can be but it usually isn't and the market is about prevention not cure. A few oddball cases can't be the justification for a trillion dollar military ande the theft of 50% of everyones income surely?

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2) Can't automatically make money the honest way, "cutting corners" will ALWAYS save money in the short run.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't have any skills to make any money the honest way you'll never be in a position to make a "cut corners" decision. In general, in a free market people who are better at long term decision making will have more power.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

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I don't know how to reply to the assertion that in a society without government scam artists will be able to always make money ripping people off except by saying "Humans are smart enough and innovative enough to come up with a voluntary solution."

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No [censored]. And the voluntary solution is going to be an institution that has very government like function.

Also I just realized we are way the [censored] off topic.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
tom,

Obvious problem is that:

1) Crossing point can be 15-20 years down the line or otherwise allow you to make a lot of money so that it doesn't matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

It can be but it usually isn't and the market is about prevention not cure. A few oddball cases can't be the justification for a trillion dollar military ande the theft of 50% of everyones income surely?

[ QUOTE ]

2) Can't automatically make money the honest way, "cutting corners" will ALWAYS save money in the short run.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't have any skills to make any money the honest way you'll never be in a position to make a "cut corners" decision. In general, in a free market people who are better at long term decision making will have more power.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why I bother. This is just ridiculous.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
tom,

Obvious problem is that:

1) Crossing point can be 15-20 years down the line or otherwise allow you to make a lot of money so that it doesn't matter.

2) Can't automatically make money the honest way, "cutting corners" will ALWAYS save money in the short run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Saving money does not equal more profits if your product quality and the price it can command declines.

The less our laws are enforced the more profitable being criminal becomes. Government should always try to make the price and likelihood of being caught high.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
tom,

Obvious problem is that:

1) Crossing point can be 15-20 years down the line or otherwise allow you to make a lot of money so that it doesn't matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

It can be but it usually isn't and the market is about prevention not cure. A few oddball cases can't be the justification for a trillion dollar military ande the theft of 50% of everyones income surely?

[ QUOTE ]

2) Can't automatically make money the honest way, "cutting corners" will ALWAYS save money in the short run.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't have any skills to make any money the honest way you'll never be in a position to make a "cut corners" decision. In general, in a free market people who are better at long term decision making will have more power.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why I bother. This is just ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure why you get into these discussions when inevitably at some point you throw your hands up and in exasperation and say that you don't know why you bother anymore without explaining the clearly incredibly elemental thing that we're all missing.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
tom,

Obvious problem is that:

1) Crossing point can be 15-20 years down the line or otherwise allow you to make a lot of money so that it doesn't matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

It can be but it usually isn't and the market is about prevention not cure. A few oddball cases can't be the justification for a trillion dollar military ande the theft of 50% of everyones income surely?

[ QUOTE ]

2) Can't automatically make money the honest way, "cutting corners" will ALWAYS save money in the short run.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't have any skills to make any money the honest way you'll never be in a position to make a "cut corners" decision. In general, in a free market people who are better at long term decision making will have more power.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why I bother. This is just ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure why you get into these discussions when inevitably at some point you throw your hands up and in exasperation and say that you don't know why you bother anymore without explaining the clearly incredibly elemental thing that we're all missing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. If something is ridiculous tell us why it is ridiculous. How ridiculous can it be if you can't easily explain it?

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

I already explained it, that's the point. It's like in every damn thread all you do is bitch about the government, and I'm trying to discuss some specific issue and all you have is "blah blah theft blah blah trillion military Iraq".

If you have no oversight/regulatory institution, you are going to have people making money off of scams/lies/deceiving customers. This isn't some sort of theoretical discussion, this is just plain, obvious fact. It's not "-EV", it's not "a few oddballs". You will have people selling [censored] medicines, building shoddy houses, etc

Why? Because there's a buck to be made. You argue that somehow this is -EV in the "long run" but the run doesn't have to be long when I can retire off a few years of ripping people off, or just move to a new town and start over there.

Your second point isn't even meaningful. Making "long term decisions" is always helpful, but it's not like "cutting corners" is somehow not a "long term decision" if your business otherwise isn't competitive, or if you are old and about to retire, or if one of many other factors is in play.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I never said company's can't or don't rip people off, I am saying ones that do will not prosper. I asked you to give me an example and you can't. Even if you think people are getting ripped off they may feel that the product or service to them is worth the price.

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uh, insurance industry is a lot of scam. I mean, katrina, half the people got denied because it got classified as flood for which they didn't have coverage, and half got denied cause it got classed as thunderstorm for which they didn't have coverage.

ok I made up some specifics but the fact is the insurance companies screwed everyhone in katrina and insurance in general is a scam and somtimes it is government forced (auto), sometimes private market forced (mortgage), and sometimes people just want to get screwed over, and then sometimes it works out for people cause you can't screw everyone 100% of the time cause then the dumbos catch on.

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Insurance companies aren't the judge and jury just ask John Edwards!! People have a contract with their insurance companies, if they feel they have been defrauded it should not be much of a problem to find an attorney to pursue their case.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in History
 

Back on topic. If solar can be made price competitive private industry will find a way and profit greatly if successful. If Government takes money by force from successful entrepreneurs to invest in areas it deems fit you will have a more inefficient system. You are taking money from those with a track record of success and vested interest and giving it to Government which has a poor track record of success (education, health care, poverty, crime, etc.) and no vested interest.

If this were not true then why not just give all resources to Government control? Why wouldn’t Government be better to finding solutions to all problems in society (better food production, more productive machines, better medicine, etc.)? For those who think solar needs government spending why restrict government solutions to this one area?