Re: Justify procreation, please.
 

Let’s put it this another way. It is a selfless act to not have children.

Intentional procreating is all about ego, self gratification (not in the literal act of procreation, although obviously it is in that way, too) in enjoying what one creates, and subjecting one’s personal views on the unborn. (Dawkins term the Selfish Gene comes to mind here – again not literally speaking, but as an analogy.)

Not having children is a selfless act.

How one views selfishness, ego, selflessness and the like relative to Morality and Virtue is how one views my point. There is no right or wrong (because there is no Absolute Morality.) I think it is interesting though, to put it all in perspective.

Fwiw, I find selflessness a Virtue.

Didn't read your one post vhawk - I see you agree with me.

Re: Justify procreation, please.
 

Yeah except if I'm really kickass. Which I am. Thus, having lots of kids = selfless.

Re: Justify procreation, please.
 

[ QUOTE ]
And to answer your question, here's my justification:

I have faith that I can have a child who will be happy that he/she was born, who will have meaningful experiences and friendships, and who would rather be alive than not.

[/ QUOTE ]


Right, it is all about passing on your own views. That is a big part (but not the only part) of my point.

Re: Justify procreation, please.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not having children is a selfless act.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not having children because you don't want them is selfless? I think thats only true in the sense that not doing something you don't want to isn't really an act at all. Or is this some idea about people who want children but deliberately don't have them. Are we back to the altruism debate?

Where I agree with you is that people don't have children out of consideration for the children. They have them because they want kids and there's no good reason not to have them.

chez

Re: Justify procreation, please.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not having children is a selfless act.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not having children because you don't want them is selfless? I think thats only true in the sense that not doing something you don't want to isn't really an act at all. Or is this some idea about people who want children but deliberately don't have them. Are we back to the altruism debate?

Where I agree with you is that people don't have children out of consideration for the children. They have them because they want kids and there's no good reason not to have them.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously guys, I'm really awesome, I dont want to have kids but I owe it to your kids.

Re: Justify procreation, please.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah except if I'm really kickass. Which I am. Thus, having lots of kids = selfless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, didn't read your post when I wrote my last one. Good to see we are on the same page.

Re: Justify procreation, please.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And to answer your question, here's my justification:

I have faith that I can have a child who will be happy that he/she was born, who will have meaningful experiences and friendships, and who would rather be alive than not.

[/ QUOTE ]


Right, it is all about passing on your own views. That is a big part (but not the only part) of my point.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they were going to have my view I'd not bother. The universe isn't about me. or them.

luckyme

Re: Justify procreation, please.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah except if I'm really kickass. Which I am. Thus, having lots of kids = selfless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, didn't read your post when I wrote my last one. Good to see we are on the same page.

[/ QUOTE ]

And since everyone feels the same as me, having kids = moral, the exact opposite of your point.

Re: Justify procreation, please.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And to answer your question, here's my justification:

I have faith that I can have a child who will be happy that he/she was born, who will have meaningful experiences and friendships, and who would rather be alive than not.

[/ QUOTE ]


Right, it is all about passing on your own views. That is a big part (but not the only part) of my point.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they were going to have my view I'd not bother. The universe isn't about me. or them.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

The Universe isn't about anything it just is.

Re: Justify procreation, please.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If there is no God, then I postulate it is immoral to procreate. (Immoral is not the exact word, because given no God there really is no Absolute Morality. But, you get the idea.)

Having been born, I wouldn’t trade off, don’t get me wrong. But, why would one subjugate innocent children to a life of suffering that goes along with the joys in life? As I posted in a previous thread, I doubt if anyone is truly happy. (If I am wrong about that then, I must be wrong here. So, all you have to do is prove that happiness is possible.)

[/ QUOTE ]
I would subjugate an innocent child to the suffering of life if the joy was greater. I think you are wrong to suggest happiness is impossible - first counterexample, any atheist who is choosing to live rather than "end the suffering".

[/ QUOTE ]

I am talking about Happiness. Obviously, those of us who aren’t depressed are happy.

I am not saying it is impossible to attain Happiness (although, I think it is impossible – just not willing to lay it on the line). I am saying I have never met one who has attained it. I certainly wouldn’t buy that one says he has attained Happiness if he spends some of his life on message boards or playing poker – as we all do. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)