Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

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Sets and overpairs, but even against sets we're only a 40 to 60 dog so with the dead money in the pot it's certainly worth the try. Against KK and QQ we are favs, against AA its 50 50...

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Agree, but I would discount overpairs pretty heavily.

My point is that if he 3-bets here we are behind his range and thus have very little(or absolutely zero) fold equity to go with our pot equity. Globally, we end up getting it AI with MAYBE 50% equity. I don't think getting it AI is the best plan here. I am not saying that it is -EV, it probably is +EV. However, you have a good target in the hand. Go after the easy money.

If the stacks weren't as deep, or were much deeper I might just agree that a raise is ABSOLUTELY the best play.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

raise, call shove

hitting kills action, even against idiots + getting priced out of draws sucks.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

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Sets and overpairs, but even against sets we're only a 40 to 60 dog so with the dead money in the pot it's certainly worth the try. Against KK and QQ we are favs, against AA its 50 50...

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Agree, but I would discount overpairs pretty heavily.

My point is that if he 3-bets here we are behind his range and thus have very little(or absolutely zero) fold equity to go with our pot equity. Globally, we end up getting it AI with MAYBE 50% equity. I don't think getting it AI is the best plan here. I am not saying that it is -EV, it probably is +EV. However, you have a good target in the hand. Go after the easy money.

If the stacks weren't as deep, or were much deeper I might just agree that a raise is ABSOLUTELY the best play.

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threads:

you have an spr in the 5.x area. Also, getting all in with 50% here is great. I also think you underestimate the poor player's ability to call a raise here. As well, we haven't talked about raise size, we don't have to blast the flop either. Why are you discounting big pps here?

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

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Sets and overpairs, but even against sets we're only a 40 to 60 dog so with the dead money in the pot it's certainly worth the try. Against KK and QQ we are favs, against AA its 50 50...

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree, but I would discount overpairs pretty heavily.

My point is that if he 3-bets here we are behind his range and thus have very little(or absolutely zero) fold equity to go with our pot equity. Globally, we end up getting it AI with MAYBE 50% equity. I don't think getting it AI is the best plan here. I am not saying that it is -EV, it probably is +EV. However, you have a good target in the hand. Go after the easy money.

If the stacks weren't as deep, or were much deeper I might just agree that a raise is ABSOLUTELY the best play.

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threads:

you have an spr in the 5.x area. Also, getting all in with 50% here is great. I also think you underestimate the poor player's ability to call a raise here. As well, we haven't talked about raise size, we don't have to blast the flop either. Why are you discounting big pps here?

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I'm discounting PP's if we don't push and the guy pushes. I don't think he is playing this way with PP's(small bet and then push).

I should probably clarify that I think pushing is better than raising any other amount. The idea is to have some fold equity on our side if we are going to raise. We have to make 4 players fold. If we raise to like 6 and get pushed on then that just sucks. You are likely putting your money in with the worse of it at that point.

A lot of times pushing is the play in these spots, but I don't know that it is best here given that your target will come along and get stacks a really high percentage of the time that you hit your draw AND the CO will often check the turn(or bet an amount that you will be able to call).

Since my raise would be a push I wouldn't expect the poor player here too call that much. I would rather take the implied odds and get his stack when I have a hand then take a 50/50 shot with him.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

I think raising here is a lot stronger play in villain's eyes than pushing is.

Also, I'm not concerned about how much FE I have when my PE is so high.

I like pushing a lot more oop since we then have an awekward turn situation many times.

If we had a specific read on EP villain like he loves to c/r or whatever, I would see a call making more sense.

I missed that BB was in the hand. We're against 3 players not 4. I was thinking we are against 2 villains....I do agree that the presence of another player does make calling a bit more attractive. Another nice think is that an Ace gives us a straight but a donk make catch tp and marry it. The BB does help your case. However, the raise may look a bit more weak now the PFrer, since it looks like we're getting folks out, causing him to push with a wider range.

Long story short tho, I WANT ALL IN ON THE FLOP WITH AS MANY AS I CAN. However, we get that done...

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

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I think raising here is a lot stronger play in villain's eyes than pushing is.

Also, I'm not concerned about how much FE I have when my PE is so high.

I like pushing a lot more oop since we then have an awekward turn situation many times.

If we had a specific read on EP villain like he loves to c/r or whatever, I would see a call making more sense.

I missed that BB was in the hand. We're against 3 players not 4. I was thinking we are against 2 villains....I do agree that the presence of another player does make calling a bit more attractive. Another nice think is that an Ace gives us a straight but a donk make catch tp and marry it. The BB does help your case. However, the raise may look a bit more weak now the PFrer, since it looks like we're getting folks out, causing him to push with a wider range.

Long story short tho, I WANT ALL IN ON THE FLOP WITH AS MANY AS I CAN. However, we get that done...

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Fair enough. I am not saying that a call is a slam dunk or anything, in case I am coming off like that. It is probably a pretty close and hence why we are debating it. I tend to be a little more 'meh' about pushing AI with draws on flops than others, so this may just be a personally preference coming through. In this spot I still like a call better but you really could probably flip a coin or look to metagame.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

I think you have to push this on the flop, 1st you have fold equity and 2nd you don't want to get priced out of your draw on the turn evn if it means loosing a few people who would have called the flop

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

I almost never see a player call a flop raise oop and then donk the turn.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

One of the reasons I like a call moderately more than a raise here is that A's and 9's are such good cards for us. This is one of those hands where we can end up with everybody all in when we hit a card that makes us the nuts. I'm not saying that is going to happen every time, but there are a lot of lesser draws that and 1 pair hands that all of the sudden find themselves all-in or mostly all-in. For me that is worth a little patience.

If we had 8d9d or Qd9d, I think raising would be clearly better.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

actionstan:

I think those are good points too.