Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

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for me the most interesting decision here is the turn.

at first glance, i don't like the turn bet. if you didn't have the monster redraw i would agree with it because we can b/f. a high % of the time he's either folding or raising, i think and a free card sure wouldn't hurt us. the biggest drawback is that when a bet goes in(being that he's sort of passive) you are probably in worse shape than when you bet it yourself.

if i did bet/call the turn i would check/fold the river as you did.

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if i c/c turn am i c/folding all non Q, non diamond, non J rivers?

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against all but the most passive players, we can probably spend two big bets on the turn/river and showdown UI. when you show weakness by checking the turn, you expand the range against alot of typical(even semipassive) players and likely have enough hand to see it to the end.

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using this logic, then, why not bet the turn? if im seeing a showdown for 2 BB, then I call b/c turn and fold river UI, or C/C 2 streets. and I still get value from QJ.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

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being passive he would probably 4 bet the flop and check the turn being scared of the flush,

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Hmmm.. this seems an oxymoron to me. Passives don't 4bet anything that ain't da nuts.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

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for me the most interesting decision here is the turn.

at first glance, i don't like the turn bet. if you didn't have the monster redraw i would agree with it because we can b/f. a high % of the time he's either folding or raising, i think and a free card sure wouldn't hurt us. the biggest drawback is that when a bet goes in(being that he's sort of passive) you are probably in worse shape than when you bet it yourself.

if i did bet/call the turn i would check/fold the river as you did.

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if i c/c turn am i c/folding all non Q, non diamond, non J rivers?

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against all but the most passive players, we can probably spend two big bets on the turn/river and showdown UI. when you show weakness by checking the turn, you expand the range against alot of typical(even semipassive) players and likely have enough hand to see it to the end.

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using this logic, then, why not bet the turn? if im seeing a showdown for 2 BB, then I call b/c turn and fold river UI, or C/C 2 streets. and I still get value from QJ.

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After 3banging the flop I think weakness is shown by calling the turn rather than r/r. Not advocating a r/r, mind you. But from villain's perspective he has to know OP doesn't have a flush. If he's passive and raised the flop I'd rather c/c the turn and fold the river without seeing another [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Villain has either a straight or a flush, and if he's paying attention he's putting you on no better than a set on the turn.

Sometimes value is so thin that it's actually value for the opponent.

For me, the really interesting question is whether you could make a play for the pot on the river against our passive villain once the board pairs queens.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

Kit, I'd add aces to river cards I'd c/c.

Count, I can buy into J9 being in his range after the flop call and after the turn raise, but KQ is as well. He's described as "a bit passive," which is not (necessarily) the same as "zomg raise = nutz."

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

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for me the most interesting decision here is the turn.

at first glance, i don't like the turn bet. if you didn't have the monster redraw i would agree with it because we can b/f. a high % of the time he's either folding or raising, i think and a free card sure wouldn't hurt us. the biggest drawback is that when a bet goes in(being that he's sort of passive) you are probably in worse shape than when you bet it yourself.

if i did bet/call the turn i would check/fold the river as you did.

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if i c/c turn am i c/folding all non Q, non diamond, non J rivers?

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against all but the most passive players, we can probably spend two big bets on the turn/river and showdown UI. when you show weakness by checking the turn, you expand the range against alot of typical(even semipassive) players and likely have enough hand to see it to the end.

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using this logic, then, why not bet the turn? if im seeing a showdown for 2 BB, then I call b/c turn and fold river UI, or C/C 2 streets. and I still get value from QJ.

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this is a live hand. i "knew" it was live, but nonetheless i'm using online thinking. so that's my bad.

with that being said, do you think passive guy is raising QJ on the flop?

how often(if ever) does he bet QJ on the turn when you check to him?

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

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with that being said, do you think passive guy is raising QJ on the flop?

how often(if ever) does he bet QJ on the turn when you check to him?

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in the 10/20 games i play in, even the passive players will raise QJ on this flop. it goes with the territory of being "straightforward." when the average 10/20 raises a flop it means either top pair, a flush draw, or 2 pair. A passive player at 10/20 is considerably more aggressive than a passive player at 2/4, for comparison's sake.

it is very unlikely he bets the turn with it after i 3 bet the flop.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

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with that being said, do you think passive guy is raising QJ on the flop?

how often(if ever) does he bet QJ on the turn when you check to him?

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in the 10/20 games i play in, even the passive players will raise QJ on this flop. it goes with the territory of being "straightforward." when the average 10/20 raises a flop it means either top pair, a flush draw, or 2 pair. A passive player at 10/20 is considerably more aggressive than a passive player at 2/4, for comparison's sake.

it is very unlikely he bets the turn with it after i 3 bet the flop.

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yeah, your line is fine. nh.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

i don't see why you guys don't think a flush is made on the turn.
wouldn't this guy play this way with some low suited connectors?
he has position; he can easily let it go if he doesn't hit...

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

I haven't read all of the responses, but I have a problem with calling the turn raise and folding on the river. If you are behind on the river, you were behind on the turn.

if you're planning on check/folding that river, you should not have called the turn raise, IMO.

zip

edit: i reread the hand, and I suppose there's that nutty flush draw. hmm. not sure anymore.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

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edit: i reread the hand, and I suppose there's that nutty flush draw. hmm. not sure anymore.

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folding the turn with the nut flush draw and an gutshot straight draw is just beyond all measure of horribleness.