Re: Why do we steal with Axs?
 

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With Axs, when you flop a pair and a draw or even just the nut draw, you can play for stacks.

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Unless you're opponent is literally blind, do you really want to play for stacks with just a flush draw?

I agree that you can threaten to play for stacks with a flush draw, because of folding equity, but imo, if he calls your big raise when all you have is a flush draw, that's really, really bad news. Yes, you have outs, but you are a dog.

I agree that we can create the impression that we want to play for stacks, but in reality, we don't really want to.

This is the major difference between the flush draw and the set. With the set, their call is +EV for us. With a simple flush draw, we are -EV.

Re: Why do we steal with Axs?
 

There's a great episode of live at the bike with Barry Greenstein doing the commentary. There were two or three times where Axs made a pair and a draw and his reaction was always the same, "with that hand I'm just looking to get it all in."

It's such a big hand. You need to be raising like crazy with it.

I think it's worth saying again, you are not looking to flop the nut flush draw in the hopes of making it and betting for value. You are looking to exercise leverage on top pair hands and induce them to fold. You're looking to make the pot play big so that top pair hands can't continue. You get the added benefit of making second best flushes pay you off.

Re: Why do we steal with Axs?
 

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I agree that we can create the impression that we want to play for stacks, but in reality, we don't really want to.


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That's true. Most hands on the flop are one pair hands. We want those one pair hands to fold for the most part. If we happen to get both stacks in and are behind, we still have good equity.

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This is the major difference between the flush draw and the set. With the set, their call is +EV for us. With a simple flush draw, we are -EV.


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But you have to make a set before it has value. I think that's a key difference. That just isn't the case with any kind of big draw.

Now, if you are in a loose game where no one can lay down a hand, playing it fast loses some value. But, pots often play multiway, so you're draws are still good earners when they come in.

Re: Why do we steal with Axs?
 

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There's a great episode of live at the bike with Barry Greenstein doing the commentary. There were two or three times where Axs made a pair and a draw and his reaction was always the same, "with that hand I'm just looking to get it all in."

It's such a big hand. You need to be raising like crazy with it.

I think it's worth saying again, you are not looking to flop the nut flush draw in the hopes of making it and betting for value. You are looking to exercise leverage on top pair hands and induce them to fold. You're looking to make the pot play big so that top pair hands can't continue. You get the added benefit of making second best flushes pay you off.

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I agree. Sort of. But the nut flush and a pair is a hell of a lot different than a simple flush draw.

And again, this is the anomoly. How likely are you to flop the nut FD AND the pair? How likely are you to beat a smaller flush?

And if the strength is nothing but leverage, then f--- it. I can create leverage with a 72o just as easily as long as I don't have to turn it over.

Re: Why do we steal with Axs?
 

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There's a great episode of live at the bike with Barry Greenstein doing the commentary. There were two or three times where Axs made a pair and a draw and his reaction was always the same, "with that hand I'm just looking to get it all in."

It's such a big hand. You need to be raising like crazy with it.

I think it's worth saying again, you are not looking to flop the nut flush draw in the hopes of making it and betting for value. You are looking to exercise leverage on top pair hands and induce them to fold. You're looking to make the pot play big so that top pair hands can't continue. You get the added benefit of making second best flushes pay you off.

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I agree. Sort of. But the nut flush and a pair is a hell of a lot different than a simple flush draw.

And again, this is the anomoly. How likely are you to flop the nut FD AND the pair? How likely are you to beat a smaller flush?

And if the strength is nothing but leverage, then f--- it. I can create leverage with a 72o just as easily as long as I don't have to turn it over.

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well w/ the nut FD you also have an overcard to the board so you are practically coinflipping vs a non ace top pair hand or an overpair that isnt AA and you have a lot of fold equity

Re: Why do we steal with Axs?
 

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There's a great episode of live at the bike with Barry Greenstein doing the commentary. There were two or three times where Axs made a pair and a draw and his reaction was always the same, "with that hand I'm just looking to get it all in."

It's such a big hand. You need to be raising like crazy with it.

I think it's worth saying again, you are not looking to flop the nut flush draw in the hopes of making it and betting for value. You are looking to exercise leverage on top pair hands and induce them to fold. You're looking to make the pot play big so that top pair hands can't continue. You get the added benefit of making second best flushes pay you off.

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I agree. Sort of. But the nut flush and a pair is a hell of a lot different than a simple flush draw.

And again, this is the anomoly. How likely are you to flop the nut FD AND the pair? How likely are you to beat a smaller flush?

And if the strength is nothing but leverage, then f--- it. I can create leverage with a 72o just as easily as long as I don't have to turn it over.

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yeah you can try but if you actually want to create it you're going to get called sometimes and have to turn them over, so a NFD w/ 9-12 outs is obv a ton better than 72o

Re: Why do we steal with Axs?
 

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Axs first in in late MP and LP constitutes a mandatory raise for me unless there are reasons not to.

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Agreed. I have been taught the same thing. My question isn't "What are we doing?" My question is "Why are we doing it"?

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You are doing it for value. It has folded to you in late position and you most likely have the best hand. Of course, if your kicker is weak and you are reraised, without a specific read, you should fold. Otherwise you are probably way ahead and even if you aren't, a c-bet on pretty much any flop will probably take it down.

Re: Why do we steal with Axs?
 

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And again, this is the anomoly. How likely are you to flop the nut FD AND the pair? How likely are you to beat a smaller flush?


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Really what I was going for there was that a NFD + pair is so strong that you don't care whether you get called or not. You have terrific equity against almost anything the villain may have. With a naked FD, you'd prefer the villain lay down whatever he may have for the most part.

You can create leverage with 72o for sure, but you don't have the safety net. If you make the pot play big with 72, you hate a call. With Axs, it's not so bad.

Re: Why do we steal with Axs?
 

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I just tried to clean NotFreeMonies bug off the screen.... levelled.

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I called my wife in to help me! She didn't think it was as funny as I did!

Re: Why do we steal with Axs?
 

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Nut draws are so powerful because you can put tremendous pressure on your opponents with a really good safety net, not because you can passively draw.


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Wow, great quote!

Edit: I am a better player for having read this thread! Nice job guys!