Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

I think 3betting is an important concept so let me share my thoughts.

If my 3betting frequencies were on a graph it would look like 3 mountain tops. With the tops being my 3 separate starting hand requirements for 3betting and the troughs being the hands I would just cold call with. For instance, I will 3bet with my premiums:

AA,KK,QQ,AK. I want full value out of these hands and welcome action. When you raise you raise for value.

22-77. These hands play very poorly on their own so they need some help. 3betting these hands allows you to get more value out of them because your opponent will fold most of the time. If he does not fold they play pretty well post flop.

The last category is a big broader so I will list the general texture you want to be looking for.

Suited Connectors. The Higher the better. J10s is a 3bet while 56s is a muck.

Weaker Aces. A10/AJo. These hands don't play well enough post flop to warrant a cold call. I am in the 3bet or fold camp. You are 3betting as a bluff not for value obviously. In order to bet for value you would have to be ahead of an opponents calling range, which for the most part is not true.

Some hands I will NOT 3bet because they play too well postflop.

88-JJ. By 3betting these hands I am in fact destroying their value. Medium pocket pairs are good. Not big pot good but more like medium sized pot good. When I cold call with my JJ I am so far ahead of my opponents range that I will stand to profitably make much more than if I 3bet them.

It's deceptive. Opponents will be thrown for a loop when it comes time for showdown and you flip up JJ for an overpair while he was betting his top pair on the board on all 3 streets. It increases your range and effectively confuses your opponents.

High Suited One-Three Gappers: These are your Q10s,QJs K10s,KJs A10s,AJs AQs. These hands are strong enough to warrant a cold call, but if you are going to be cold calling with these hands you have to make moves on certain flops in order for them to be profitable. If you cold call with QJs and the flop comes 552 and you give up to a standard c-bet then don't bother calling preflop. This is a very important point and illustrates that the strength of your postflop play allows you to open up your preflop play.

AQ is strong enough to be lumped into the "High Suited One-Three Gappers" category. The tricky thing about Ace Queen is that you are so far ahead of an opponents raising range that it feels right to 3bet. But you are not ahead of an opponents calling range. This is why you should NOT 3bet it. If a hand has value, maintain that value. If a hand has very little value but HIGH potential value + fold equity than 3bet it. i.e. Small pocket pairs have very little intrinsic value but very high potential value. Suited Connectors maybe just be a 10 high on a hand chart but combined with fold equity/deception they can be the David to take down Goliath.

I hope this helps as you try to incorporate intelligent 3betting into your game.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

Good stuff, Speed. I'll be rereading this a few more times.

I was wondering if you could clarify one thing that seems to be contradictory. You say you will raise premiums like AA and KK for value. But later you say you will cold call with JJ:

[ QUOTE ]
When I cold call with my JJ I am so far ahead of my opponents range that I will stand to profitably make much more than if I 3bet them.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say a similar thing about AQ:

[ QUOTE ]
you are so far ahead of an opponents raising range that it feels right to 3bet. But you are not ahead of an opponents calling range. This is why you should NOT 3bet it. If a hand has value, maintain that value.

[/ QUOTE ]

So why not cold call with AA and KK as well?

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
AQ is strong enough to be lumped into the "High Suited One-Three Gappers" category. The tricky thing about Ace Queen is that you are so far ahead of an opponents raising range that it feels right to 3bet. But you are not ahead of an opponents calling range.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree, i like to 3bet this when i have 3betted my opponent alot preflop. He will less likely believe me and call often with hands like KQ or AJ or AT. I agree tho without history.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

Whang,

that's the whole point of this thread. AA and KK will get PF calls from a whole lot of lesser hands. AQ and JJ will not, in a vaccuum. It is obvious why JJ is ahead of a normal raising range.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

i guess i shouldn't answer for sppedlimits but i think what he's saying is that when you 3bet JJ and AQ you pretty often cut down your opponents range in an unfavorable way. You go from a solid equity advantage to a significant equity disadvantage. this is obviously balanced by gaining initiative and sometimes having position, but wheter it makes up for it is another story...

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

Speedlimits,

Are you talking specifically against a solid regular, because hands like TT/JJ have some random unknown's calling range crushed.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good stuff, Speed. I'll be rereading this a few more times.

I was wondering if you could clarify one thing that seems to be contradictory. You say you will raise premiums like AA and KK for value. But later you say you will cold call with JJ:

[ QUOTE ]
When I cold call with my JJ I am so far ahead of my opponents range that I will stand to profitably make much more than if I 3bet them.

[/ QUOTE ]

You say a similar thing about AQ:

[ QUOTE ]
you are so far ahead of an opponents raising range that it feels right to 3bet. But you are not ahead of an opponents calling range. This is why you should NOT 3bet it. If a hand has value, maintain that value.

[/ QUOTE ]

So why not cold call with AA and KK as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be cold calling with AA/KK against tougher opposition (Taylor Caby mentions this in a lot of his recent CR videos). But against unknowns it is more profitable to 3bet. Also by 3betting AA/KK you exploit a common leak and that is when people set mine by calling 3bets with 100BB effective stacks.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Speedlimits,

Are you talking specifically against a solid regular, because hands like TT/JJ have some random unknown's calling range crushed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am assuming 1-2/2-4 stakes where the competition is somewhat competent. You should change your 3betting/calling ranges if your opponent is a nit or a donk.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Speedlimits,

Are you talking specifically against a solid regular, because hands like TT/JJ have some random unknown's calling range crushed.


[/ QUOTE ] I am assuming 1-2/2-4 stakes where the competition is somewhat competent. You should change your 3betting/calling ranges if your opponent is a nit or a donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, it just sounded like you were saying you would play these types of hand in this manner against everybody which is obviously bad.

Re: Are we bluffing pf?
 

I'm more inclined to 3bet JJ/AQ oop. I'm not sure if this is standard for what you guys do, but it works for me.

I HATE playing them OOP and I really don't want to see a flop and have the pot taken away from me.

In position I'm fine with cold calling with JJ. A couple nights ago I posted a hand where I cold-called TT in position against a TAG, and 3 posters came out the gate saying WHY DIDN'T YOU 3BET? I forgot to reply, but that's fairly standard to me.

I feel like when I 3bet TT and even JJ in position, I become completely lost postflop.

Obviously against donks I'll 3bet them for value, but against TAGS I'm reconsidering the way I 3bet.